17 replies to this topic

[Malzel]

Ferro-fibrous armor confuses a lot of people. Descriptions say that ferro-fibrous armor provides 12% more protection per ton, and while that's technically true, it's misleading. Ferro-fibrous armor's actual advantage is that it weighs 12% less per ton, which is an important difference. Yes, 1 ton of FF armor (36 points) does provide 12% more protection than 1 ton of standard armor (32 points), but remember that we allocate armor by points, not tons. We can only put 18 points of armor on our heads, and 18 points of FF armor functions identical to 18 points of standard armor, it just weighs less. Thus, FF armor is purely a weight-saving upgrade, not an actual defensive boost.

Now that the facts are out of the way, is there a reason this is the case? Making FF armor purely a weight-saver puts it into competition with endo-steel, which it simply can't compete with. It's never a good idea to buy ferro-fibrous armor before endo-steel, which means FF armor is relegated to light and medium mechs that simply don't use many slots, so they can carry both weight-savers.

Why not change FF so that it weighs the same as standard armor, but actually provides 12% (or some other reasonable number) more protection, so that it inhabits its own niche and isn't eternally losing to endo-steel in the weight-saver war. The idea seems so obvious and natural to me, I'm surprised that it hasn't already been implemented. Does anyone else agree?


P.S. I really hope the rebuttal is not, "That's how it works in table-top!"

Edited by Malzel, 11 October 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

Well, unfortunately the answer is "because that is how it works in table top"

the biggest problem with changing this is the Stock Builds mechs come with. changing Ferro Fibrous armor would make any mech that comes equipped with it overweight unless they made a pass and adjusted armor values on them.

Also, more protection per armor point is what Hardened Armor is for:
http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor

half as many points per ton, but each point can take 2 damage. so either you have the same tonnage and half as many points (silly) or increased (even double) the tonnage for increased (or double) the effective HP.

[Zyllos]

This has been discussed sense closed beta.

For FF to change, it must retain it's 12% weight reduction as to not break stock builds. But allowing for 12% more armor to be equipped is a good idea to add.

The only thing to think about is Clan FF. It if retains the original bonus of 20%, it's also going to allow 20% more armor (which is pretty significant). But people will have to rebuild their loadouts.

The assumption here is that to gain the 12% bonus in armor, you armor weight has to go back to no "lighter" than standard armor because your adding 12% more armor. This is based on the idea that if you had 14 critical slots open for FF before hand (and already had Endo-Steel), you would have already maximized your tonnage. So attempting to add more armor, thus more weight, is going to require players to retool their mechs.

But, in the end, this change is to let players make a choice between equipping ES or FF. But I think what's going to happen is that FF will only be useful for heavier mechs because 12% extra armor on a Commando is pretty low. But, usually, lighter mechs can run both ES and FF, so this might not be a problem.

Either way...I would personally be up for making ES only equippable for certain mechs (those that come stock with it) while every mech can equip FF. But, I think for this to be implemented correctly, hardpoints will have to become more stricter because then the mech variant that is allowed ES will almost be superior due to open ended hardpoints.

Edited by Zyllos, 11 October 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

When we get Clan endo and FF, both will fit on any build that had just IS endo or FF. i'll totally take that extra %20.

[Zyllos]

FerrolupisXIII, on 11 October 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

When we get Clan endo and FF, both will fit on any build that had just IS endo or FF. i'll totally take that extra %20.

This depends on how PGI plans to do the tech.

If Mixed tech, then I think almost everything on the Clans side is just going to be a "different" version of the IS version.

If Pure tech, then I think FF will be pretty good on the other side, if true.

I personally hope it goes Pure tech.

[Malzel]

Good, I hadn't thought about the stock mech issue, so I'm glad there actually is a gameplay reason for the way it is.

In table-top, the only reason ferro-fibrous was used was because it was cheaper than endo-steel structures as a weight-saving measure. In MWO, cost is a pretty irrelevant factor, which makes ferro-fibrous a pretty irrelevant factor. I'd be interested in anything that might give FF a niche in a world where it's ignored by everyone save light mechs.

Giving a weight advantage and a boost to armor protection seems a bit much to me. What if rather than just giving a % boost to armor protection, it added the % to the maximum armor values available to the mech? So with a 12% boost, you could actually put 20 armor on the head, 138 armor on the Atlas' CT, etc? That would give you a defensive advantage, but you would still actually have to spend the weight to increase your armor values. Is that still too small of a bonus to be worthwhile for 14 slots?

