50 replies to this topic

[Rabcor]

Quote

Don't hate the player, hate the game

The problem with that rule here is that PGI aren't the player, they're the developer and since so many people already loved battletech they can't bring themselves to hate the game, but they can hate the developers instead (bang shotgun to the foot)

That's probably one of the bigger reasons why things ended up in the mess they are now.

I don't insult, at least not on the internet, i only "criticize" like you said. I say "they're bad, because...". But i think it is ok, and in fact a lot better if insults are thrown at an entire company rather than it's individual members, throw something at a specific person and you're making it personal, it'll hurt that person a lot more than if you blame their entire company for it, and the entire company is indeed to blame for the mistakes of all of its members, if its members make frequent mistakes that indeed means "bad management".

But yeah peolple don't see "PGI made MWO and i don't like the game" people see "PGI ruined MWO" and even if i'm no battletech fan i actually agree with that point of view. The game had a huge potential and PGI is blowing it all away from what i see i don't know why, i don't know how, but i know that they are, so i can see why so many players share that opinion.

Roadbeer, on 15 October 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Departing from my norm in K Town and actually remaining topical.

Looking through some of the posts and seeing the same names I've seen around here for a while, the FIRST moment that SC does something they don't like or agree with, like petulant children, they will ignite the forums over there, and keep it running needlessly ad nausium.

Good riddance, and actually, it's turned me off of wanting to try SC with them over there.

P.S. Once they do, that "Freedom of Speech" you bandy about having over there, will vaporize.
Used to be that way around here too early on.

As for the players raging here being on the Star Citizen forums, dude... every community has rotten apples, every last community has them, yet not all of these communities fail. The reason things went sour here is not because some people raged, it's because tons upon tons of people raged. And sure Star Citizen will at some point do something that the community wont like, but they DO listen to the community unlike PGI. They listen very well and carefully, they fix the bugs pointed out, they allow the community to help them make some choices through polls, the moment a player rages, usually tons of people who disagree will quiet him down and sing him a lullaby or whatever, but the reason things went sour here is because the amount of people raging outnumbered the people who didn't.

The SC forums are very very well moderated (in my opinion) and most of its members seem to be pretty fine to me so far, most topics i've read have been pretty mature there, sure that may change a bit by the time the game will release, but i highly doubt that they'll remove the freedom of speech, that wont happen because the SC developers rather than playing a "victim" or asking its playerbase for pity... actually listen, and reply to the community and usually do so in a comprehensive and even constructive way. They so far nothing indicates that those developers would ever say what PGI did.

(Roughly) this that is:

"We're sorry that we lied to y'all and that you hate the game now for it, but we're just gonna do nothing about it"

But as someone else said, theres no game yet so i can't really be certain yet, but i am pretty convinced, i mean... There was a lot of rage in the League of Legends community, but did it fall apart because of it? no.

Edited by Rabcor, 15 October 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Yeah, um, July 31 of this year as your join date and you feel qualified to discuss what's gone on around here?

They're so cute when they're young.

[dal10]

star citizen forums talking about mwo.

Roadbeer, on 15 October 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Yeah, um, July 31 of this year as your join date and you feel qualified to discuss what's gone on around here?

They're so cute when they're young.

Yeah, um, July 31 of last year as your join date and you feel qualified to discuss what's gone on around here?

They're so cute when they're young.

[Roadbeer]

dal10, on 15 October 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

star citizen forums talking about mwo.


Yeah, um, July 31 of last year as your join date and you feel qualified to discuss what's gone on around here?

They're so cute when they're young.

Touche

But in my defense,

I had to get divorced

to free up the time to play.

Totally worth it.

Edited by Roadbeer, 15 October 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[Rabcor]

Well am i wrong? don't disregard me just because i joined late also, you shouldn't be jealous just because i'm younger than you and yeah good point Destined, this discussion got derailed pretty fast

Edited by Rabcor, 16 October 2013 - 12:14 AM.

[Egomane]

Rabcor, on 15 October 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

The problem with that rule here is that PGI aren't the player, they're the developer and since so many people already loved battletech they can't bring themselves to hate the game, but they can hate the developers instead (bang shotgun to the foot)

They can hate PGI all they want, as long as they don't use insults and defamation to express this hate. That's the problem! The haters are unable or unwilling to accept that they are hurting people with their behavior. As we tried long and hard to reason with them, gave them several warning shots and chances, I'm pretty sure they are unwilling to change their behavior.

