41 replies to this topic

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Here we go again on the AC2s...the current cooldown is fine as Fast Fire has been confirmed as not currently working by PGI Daemur...it's generally long enough to avoid client/server timing issues with the extra 2/100ths of a second tacked on from the original .5 second cooldown (although there is still the rare desync where one gun in an alpha group gets out of time with the other(s)).

The reason that ghost heat is kicking in relates to stagger-firing 2 or more AC2s, so that you're not leaving a .51 second gap between shots and not letting the heat penalty timer reset, for example when you have 2 AC2s and you alternate firing each gun every .26 seconds. Why they have a reset timer instead of looking at the actual number of shots in a particular window of time is beyond me...must be too hard to program it that way.

The base heat on AC2s more than compensates for the slight DPS that it has over an AC5...you can fire an AC5 all day, but an AC2 is very situational. What they need to do is spare the AC2 from the heat penalty system, because its base heat alone is penalty enough.

[Shadey99]

JagdFlanker, on 14 October 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

having played this continuously for the last 3 months i can safely tell you you'r going to be in BIG heat trouble on the hot maps. and the ammo in the CT? bad idea - if you'r not wasteful 5t of ammo will last to the end of the/your match near all the time

The ammo is in the CT as I know the rounds in the head and the CT won't last long, making them safe as anywhere else (it feeds head then CT in this design and at 3 rounds every ~half second that goes quick)... And I run dual AC2+dual AC5 Jagers, so I have a good idea how much heat that is... Your meant to fire for ~10 seconds, then retreat and cool down... Good for burst supression. A more practical build runs dual AC2s, but with three ballistics I can't help but be tempted to run 3 (after all nothing else besides MGs would work)...

Btw the scaled down Dual AC2 SHD-2H is the alternative. Much more heat efficient as you will run out of ammo before you overheat. Nearly perfectly as one minute and 13 seconds (the time to overheat on dual AC2s with that build) is 421 rounds used.

Edited by Shadey99, 15 October 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[CrashieJ]

FupDup, on 14 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Actually they can't. 10 SHS dissipate 1 heat per second. 1 AC/2 generates 1.92 heat per second, which is almost twice as much heat as the SHS mech can dissipate.

No mechs in the game even have enough tonnage to carry that many AC/2, and if we did ever get variants that could handle it they would still be better off boating any of the larger AC sizes or Gauss.

actually that seems reasonable with a 5:1 ratio for SHS and a 3:1-2:1 ratio for DHS.

you gotta remember that you're not really meant to stay in one spot and fire, you're supposed to break fighting to cool off and swap positions.

also the closest thing to 6 AC2s was the 5 AC2 "RIPSAW" Jager with burst-chainfire macro.

the sound that came from it was hella scary.

[Victor Morson]

• AC/2s are not OP.
  
• Ghost Heat is still stupid and the main reason AC/2s are actually terrible.

[FinsT]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 14 October 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Here we go again on the AC2s...the current cooldown is fine as Fast Fire has been confirmed as not currently working by PGI Daemur. ...

This is interesting. I have reasons to doubt it. I'll test dual AC/2, linked fire, in-game - on mechs with and without Fast Fire. Can't do it right now, but hopefully will do it later today.

[Gozer]

I enjoy my Triple AC/2 Founder Hunchback setup though I will agree it overheats fast! (Also It's amazing how fast you can go through 800 rounds of ammo! O.O!)

I have no problems with them lowering the firing rate IF that caused ghost heat, though I don't think that's the cause. Then again I'm for them removing ghost heat in general.

[OznerpaG]

Shadey99, on 14 October 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

The ammo is in the CT as I know the rounds in the head and the feet won't last long, making them safe as anywhere else (it feeds head then CT in this design and at 3 rounds every ~half second that goes quick)... And I run dual AC2+dual AC5 Jagers, so I have a good idea how much heat that is... Your meant to fire for ~10 seconds, then retreat and cool down... Good for burst supression. A more practical build runs dual AC2s, but with three ballistics I can't help but be tempted to run 3 (after all nothing else besides MGs would work)...

there's a feed order? i assumed it takes ammo equally from all ammo crits - how can anyone know what order the ammo is fed from the crits?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

JagdFlanker, on 15 October 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

there's a feed order? i assumed it takes ammo equally from all ammo crits - how can anyone know what order the ammo is fed from the crits?

It's at least known by section: http://mwomercs.com/...mmo-being-used/

[FinsT]

Word is, there is a feed order indeed. Have seen it stated in many places. But have never seen any concrete details. Well...

1 minute later: search is a friend.

edit: geez, outdated page, i'm too late! %)

Edited by FinsT, 15 October 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Shadey99]

JagdFlanker, on 15 October 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

there's a feed order? i assumed it takes ammo equally from all ammo crits - how can anyone know what order the ammo is fed from the crits?