Edited by Malzel, 11 October 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

Depends on personal taste. some mechs it would be great on, almost every light takes FF these days to get that 1 extra ton. mediums it is used every so often, really depends on builds. Heavy mechs its a rare sight, im usually out of slots by the time im thinking about the extra 2 tons FF would bring. Assaults, who gain the most tonnage NEVER have the slots. even with your suggested bonus to max armor cap, it would essentially just buff light mechs and a handful of mediums.

[-Muta-]

Little dumb question...

So having FF does not actually gives me 12% extra armor and makes my mech's armor stronger?

For example I have 526 armor points on my misery... So if I put FF would that make a difference (no weight wise but armor wise)?

Pretty confused sorry and ty

[Strum Wealh]

Mutaroc, on 12 October 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Little dumb question...

So having FF does not actually gives me 12% extra armor and makes my mech's armor stronger?

For example I have 526 armor points on my misery... So if I put FF would that make a difference (no weight wise but armor wise)?

Pretty confused sorry and ty

The short answer for the first question is, "no".

The longer answer (which also helps to address the second question) is, "what Ferro-Fibrous ("FF") Armor does is increase the number of armor points per ton (by 12% for IS-produced FF, or by 20% for Clan-produced FF), such that one can either carry 12% more total armor points for the same total weight by selecting IS FF Armor over Standard Armor, or carry the same number of armor points for 12% less total weight by selecting IS FF Armor over Standard Armor, or some combination of intermediate value, all at the cost of interior space (that is, critical spaces; 14 criticals for IS-produced FF Armor & 7 criticals for Clan-produced FF Armor) that could have otherwise been dedicated to other weapons and equipment".

However, it should be noted that BattleMechs' armor loads are not limited so much by mass as they are by the number of armor points that can be assigned to any section.
For example, each of the Marauder, Orion, and Mad Cat, all as 75-ton 'Mechs, are limited to a maximum of 231 armor points in TT, which would be doubled to 462 armor points for MWO.

• A (hypothetical) MWO Marauder with 462 armor points of Standard Armor would be carrying 14.44 (rounded up to 14.5) tons of armor (which would consume 0 criticals).
  
• A MWO Orion with 462 armor points of IS FF Armor would be carrying 12.89 (rounded up to 13.0) tons of armor (which would consume 14 criticals).
  
• A MWO Mad Cat with with 462 armor points of Clan FF Armor would be carrying 12.03 (rounded up to 12.5) tons of armor (which would consume 7 criticals).
  
• A (hypothetical) MWO Marauder or MWO Orion with 462 armor points of (not (yet?) implemented in MWO) Hardened Armor would be carrying 28.88 (rounded up to 29.0) tons of armor (which would consume 0 criticals).

Barring the use of Modular Armor (3070-era tech), each of the above would not be able to carry any more armor than 462 armor points (regardless of the armor type and points-per-ton of said armor type), because the limiting point ("the number of armor points that the internal structure can support") had been reached.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 12 October 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well here's a 5LL Misery with Endo and a 5LL Misery with FF

Both have 5LL and 21 DHS.
The one with Endo can mount a 310 and still have a spare .52 tons (could remove a DHS and add an AMS and one ton ammo).
The one with FF has to mount a 305 and shave off some armor on the legs.

So, if anyone is gonna use these upgrades Endo will often be better than FF, so get Endo first before FF.

Ccertain mechs benefit from both (such as most light builds), but many Assault builds generally don't gain enough benefit in running these either of these upgrades, but that's depending on preferred loadout and crit slot usage.

[technopredator]

Malzel, on 11 October 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Ferro-fibrous armor confuses a lot of people. Descriptions say that ferro-fibrous armor provides 12% more protection per ton, and while that's technically true, it's misleading. Ferro-fibrous armor's actual advantage is that it weighs 12% less per ton, which is an important difference. Yes, 1 ton of FF armor (36 points) does provide 12% more protection than 1 ton of standard armor (32 points), but remember that we allocate armor by points, not tons. We can only put 18 points of armor on our heads, and 18 points of FF armor functions identical to 18 points of standard armor, it just weighs less. Thus, FF armor is purely a weight-saving upgrade, not an actual defensive boost.

Now that the facts are out of the way, is there a reason this is the case? Making FF armor purely a weight-saver puts it into competition with endo-steel, which it simply can't compete with. It's never a good idea to buy ferro-fibrous armor before endo-steel, which means FF armor is relegated to light and medium mechs that simply don't use many slots, so they can carry both weight-savers.