Rabcor, on 15 October 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

That's probably one of the bigger reasons why things ended up in the mess they are now.

I don't insult, at least not on the internet, i only "criticize" like you said. I say "they're bad, because...". But i think it is ok, and in fact a lot better if insults are thrown at an entire company rather than it's individual members, throw something at a specific person and you're making it personal, it'll hurt that person a lot more than if you blame their entire company for it, and the entire company is indeed to blame for the mistakes of all of its members, if its members make frequent mistakes that indeed means "bad management".

But yeah peolple don't see "PGI made MWO and i don't like the game" people see "PGI ruined MWO" and even if i'm no battletech fan i actually agree with that point of view. The game had a huge potential and PGI is blowing it all away from what i see i don't know why, i don't know how, but i know that they are, so i can see why so many players share that opinion.

With that reason you can also insult all americans for they invaded the irak in 2001 unjustified. I would never do that. There were a lot of people against the war and even more changed their minds about it after some time had passed. The only persons truely to blame are Bush and his advisors. I still wouldn't insult them publicly. I believe they commited a crime and should be court martialed, but that is my believe only and I would never act against them, because my feelings and believes were betrayed by them.

Yes... real world politics... doesn't belong in the MWO forums. I just wrote that, to give you a real world example of why your view is wrong. Replace President and advisors with CEOs and replace nation with company and you have basically the same structure. It's not the nation that is responsible and it is not the company to blame. It's always the ones making the decisions.

It's still not right to insult or defame them in any way.

Rabcor, on 15 October 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

As for the players raging here being on the Star Citizen forums, dude... every community has rotten apples, every last community has them, yet not all of these communities fail. The reason things went sour here is not because some people raged, it's because tons upon tons of people raged. And sure Star Citizen will at some point do something that the community wont like, but they DO listen to the community unlike PGI. They listen very well and carefully, they fix the bugs pointed out, they allow the community to help them make some choices through polls, the moment a player rages, usually tons of people who disagree will quiet him down and sing him a lullaby or whatever, but the reason things went sour here is because the amount of people raging outnumbered the people who didn't.

The SC forums are very very well moderated (in my opinion) and most of its members seem to be pretty fine to me so far, most topics i've read have been pretty mature there, sure that may change a bit by the time the game will release, but i highly doubt that they'll remove the freedom of speech, that wont happen because the SC developers rather than playing a "victim" or asking its playerbase for pity... actually listen, and reply to the community and usually do so in a comprehensive and even constructive way. They so far nothing indicates that those developers would ever say what PGI did.

(Roughly) this that is:

"We're sorry that we lied to y'all and that you hate the game now for it, but we're just gonna do nothing about it"

But as someone else said, theres no game yet so i can't really be certain yet, but i am pretty convinced, i mean... There was a lot of rage in the League of Legends community, but did it fall apart because of it? no.

I'm using the "rotten apple" term here, because you provided it. In no way is it intended to be insulting. I just want to stay in the picture you provided.

You are not long enough here to know it, but the MWO forums had the same kind of atmosphere. The community and the developers were on the same level of friendly exchange SC currently has. It still turned sour, because said "rotten apples" are very vocal in their displeasure and they will poisen the SC forums just like they did here, as soon as something starts to not be as they imagined it to be.

With rising hostility on the forums the communication with the developers toned down by a lot. Understandably so, because no one wants to visit a forum only to be insulted, every time they do it. It's not the developers fault, this happened.

You already fell for the poison the rotten apples brought to the forums. PGI never lied. They made some statements that had to be adjusted, because they run a business and things don't always work out like they imagined it in the first place. They apologized for it. But instead of accepting the apology for what it was, the "rotten apples" took it and turned it into insults against the company, the one who wrote it and even his family. They even hand picked a few lines to pull them out of perspective to make it look like the devs insulted us, the gamers.

The game didn't develop in the speed or direction those users imagined. They wanted something different under the same brand name. When they realized that what they wanted and what the developers are delivering are two different pair of shoes, they resorted to attacking everyone and everything not in concordence with their vision.