Even though Praetor beat me to it, the general order is: Head -> CT -> RT -> LT -> LA -> RA -> LL -> RL

So the ammo in your head goes first, then CT, then side torsos, arms, and finally legs. Hence I know it will eat up the ammo in the head and CT quick. Heck a 10 second burst from 3xAC2 is ~57 rounds if I did my math correctly and with 75 ammo in the head I'll have nearly used it up. A 15 second burst (full max before shutdown without bonuses) is ~86 rounds and a 20 second burst (full elited max before shutdown) is 115 rounds.

[AC]

I feel two things should happen to the AC2. The ROF needs to be reduced so that it doesn't overheat as quickly and its damage output doesn't outshine the AC5. Second, the ghost heat limits need to be eliminated for this weapon. AC2's in battle tech were designed to be boated. The Bane comes to mind, and what did it have? 8 AC2's? The Mauler carried 4 AC2's, and heck... they even had tanks like the AC carrier that boated them. This weapon is suppose to be boated and boated without a ghost heat penalty.

Secondary issue, the ROF on the UAC5 is too high causing it to outshine all other autocannons. The UAC5 needs a closer look.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Factoring in the AC2's base heat and ignoring the heat penalty for now, if you ran 3 AC2s, your heat would build up a lot faster than if you ran 3 AC5s, so fairly quickly you would have to cease fire on the AC2s to cool down (I believe I've been able to shoot 3 AC2s about 21 times before overheating, so 63 rounds downrange) while someone boating 3 AC5s could keep firing well after 63 rounds for more total damage. Upfront damage for an AC2 might be slightly better (11.5 DPS with 3), but over the long run, the AC5 (10 DPS with 3) can dish out more continuous damage due to its better damage/heat ratio. Slowing down the ROF of the AC2 even more would minimize one of its benefits, the short burst of damage before having to stop and cool your guns. Even then, in 10 seconds before overheating, 3 AC2s can only do 15 more total damage than 3 AC5s. Making the AC2's recycle rate equal to .6 seconds would give it the exact same DPS as an AC5, but who would choose to use it if the base heat does not also change, as you're a lot more heat efficient for a couple more tons with an AC5, and 5 pts of damage on one component is more efficient than 2. Lets really look at the numbers before calling for a ROF change, especially for a heat-gimped ballistic like the AC2.

[OznerpaG]

Praetor Shepard, on 15 October 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

It's at least known by section: http://mwomercs.com/...mmo-being-used/

FinsT, on 15 October 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Word is, there is a feed order indeed. Have seen it stated in many places. But have never seen any concrete details. Well...

1 minute later: search is a friend.

edit: geez, outdated page, i'm too late! %)

Shadey99, on 15 October 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Even though Praetor beat me to it, the general order is: Head -> CT -> RT -> LT -> LA -> RA -> LL -> RL

So the ammo in your head goes first, then CT, then side torsos, arms, and finally legs. Hence I know it will eat up the ammo in the head and CT quick. Heck a 10 second burst from 3xAC2 is ~57 rounds if I did my math correctly and with 75 ammo in the head I'll have nearly used it up. A 15 second burst (full max before shutdown without bonuses) is ~86 rounds and a 20 second burst (full elited max before shutdown) is 115 rounds.

just did a test with my victor - no matter what i do it starts RL first so it's either mech specific or they'v since changed the feed order

[DeadlyNerd]

El Bandito, on 14 October 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

I agree that the heat penalty should be removed from AC2s. However, the rate of fire needs to be slowed down because the DPS is pretty damn high.

Yeah, dat dps when they get in your minimum 120m range. AC/2 is(well was anyway) a skilled player's weapon where those that could outmaneuver the enemy reaped the benefits of the high rate of fire. Those who just stood still got their *** handed to them.

AC/2 didn't have an OP status to begin with. Paul probably got his *** handed to him and ran crying to Bryan. "Daddy daddy daddy, that mean jagermech gave me an atomic wedgie with his AC/2s. I want them nerfed!" "Nobody touches my little girl! Down with the AC/2!"

[Victor Morson]

El Bandito, on 14 October 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

I agree that the heat penalty should be removed from AC2s. However, the rate of fire needs to be slowed down because the DPS is pretty damn high.

I'd disagree because while the DPS is high, it's scattered trash-damage. The AC/2 wasn't very good before because it wouldn't focus the damage into a single area, and the same is really true about it; it also requires "sustained fire" to get any notable damage out of it, which means everyone with sniping weapons will blow you away unless you can managed to be ignored, primarily in pugs.

The AC/5 is getting very popular because the longer cooldown / more damage per shot allows for way more evasive piloting and decent single-shot salvos.

DeadlyNerd, on 15 October 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

AC/2 didn't have an OP status to begin with. Paul probably got his *** handed to him and ran crying to Bryan. "Daddy daddy daddy, that mean jagermech gave me an atomic wedgie with his AC/2s. I want them nerfed!" "Nobody touches my little girl! Down with the AC/2!"

Replace Paul with "newbie pugs" and you have a pretty accurate recreation of what happened. PGI massively overreacted to people who saw their cockpit get rattled a bunch and thought the apocalypse arrived.

[FinsT]

Alright, i did some testing.

