104 replies to this topic

[GroovYChickeN]

Ghost heat is fine as long as they make it on a PER MECH basis not across the board.

This also would allow mech that are currently lacking in the game to have a place to shine.

Let the Awesome be the only effective PPC boat.

[HammerSwarm]

General Taskeen, on 15 October 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

These are considered boats, and they are an evil upon the Mech Warrior Race and the most overpowered builds and Mechs in the game:

AWS-8Q

• The 8Q is so much of a boat, with 3 PPC's and 28 SHS, that PGI purposely built heat sinks the way they are so it would lose
  
• The 8Q is so much of a boat, that PPC's were given 0 damage below 90m
  
• The 8Q was very Over Powered, and needed to be Nerfed.
  
• Note Here - Firing 3 PPC's, then 1 PPC was possible in other Mech Warrior games, since the the threshold was lower (how its supposed to be) (it was never possible to get away with 4-6 at once of these and not shut down, unlike MWO)

AWS-9M

• The 9M is also evil, nerfed by PGI heatsinks. Runs hotter than the Sun.
  
• Note here - 2 ER PPC, then 1 ER PPC was possible in other Mech Warrior games, since the threshold was lower (how its supposed to be) (it was never possible to get away with firing 3+ of these and not shut down, unlike MWO)

HBK-4P

• Nerf Needed - so heat sink design, + ghost heat happened

IF only they could fix the other systems that make boating such a problem.

[Void Angel]

Imperius, on 13 October 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

If you continue to use ghost heat in the game then remove the requirement of ammo on my ballistics. Ballistics were balanced though ammo and weight. Now we have energy heat mechanics too.

You could add armor to CT's since that is 90% of deaths and the only thing people seem to aim for.
You could split up the CT hit boxes, but since you're not good at hitbox making I suggest the above route.

Many different ways to fix this, and you chose ghost heat.

Come at me forum I can always count on you to derail my topics.

How to Alienate Friends and Influence People:

• Start by calling them lazy.
  
• Make silly demands to "offset" the mechanic you don't like.
  
• Suggest more bad ideas and silly "solutions."
  
• Be sure to talk down to your audience at some point while doing this - at least once!
  
• Allege that there were "lots of other ways" to change the high-alpha meta, and that the Heat Penalty system was clearly the worst of all possibilities.
  
• Actually invite trolls as a way to poison the well - everyone loves a good pre-excuse!

[Avatara]

Another problem with ghost heat that is not often brought up is the new player aspect. PGI has stated that the forum users are but a small fraction of the total user base. Where does it mention the heat penalties in the game client? mech lab? My father is a fan of BT (novels, and older games) If he decides to play. He won't spend time searching the forums for gameplay mechanics that should be readily available. If I'm a new player when will I find out how many LLs it takes to incur the heat penalty? Does it say anywhere that firing single shots won't punish you?

For the heck of it I decided to see if I could find the heat chart in the forums without using the search bar. I checked the New player section, the guides and strategies, then mechs and loadout. Then gameplay balance. Then I said to hell with it and used the search bar. (The chart is a command chair post.) Even using the search I had to leaf through a few forum topics to find the Dev created post. And I knew what I was looking for! Keep in mind that Ghost heat is not its official name, so hearing about it in game, or in a post is not going to help the new player find it.

In short they desperately need to make this info more easily accessible to the player base.

P.S. Also agree that ghost heat was a poor choice.

[Bacl]

Well at first they wanted to get rid of boats ( ppc mostly), not they ruined the energy weapons, missiles (LRM, SRM) and even few balitics but they suffer much less from that system.

All i see now is dakka dakka everywhere, if you cant mount ballistic your toast. You want to use PPC and you dont have jump jets get out of here! SRM6 ( x5) in a face of a shut down medium aiming at his CT blew his left arm off, REALLY?!

So as a stalker pilot since energy is not a viable main weapon but just a gap filler and the srm and lrm are to "unpredictable" to use, why would i even bother taking these out since they can only mount these 2 weapons?

Ghost heat was the stupidest attempt to fix an issue in all games i played. I'vs seen some stupid changes over the years but this one gets the laurels. The guy who even though about this system need to be but to PGI's customer services so he can have a feeling what hes done.

I know i' m ranting her and i might have gone a tad too far but for me the last time the game was fun it was before last July, i didnt mind back then being gunned by a 3xUAC5 or 4PPc mechs, lol even the 6PPc stalker did hit hard but it was so easy to counter. Or a splatcat sneaking on you, if the guy went into the trouble of dodging all the snipers, LRM, scouts and your brwalers to opo in your face ruin your paint job well give the credits for that, it wasnt easy to reach your target with 100% armor in a splat cat, and it was fun when someone on your team spotted a splatcat and you get an adrenaline rush because if that thing gets neer you, you are dead.