The same will happen in SC. Maybe not by the same users who did it here, in fact I believe it will be a totally different group, but it will happen. It is only a matter of time and scale.

I do visit the SC forums regularly, as I'm an original backer of the game (I've been the very first to post about Chris' new project on the MWO forums), but I do not participate there. We already see daily threads of someone defending his rights to grief other players, for no other reason then his own amusement, as soon as the game is out on the market. We already see complaints about design decisions that will most likely not be changed. Those are just the first steps. It will get worse.

Edited by Egomane, 16 October 2013 - 01:01 AM.

[Rabcor]

Only blaming the president and his advisor for the actions of thousands of american soldiers is just as stupid as blaming the entire nation for it. The soldiers who participated, high ranking ones in particular are just as much to blame for following the idiotic orders as the government for issuing them.

and yes like you said politics don't belong. I see what you're getting at but i slightly disagree with it, matter of opinion. I think hiding behind the law is cowardice. I think not being able to take and/or stand up to insults is weak. This community however went one step too far when they made threats, that's an indirect assault in every literal meaning of the words and cause severe mental problems and insecurity for some people. That's taking things way too far.

The reason these people didn't change their behavior, at least from 3pv(sincei joined shortly before that) is that nothing was done to soothe them... an apology isn't going to cut it, apologizing verbally, and only verbally is not enough for everyone, and i agree with them that that apology wasn't good enough to convince me either (i don't care about 3pv to begin with).

Saying the same will happen on SC forums as happened here inevitably is pessimism, sure, in time people will rage, but i doubt the scale will be anywhere near as big as it was on here, one of the reasons being that SC is an original work (theres no history behind the game yet so there are less expectations and dedicated fans of the "series" theres no series to begin with) PGI can blame themselves for what happened here because "THEY" weren't careful enough, no denying or apologizing can change that.

[Egomane]

You disagree and do so without throwing insults, that's why I'm even arguing with you. If all the others would have done the same, this whole matter wouldn't have gone downhill like it did.

I agree on the soldiers only following orders making it to easy on themself, but you can not go against it from down to top if you are in the military. Even so it is told to them to think for themself and to no follow illegal or stupid orders, if they actually do that, they will face trials for it. If the order comes from the chief of state (however that is defined, is up the the various countries), disobeying could be seen a traitorous act even. You can leave (maybe) or you can obey, but anything else will get you in trouble.

I will stop here, as I'm now busy with upgrading my PC. I'll adress the rest of your points later.

[Rascula]

For the love of <insert deity here> just kill this thread.. It serves no use and has got really distasteful.

[dal10]

and that my good sir is what k-town is for.

[Heffay]

Rabcor, on 16 October 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Saying the same will happen on SC forums as happened here inevitably is pessimism, sure, in time people will rage, but i doubt the scale will be anywhere near as big as it was on here, one of the reasons being that SC is an original work (theres no history behind the game yet so there are less expectations and dedicated fans of the "series" theres no series to begin with) PGI can blame themselves for what happened here because "THEY" weren't careful enough, no denying or apologizing can change that.

I don't think you understand. When someone dumps $700 into a dream and then the developer does something that upsets that, there will be white hot rage that will make the MWO forums look like Hello Kitty Island Adventure. "You aren't rolling out planetary combat until after release?? THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON I GOT THE IDRIS! RAAAAAGE!!!"

The expectations for SC are worlds beyond what MWO has had to deal with. We've only been waiting for a decade for this. Chris Roberts fans have been waiting over 15 years.

I've dumped even more money into SC than I have MWO, and have lots of hope for it. But to think that there won't be backlash there beyond what we have seen here (which was a tiny island of vocal discontents, to be perfectly honest) is naive to the extreme.