Why not change FF so that it weighs the same as standard armor, but actually provides 12% (or some other reasonable number) more protection, so that it inhabits its own niche and isn't eternally losing to endo-steel in the weight-saver war. The idea seems so obvious and natural to me, I'm surprised that it hasn't already been implemented. Does anyone else agree?


P.S. I really hope the rebuttal is not, "That's how it works in table-top!"

I couldn't agree more, although I thought it was 20% saving, anyway I propose 20-25% extra armor instead of the 12%, I think it's only fair after taking 14 freaking slots that neutralize great amount of equipment you could carry to combat when you can afford the tonnage, also it'd make the combats more interesting and last a bit longer since weapons are very powerful and matches rarely end up at 15 mins time limit; more time surviving a match means more game-play and more fun in MWO.

Edited by technopredator, 12 March 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

technopredator, on 12 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

I couldn't agree more, although I thought it was 20% saving, anyway I propose 20-25% extra armor instead of the 12%, I think it's only fair after taking 14 freaking slots that neutralize great amount of equipment you could carry to combat when you can afford the tonnage, also it'd make the combats more interesting and last a bit longer since weapons are very powerful and matches rarely end up at 15 mins time limit; more time surviving a match means more game-play and more fun in MWO.

You're thinking of Clan FF Armor, vs IS FF Armor.

Clan FF Armor provides 1.20x the number of armor points per ton over Standard Armor (and consumes only 7 critical spaces), while IS FF Armor provides 1.12x the number of armor points per ton over Standard Armor (and consumes 14 critical spaces); there is no difference between Clan Standard Armor and IS Standard Armor.

However, the limiting factor for any given 'Mech is not the mass of the armor, but the number of armor points; a 75-ton 'Mech with 231 points (the most any 75-ton 'Mech can carry in BattleTech; double to 462 for MWO) of Clan FF Armor is no more well-armored than a 75-ton 'Mech with 231 points (double to 462 for MWO) of IS FF Armor, and neither of those is any more well-armored than a 75-ton 'Mech with 231 points (double to 462 for MWO) of Standard Armor from either tech base.
The difference is that 231 points of Clan FF Armor weighs less than 231 points of IS FF Armor, which in turn weighs less than 231 points of Standard Armor - hence the description of FF as "providing more protection (e.g. more armor points) per ton".

[MeiSooHaityu]

Pretty much I go with Endo due to the superior tonnage savings over Ferro. As it stands now, I only use Ferro when I need that little extra tonnage and have a lot of crit space to spare. It is a rare occasion for sure.

The mechs you need it most (Lights and Mediums) tend not to have the available crit space to burn.

I do use Ferro from time to time though. I am currently running a Catapult K2 that uses both Endo and Ferro.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1b8dc5f7381df91

It's just too bad that Ferro doesn't take up less crit slots due to its lesser tonnage savings. It might be a tiny bit more common if it did.

[technopredator]

I don't care about IS or Clan 'mechs, I want all 'mechs to have the option of 20% less armor weight or more armor points, if only Clan 'mechs are getting it and they get introduced in the game then at that point I'll stop playing because I have seen the specs of them and they're simply overpowered, the least PGI could do is give the same FF improvement to current c-bill 'mechs, if we can't buy clan 'mechs with c-bills, and even so I think it'd be only fair, in case you like your 'mech and wish to keep playing with it.

Edit: I just found out that some if not all those Clan 'mechs are also OmniMechs, that makes them even more overpowered over current available 'mechs and the more justifies my suggestion.

Edited by technopredator, 16 March 2014 - 12:38 PM.

[Chihuahuablend]

my major problem with FF armor: in 90% or more of cases, you'd save more weight and critical slots by switching FF armor to regular, then from single heat sinks to double. ferro needs a lot more benefit to be practical since it uses way too many slots most of the time to ever be practical for such minor savings.

[TehSBGX]

Presonally I think Ferro should give 5% damage reduction. It's not cannon but it makes ferro worth it :/

[Chihuahuablend]

the only significant way ferro could probably be practical: if we had to pay for repairs. Cannonically, the advantage of FF is it cost less and is faster to repair than endo steel skeletons.

[Strum Wealh]

TehSBGX, on 15 March 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Presonally I think Ferro should give 5% damage reduction. It's not cannon but it makes ferro worth it :/

See here and here.