I miss that thrill now i know that if i even pop my head out of cover i will get AC fire in the face or get a poptart PPC AC shot. Not fun anymore.

[Almond Brown]

NextGame, on 13 October 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

ghost heat is a direct nerf to fun, and an assault against logic and critical thinking

cough (BS) cough It curbs the crazy Alpha strike Meta game that truly was un-fun. So again, your statement is simply cough (BS) cough.

[General Taskeen]

Almond Brown, on 15 October 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

cough (BS) cough It curbs bandaids the crazy Alpha strike Meta game that truly was un-fun. So again, your statement is simply cough (BS) cough.

It is a bandaid to their heat system, instead of redoing their heat system. The only reason high-alpha exists is purely due to heatsinks being able to raise your threshold.

So what it comes down to is this - what was easier for PGI to accomplish, redoing their heat system, or applying a stop-gap?

Since they said doing the "low threshold, high heat dissipation" didn't work (which we are not allowed to test), even though other Mech Warrior games did make it work, then the first option would logically be the best choice for redoing it instead of fixing what doesn't work, what they have currently.

Edited by General Taskeen, 15 October 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[KAT Ayanami]

Imperius, on 13 October 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Ghost Heat A Lazy Balance Mechanic.

We know. PGI knows.

We care. PGI does not.

[Noth]

General Taskeen, on 15 October 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

It is a bandaid to their heat system, instead of redoing their heat system. The only reason high-alpha exists is purely due to heatsinks being able to raise your threshold.

So what it comes down to is this - what was easier for PGI to accomplish, redoing their heat system, or applying a stop-gap?

Since they said doing the "low threshold, high heat dissipation" didn't work (which we are not allowed to test), even though other Mech Warrior games did make it work, then the first option would logically be the best choice for redoing it instead of fixing what doesn't work, what they have currently.

In TT, the heatsinks technically do increase the heat threshold. If you have 20 heatsinks, you can build up to 20 heat and not worry about shutting down when you check the heat penalties because your heatsinks sink it all before you check. If you have 15 DHS you can build up 30 heat and not worry about shutting down because your heatsinks sink it all before you check. THe only difference here is that it is done real time compared to turns that represent 10 seconds.

[NextGame]

Almond Brown, on 15 October 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

cough (BS) cough It curbs the crazy Alpha strike Meta game that truly was un-fun. So again, your statement is simply cough (BS) cough.

Alpha strike was not the problem, weapon convergence was the problem, and maybe a bit more heat needed on ppc's (they possibly have too much heat now, but I digress). What we have now is weedy 2 dimensional combat, as options in regards to how to play effectively are limited and cater only to people stuck in the stone age with their hand painted figurines.

There's certainly a better balance to be found from what came before, but it wont be reached via imposing arbitrary weapon limits, incalculable heat numbers and preventing diversity in gameplay.

TLDR?: Ghost heat is a direct nerf to fun, and an assault against logic and critical thinking

edit: spelling.

Edited by NextGame, 15 October 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Noth, on 15 October 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

In TT, the heatsinks technically do increase the heat threshold. If you have 20 heatsinks, you can build up to 20 heat and not worry about shutting down when you check the heat penalties because your heatsinks sink it all before you check. If you have 15 DHS you can build up 30 heat and not worry about shutting down because your heatsinks sink it all before you check. THe only difference here is that it is done real time compared to turns that represent 10 seconds.

And yet no game had the issue of insanely, enormous Alpha's of 6 PPC's. Or firing 4 PPC's at a time with impunity, before reaching critical (obviously now hampered by the "ghost heat" in order band-aid the high threshold). This is purely a product of MWO, which was the basis of my post.

All previous Mech Warrior Games have a fixed heat threshold that was much lower than MWO - which they balanced by simply going, "Hey what are the highest heat alpha weapon builds in TT, let's make sure the heat threshold is low to balance around that - oh and we'll make sure SHS work effectively while we are at it."

Edited by General Taskeen, 15 October 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[Taemien]

FupDup, on 15 October 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

Is this build a boat?

What about this one?

Or this one?

Or this one?


Why are the mixed builds I posted above getting ghost heat penalties? Kind of breaks your argument.

Weapon groups, you get six of them. Besides none of those builds are crippled by the heat effects. The group I run with has an Atlas config that runs 4 Large Lasers. When ghost effects came in all it did was give them once less alpha strike per heat count (as in before they hit 100% hit).