Edited by Heffay, 16 October 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[Rabcor]

I blame the {Godwin's Law}(WWII, Germany)) for what the {Godwin's Law} did, i don't blame modern Germans for it, but many do which i would agree with you is very poor judgement. However, at the time when ->insert leader name here<- ruled {Godwin's Law} Germany, i would've hated on Germany's Government and (without discrimination) all its military and law enforcement, i would however not have hated citizens for what their country is doing as citizens don't generally participate. But like i said, without discrimination, all military personnel, but lets take war again as an example, how do you attack the German government without attacking German citizens? you can't, at least not if the primary tool at your disposal is an army. That's essentially why US get blamed for what their government does, it may not be their choice but its much simpler to paint a target on all of the US than just the select parts of it that really are to blame, but if you think deeper, the US citizens really are to blame, after all, isn't it themselves who voted for the people in control? They should learn to take some responsibility.

Chris Roberts fans are Chris Roberts fans, not Star Citizen fans. If Chris Roberts says "this" they will say "ok", if they're the chris roberts fans anyways, it's the other parts of the community i'm more worried about. But what people need to learn is not to expect so big things from something they haven't tried yet, something that doesn't exist yet, expectations will do nothing but let you down. These are my only expectations for Star Citizen: I can have my own space ship and travel around in it as well as engage in combat and missions, i will be able to go to a bar and walk around on some places like space stations, i will not lag (from the server, if theres lag it has to be my own connection), that's it. All of this is confirmed in the game, i'm just exicted to see what else will be in there too and how well the things that are already confirmed will be done. I look forward to alpha testing the dogfighting module but i have no special expectations for it, and i doubt i'll play it much, but it'll be more fun than the hangar.

And the rage which i've seen here on the MWO forums is beyond anything i've seen in any other community, except Sanctum 2 where i was for once participating in the rage, i had low expectations for that too. "Be a tower defense game comparably good to the predecessor", tgats how it was advertised too, what did we get? an FPS game with tower defense elements. That's the only moment (recently) where i've been mad at devs, that i regretted wasting my money on that piece of sh** game that didn't deliver what it had originally promised, however even if a bit late, Coffee Stain Studios did address many of the issues the ragers were raging about, i haven't witnessed PGI doing this once since i joined this community, i have not once seen them respond to any negative player feedback.

And to be so certain that what happened here will repeat itself over there is equally childish as to think that it wont, you're trying to predict a future, a future no evidence so far points towards even, you think it will happen, i think it wont happen, at least not with as massive percentage of the playerbase as in here, and if it will happen i'm quite convinced that CIG will act fast to calm the people down and say that they'll fix it judging by their current attitude towards the community, if not they say why they wont fix it, reasons players can accept. For example on the 20 mil stretch goal where we got planetside first person combat which many people complained about and said "do not want" (like with our 3pv):

sauce

Quote

The first are goals that involve features we already have planned or have implemented, but we couldn’t create content because of budgetary constraints. The first person combat on select planets is a great example of this type of goal. We already have FPS combat as part of the game in ship boarding, and we already have most of this already functional thanks to CryEngine, as we essentially have Crysis3 functionality out of the box. But creating all the environments and assets to fill them is a huge task, so we were planning on not doing any planetside combat initially, simply because of its cost, with the idea that we would slowly roll it out once the game is live. But with the additional funds we can now afford to create some of this content earlier rather than later.

Haven't seen a post about it since, whereas PGI's apology post just added fuel to the flames.

You shouldn't throw 700$ at an unfinished game unless you're ready for the worst.

Edit: About discussing WW II and the Germans participation in it... Why is discussing history not allowed i wonder? Some rules are silly, the people who actually experienced that are (mostly) no longer among us, and if they are they're not on the internet, it should be free to discuss, they teach it at schools and stuff... Godwin's Law is fairly outdated, {Godwin's Law} are used as an example so commonly because they are a part of recent history and really good for making examples.

Edited by Rabcor, 16 October 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Rabcor, on 16 October 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Edit: About discussing WW II and the Germans participation in it... Why is discussing history not allowed i wonder? Some rules are silly, the people who actually experienced that are (mostly) no longer among us, and if they are they're not on the internet, it should be free to discuss, they teach it at schools and stuff... Godwin's Law is fairly outdated, {Godwin's Law} are used as an example so commonly because they are a part of recent history and really good for making examples.

Your perceptions of Post Weimar Republic Germany, and the expanding public ignorance towards totalitarian socialism/fascism that pervades since the end of the Cold War, speaks volumes of the educational quality that is provided by the Public School system in regards to history.