Test 1. Testing grounds, forest colony snow.
- a mech without fast fire, 2 linked AC/2 in group 1, 300 rounds initially, 10 double heatsinks built in in the engine. Group 1 button held down. Overheated after firing 134 rounds (iirc),
- another mech with fast fire, 2 linked AC/2 in group 1, 300 rounds initially, 10 double heatsinks built in in the engine. Group 1 button held down. Overheated after firing 132 rounds (iirc), - just one volley different. Pretty same in my book.

Testing grounds say that Daemur is right, Fast Fire doesn't work or at least does not produce ghost heat from AC/2 linked fire (as i'd expect it to, seeing 0.49s cooldown mentioned in Smurfy's main page - hover your mouse over an AC/2 cooldown time in the ballistic weapons table, and you'll see a popup mentioning 0.49s, and i thought Smurfy can be trusted).

However!

I definitely had "overheating too fast, can't be so huge heat!" issues in actual gameplay some ~2 weeks ago. And yes, i was using AC/2s all linked together. So it couldn't be what was explained about alternating group fire so that there would be much less than 0.5s between AC/2 shots. Therefore, i did

Test 2. Jager with 3 AC/2 (3 is max possible alpha for AC/2, according to Smurfy's). Loaded it with 750 ammo, XL 275, and 7 additional double heatsinks (so it's 17 total, as shown in in-game mechlab).
- Went to a game. The map happened to be River city. Went across the river with the team, and once Jager stepped on a dry surface, i held down group 1 button (all 3 AC/2s linked into it), shoting ground ahead of the mech. I didn't release the button until the mech overheated, and i made sure not to get close to water, staying in city. I also ensured i have full throttle for the whole duration of fire.
> Result: 606 rounds remaining upon overheat shutdown (i.e., 144 shots fired before overheat). <
And then,
- Went to a testing grounds. Same map - River city. Same mech - didn't touch a thing. Did very same thing. Overheated. Result: 636 rounds remaining upon overheat shutdown (i.e., 114 shots fired before overheat).

Now how THAT huge difference be explained? I am totally lost; expected it'd be less shots until overheat in the game, - suspected that fluctuating lag may actually make many shots to get "into" "same" 0.5s period. But it's the opposite - less shots till overheat in testing grounds than in live game! ><

I even made another very same try right then and there, thinking something could go wrong in the 1st try; and in this 2nd try, doing everything very same way as both in-game and in 1st testing grounds try - spent ammo further from 636 to 510: i.e., 126 shots fired before overheat. That's right in between two earlier results!

So i tell ya, something's strange with AC/2. Perhaps sometimes it indeed gets much hotter than it should be in live games? Or may be some little differences in movement somehow affect heat dissipation massively? I have no idea. It's easy to reproduce the method i just described above. Please, help me to understand what my results mean. I am at a complete loss... ><

edit: the jager in test 2 had Fast Fire unlocked, as well as all other "skills", including additional module.

Edited by FinsT, 15 October 2013 - 07:26 PM.

[Morikuro]

Vodrin Thales, on 14 October 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Does anyone remember what a complete waste of tonnage an AC2 was in TT? I like that PGI found a way of making them viable without allowing them to be completely overpowered.

But they were alright if you wanted to try for long range golden BB shots.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

FinsT...none of your mech efficiencies apply in Testing Grounds...no Fast Fire, no Heat Containment or the other cooling efficiency, so what you were noticing on River City getting more rounds downrange than in Testing Grounds is explained by having your cooling efficiencies apply in an actual match and not in the Testing Grounds.

PGI Daemur happened to test his setup in an actual game mode on the test server, where Fast Fire would apply as well as all the mech efficiencies related to heat, and with alpha group-fire, had no issues with Fast Fire triggering the heat penalty by knocking the recycle rate below .5 seconds...which pretty much led to the discussion that Fast Fire is not currently a working efficiency.

[FinsT]

I stand educated. Thank you very much, Sarsaparilla Kid!

However, what remains a mystery is why i had different results doingthe same thing in two testing grounds attempts in test 2. To remind, 1st try i overheated shooting 114 rounds, 2nd try i overheated shooting 126. That's 4 volleys, and is well out of any rounding errors or such, i guess?

P.S. Any star bottle caps recently? Any chance you have the necklace? If you do, can i just meet you in the game for a little talk? I just want to look it at, really. Just a little. May be travel together a bit, too...

Edited by FinsT, 17 October 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

FinsT, on 17 October 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I stand educated. Thank you very much, Sarsaparilla Kid!

However, what remains a mystery is why i had different results doingthe same thing in two testing grounds attempts in test 2. To remind, 1st try i overheated shooting 114 rounds, 2nd try i overheated shooting 126. That's 4 volleys, and is well out of any rounding errors or such, i guess?

P.S. Any star bottle caps recently? Any chance you have the necklace? If you do, can i just meet you in the game for a little talk? I just want to look it at, really. Just a little. May be travel together a bit, too...

Lol...I had to look up the star bottle cap reference...I don't play Fallout, actually. My handle just came from liking Sarsaparilla and Root Beer drinks, and I added the Kid part to make it sound more like an Old West gunfighter.

No clue why you had a slightly different result, but it's probably not far enough off to get too excited about it.