The ghost heat changes didn't prevent some builds from being made. the basis of everyone's argument is the assumption that if you fire 3 Large Lasers instead of 2 is that you overheat, explode, and get banned. But the actual fact of the matter is, thats not the case. 4 Can still easily be fired at once and even continuously over a period of about 10-15 seconds.

In otherwords, you all are making a mountain out of a molehill. They wanted heat management to be a conscious decision, not something that can be mitigated with 20+ DHS. Though if you do have that many DHS, you can pretty much fire for a while without having to worry about it. But eventually you do.

Like I said. People want less time in the mechlab, less skill needed to lead a target, and less thought behind pulling the trigger. Thats simply what is being displayed here.

Why not remove heat and ammo all together? Just fill in every weapon pod with the biggest thing that will fit and hold the left mouse button down? Why not go that far if you all wish to remove ghost heat? Thats not sarcasm by the way.

[FupDup]

Taemien, on 15 October 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Weapon groups, you get six of them. Besides none of those builds are crippled by the heat effects. The group I run with has an Atlas config that runs 4 Large Lasers. When ghost effects came in all it did was give them once less alpha strike per heat count (as in before they hit 100% hit).

The ghost heat changes didn't prevent some builds from being made. the basis of everyone's argument is the assumption that if you fire 3 Large Lasers instead of 2 is that you overheat, explode, and get banned. But the actual fact of the matter is, thats not the case. 4 Can still easily be fired at once and even continuously over a period of about 10-15 seconds.

In otherwords, you all are making a mountain out of a molehill. They wanted heat management to be a conscious decision, not something that can be mitigated with 20+ DHS. Though if you do have that many DHS, you can pretty much fire for a while without having to worry about it. But eventually you do.

It's not about being crippled, exploded, banned, having your firstborn son sacrificed, or anything else like that. It's just about the idea that GH does apply its penalty to numerous mixed builds out there, and that goes against what you've been saying GH is supposed to promote (the usage of mixed builds). Those builds have no reason to be penalized when you can do crazy stuff like 4 LRM5 + 2 LRM20 and not get a penalty. It's also kinda stupid that I could change that Jager A build to have 2 LRM5 instead of a third LRM10, and this would give me one extra ton to work with, reduce missile spread, and have no heat penalty.


As for heat management being a conscious decision, the only reason this is even a problem in the first place is because our capacity can go so high and our dissipation is so slow; and we lack penalties for running hot constantly. It basically promotes the idea of alpha-hide-alpha repeat because hiding minimizing the risk of being at high heat and spacing out your fire will still spike your heat bar almost as fast as alphai'ing.

20 DHS also don't mitigate heat buildup at all unless you dramatically skimp on the weapons department. Or you can just grab some autocannons because those don't need sinks beyond the first 10 in the engine (excluding the AC/2). All the cool kids are doin' it.

Taemien, on 15 October 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Like I said. People want less time in the mechlab, less skill needed to lead a target, and less thought behind pulling the trigger. That's simply what is being displayed here.

Why not remove heat and ammo all together? Just fill in every weapon pod with the biggest thing that will fit and hold the left mouse button down? Why not go that far if you all wish to remove ghost heat? Thats not sarcasm by the way.

GH doesn't accomplish more time in the mechlab, it just steers people away from the afflicted combinations similar to how people suddenly stop using weapon "x" when they read about nerfs to it in the patchnotes. The only way you're gonna make people take serious time in the lab is to make all weapons and equipment each have their own niche which no other item can obsolete them at. This way, there would be no "path of least resistance" for everyone to default to, and each choice would require some time to ponder instead of just "lol, slap on autocannons". With GH, you don't get rid of the PoLR, you just shift it somewhere else.

[Taemien]

Believe me, I think dissipation could have been altered instead. And I want to make something clear, just because I defend GH, doesn't mean I like it. I'm just placing it in the necessary evil category for the time being. Reason for this, is we all know dissipation would fix the game, right now, in its current state with the current equipment.

Would it do the same with future clan and advanced IS tech? I don't believe so. So while I may not like the change, I understand it and see it as a bigger picture sort of change. Thats why I say adapt. Its like ER PPCs and no minimum range and PPCs do. I don't like that in MechWarrior, I didn't like it in Table Top. But its there and we have to deal with it.