Having known numerous people in my life who, either lived through Post Weimar Republic German, or escaped from Eastern Bloc countries, they would be sickened by any analogy presented that would compare a video games forum moderation policy to those regimes. To do so screams of absolute ignorance regarding those regimes and an over-inflated penchant for hyperbole.

Also, as an onsite computer technician, I could conservatively say that over 60% of my clients come from the "Greatest Generation" and believe me, they are much more savvy towards technology then you give them credit for. Oh, and those who you believe aren't on the internet, actually are, and are much more wary about the end result of the infringements of privacy, having lived through REAL horrors, than the mouthbreathers with their 1st World Problems that the MWO topic on the SC forum nerdrage about.

Y'all suffer from an EXTREME lack of perspective.

[Rabcor]

If they're so sensitive about it they need to get over it... Don't think we haven't had problems of our own, there are other hurtful things than war out there and you should know, don't make me count examples cus it'd only be depressing.

Would i care if the hurtful things that have been done to me would be used as an example? nope... i wouldn't because i'm over it all, and i'm not over it because these things were so insignificant, oh no, but because only the weak cling to their past. In fact i sometimes use my own bad experiences as examples, and if some similar crimes as have been commited to me are being discussed i tend to join in rather than be offended...

No one is comparing anything, we're using history as an example, isn't that what history is for? What good would history serve if we don't use it to learn from it? what good does a past serve if you don't make use of the experiences you've lived through? Also, you said your clients at work are from those times, glorify them all you want, they're humans like everyone else but don't go speaking out for them that they would be sickened by something like this. Did they say that to you?

Why are discussions of nuclear weapons allowed? there are survivors from Hiroshima and other places too, something the americans did that's just as cruel, evil and terrible as everything the {Godwin's Law} did, yet no censorship towards nukes, nop.

Also while these people may be on the internet, i doubt they'd be in a game forum... They're mostly, let me guess: Facebook, E-mail, News Sites.

But you're right about one thing, the educational quality sucks at least up to high school. Globally. History and Geography in particular, but also foreign language lessons are known to be pretty damn bad. In fact, the entire educational system is rotten and outdated, it's effectiveness has been heavily reduced thanks to modern media (such as games, cartoons and movies) and the more accessible they become, the less interested kids are in education. Education needs to be fun or it has already failed.

Edited by Rabcor, 16 October 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Heffay]

Rabcor, on 16 October 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

And the rage which i've seen here on the MWO forums is beyond anything i've seen in any other community, except Sanctum 2 where i was for once participating in the rage, i had low expectations for that too.

Were you around when WoW decided to let Horde have Paladins and the Alliance got Shamans? After they said they many times they wouldn't do that? How about when Diablo 3 decided to release the real money auction house?

This is a tempest in a teacup. And one day, this storm will blow over Star Citizen. I guarantee it.

[Heffay]

Rabcor, on 16 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

If they're so sensitive about it they need to get over it...
...
Would i care if the hurtful things that have been done to me would be used as an example? nope...

Your lack of empathy will relegate your ability to provide compelling narrative and successfully argue your point of view to the dustbin. Which is fine.

Get over it.

[Roadbeer]

Rabcor, on 16 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

If they're so sensitive about it they need to get over it... Don't think we haven't had problems of our own, there are other hurtful things than war out there and you should know, don't make me count examples cus it'd only be depressing.

Would i care if the hurtful things that have been done to me would be used as an example? nope... i wouldn't because i'm over it all, and i'm not over it because these things were so insignificant, oh no, but because only the weak cling to their past. In fact i sometimes use my own bad experiences as examples, and if some similar crimes as have been commited to me are being discussed i tend to join in rather than be offended...

The offence comes from the completely idiotic analog of Post Weimar Republic Germany with that of forum moderation. It's not even apples and oranges, it's apples and truck tires. Hyperbole is the lazy tool of those who lack adequate descriptive skills, and unless you're discussing a game where there is historical relevance to that period in history, it has no place.
As to why it's edited on the forum, is because those who are complete morons seem to feel they have some freedom of speech on a privately owned forum and invoke totalitarian censorship when their vitriol exceeds constructive criticism and just becomes being a whiny *****.