Clan mechs will be boat magnets. Some of their stock configs (Masakari, Blackhawk, Vulture, and Ryoken) are boats in themselves. We know dissipation wouldn't do {Scrap} to them simply because they can mount 7 more DHS then a IS mech can. And if you tuned it too much, everyone would cry about how they overheat too much. No one wants to run around in a Madcat with Just 2 ERPPCs and 30DHS.

This way they have to mount multiple weapon systems and be smart how they use them.

Is that how it will pan out? I have no idea to be honest. Its going to be one of those wait and see things. But its hardly a topic that needs to be addressed on a weekly basis right now.

[FupDup]

Taemien, on 15 October 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Believe me, I think dissipation could have been altered instead. And I want to make something clear, just because I defend GH, doesn't mean I like it. I'm just placing it in the necessary evil category for the time being. Reason for this, is we all know dissipation would fix the game, right now, in its current state with the current equipment.

That clarifies things. I had misinterpreted you as being a fan of GH.

Taemien, on 15 October 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Would it do the same with future clan and advanced IS tech? I don't believe so. So while I may not like the change, I understand it and see it as a bigger picture sort of change. Thats why I say adapt. Its like ER PPCs and no minimum range and PPCs do. I don't like that in MechWarrior, I didn't like it in Table Top. But its there and we have to deal with it.

Clan mechs will be boat magnets. Some of their stock configs (Masakari, Blackhawk, Vulture, and Ryoken) are boats in themselves. We know dissipation wouldn't do {Scrap} to them simply because they can mount 7 more DHS then a IS mech can. And if you tuned it too much, everyone would cry about how they overheat too much. No one wants to run around in a Madcat with Just 2 ERPPCs and 30DHS.

This way they have to mount multiple weapon systems and be smart how they use them.

Is that how it will pan out? I have no idea to be honest. Its going to be one of those wait and see things. But its hardly a topic that needs to be addressed on a weekly basis right now.

Speaking of the Clans, I don't think GH would even work on them. Primarily, lock-on missiles like LRMs and SSRMs don't get hurt nearly as much as direct-fire because they almost aim themselves in a way. For Clan LRMs, since they lack a min range, you'll be able to just set on chain-fire and go to town with a few LRM20 racks in a brawl without much consequence. SSRMs will be able to do similar but for less damage and more spread out. Setting the max alpha to 1 for those weapons won't have much of a negative impact on their performance due to their tracking systems.

Heck, even the Clan ERPPC might turn out crazy with a max alpha of only 1 (due to 15 damage per shot). Not all weapons are even on the GH list right now, so that leaves us to wonder if the Clan UACs 5 and 10 will find their way onto the list or not.

Edited by FupDup, 15 October 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Noth]

NextGame, on 15 October 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Alpha strike was not the problem, weapon convergence was the problem, and maybe a bit more heat needed on ppc's (they possibly have too much heat now, but I digress). What we have now is weedy 2 dimensional combat, as options in regards to how to play effectively are limited and cater only to people stuck in the stone age with their hand painted figurines.

There's certainly a better balance to be found from what came before, but it wont be reached via imposing arbitrary weapon limits, incalculable heat numbers and preventing diversity in gameplay.

TLDR?: Ghost heat is a direct nerf to fun, and an assault against logic and critical thinking

edit: spelling.

Preventing diversity? I see much more diversity in the game now that ghost heat is here. I see mixed builds, I see poptarts, I see AC boats, I see LRM boats. I see far more builds regularly than I ever did before.

Edited by Noth, 15 October 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Pht]

What I find very disturbing about this... is that here we are, rightly discussing ghost heat; complaining about it ... and yet the DEVS have stated in one of the NGNG podcasts that one of their ways of seeing if something they've done is balanced ... is that they look on the forums to see if people are complaining about it ... and if nobody's complaining about what they did, they suspect something is wrong with what they've done.


How, if this really is one of their "metrics," can ANYONE actually demonstrate - and I mean "demonstrate" in the sense the word is used in geometry ... that something is messed up to them?

Edited by Pht, 15 October 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Considering that PGI can't even fix all the ancient hit detection issues I think lazy fixes are all they're really capable of at this point.

[Victor Morson]

Paul was too busy playing Tetris at the launch party to hear anyone's complaints on Ghost Heat, I guess.

I do find it amusing a team called itself team Ghost Heat but they censored it on the podcast, though!

Edited by Victor Morson, 15 October 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Pht]

Victor Morson, on 15 October 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Paul was too busy playing Tetris at the launch party to hear anyone's complaints on Ghost Heat, I guess.

... as much as we disagree with the developers on things... um ... they're actually putting THEIR livelyhoods on the line for this game.

A bit less snark tends to be more effective.