Rabcor, on 16 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Why are discussions of nuclear weapons allowed? there are survivors from Hiroshima and other places too, something the americans did that's just as cruel, evil and terrible as everything the {Godwin's Law} did, yet no censorship towards nukes, nop.

You're completely wrong, the use of atomic weapons to bring about the end of the war is regarded on as the most humane solution as it saved more Japanese lives than it took. While it was an EXTREME measure, the alternative would have been FAR worse. Furthermore, to equate dropping 2 bombs to force a surrender that saved millions of lives, with genocidal extermination of millions of lives in both Germany and Russia, shows how your education has failed you.

Rabcor, on 16 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Also while these people may be on the internet, i doubt they'd be in a game forum... They're mostly, let me guess: Facebook, E-mail, News Sites.

So you're devaluing human interaction and education? I learn more about you with each sentence.

Rabcor, on 16 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

But you're right about one thing, the educational quality sucks at least up to high school. Globally. History and Geography in particular, but also foreign language lessons are known to be pretty damn bad. In fact, the entire educational system is rotten and outdated, it's effectiveness has been heavily reduced thanks to modern media (such as games, cartoons and movies) and the more accessible they become, the less interested kids are in education. Education needs to be fun or it has already failed.

Actually, High School is even worse, as is modern academia. It can be argued, with some success, that anyone born after 1990 is probably in the worst equipped generations for survival in both the real world or the work force, and if born in anything less than a 1st world country, they would have starved to death LONG ago.

Edited by Roadbeer, 16 October 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[dal10]

Roadbeer, on 16 October 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Actually, High School is even worse, as is modern academia. It can be argued, with some success, that anyone born after 1990 is probably in the worst equipped generations for survival in both the real world or the work force, and if born in anything less than a 1st world country, they would have starved to death LONG ago.

2 things, one. you need better insults.

2 high school, which i am only 2 years out of, is designed for the slowest person in the room. it meant that if you couldn't coast on intelligence alone, like i did, or were highly motivated, which i was not, you failed. I went to a high school that prided itself on academic achievement. 109 out of 412 people graduated with a C or better. It prepared you to fail. not to succeed, but to fail. I can't even tell you how many times i went to detention for pointing out just how ******** the lessons were. I almost got expelled because i stopped going to them. All because i couldn't stand the thought of the teachers basically teaching students to be as ******** as physically possible.

my senior year of high school we had a required class called law 101 online, which was about the law (obviously). first day the teacher told everyone they would have to study hard to pass. I just asked for the final exam. I aced it. What did i get? a semester of detention for making the teacher look bad.

You are better off being homeschooled honestly.

[Roadbeer]

dal10, on 16 October 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

2 things, one. you need better insults.

2 high school, which i am only 2 years out of, is designed for the slowest person in the room. it meant that if you couldn't coast on intelligence alone, like i did, or were highly motivated, which i was not, you failed. I went to a high school that prided itself on academic achievement. 109 out of 412 people graduated with a C or better. It prepared you to fail. not to succeed, but to fail. I can't even tell you how many times i went to detention for pointing out just how ******** the lessons were. I almost got expelled because i stopped going to them. All because i couldn't stand the thought of the teachers basically teaching students to be as ******** as physically possible.

my senior year of high school we had a required class called law 101 online, which was about the law (obviously). first day the teacher told everyone they would have to study hard to pass. I just asked for the final exam. I aced it. What did i get? a semester of detention for making the teacher look bad.

You are better off being homeschooled honestly.

Oh, if I was trying to be insulting, there would be no doubt about the quality.

That's the difference between having a discussion (while admittedly being condescending) and acting like monkeys in the zoo

Everything you said about Public High School is correct though. Anyone coming out of one now, and thinking that they're better for it, is going to have a hard life.

[Chavette]

Egomane, on 15 October 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

To be quite honest... I don't see a huge discussion. Just the same users who complained and insulted here, doing it now over there. I'm surprised, that the moderators over there allow the type of hate speach, displayed in many of theses posts, even so it is clearly against their code of conduct.

How get a title like that one?

Heffay, on 16 October 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Your lack of empathy will relegate your ability to provide compelling narrative and successfully argue your point of view to the dustbin. Which is fine.

Get over it.

And yours too! How do I get it?