31 replies to this topic

[Muffinator]

I feel that LRMs are a bit disappointing in their current form. To be really effective you have to bring a ton of them whereas it would be nice for all those light/mediums with a few missile hardpoints to be able to put in an LRM5 or 10 as a viable option.

In my opinion, the problems are that lurms are too easy to dodge compared to direct fire at range and AMS is too effective against smaller salvos.

I'd be interested to see if a remedy would be to make LRMs move much faster - at least double their current travel speed - but to very significantly increase the cooldown. This would make timing a shot important as they'd be harder to spam but when you did get that shot right it would be more likely to do something.

I also think LRMs should have a much reduced arc and grouping when fired with LOS. Remember in MW2 how they pretty much flew out straight ahead of you? This would bring them closer to the other weapon types in effect - see something, shoot it, hit it.

[Vodrin Thales]

Muffinator, on 10 October 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I feel that LRMs are a bit disappointing in their current form. To be really effective you have to bring a ton of them whereas it would be nice for all those light/mediums with a few missile hardpoints to be able to put in an LRM5 or 10 as a viable option.

In my opinion, the problems are that lurms are too easy to dodge compared to direct fire at range and AMS is too effective against smaller salvos.

I'd be interested to see if a remedy would be to make LRMs move much faster - at least double their current travel speed - but to very significantly increase the cooldown. This would make timing a shot important as they'd be harder to spam but when you did get that shot right it would be more likely to do something.

I also think LRMs should have a much reduced arc and grouping when fired with LOS. Remember in MW2 how they pretty much flew out straight ahead of you? This would bring them closer to the other weapon types in effect - see something, shoot it, hit it.

They just need much lower travel times to target. Currently they are so slow that you can usually dodge them if the attacker is outside of about 500m.

[RandomLurker]

1. Increase travel speed.

2. Balance ECM.

3. Profit.

[Wolfways]

http://mwomercs.com/...lrms-revisited/

[Johnny Reb]

I currently feel lrms are pretty good. If anything a bit more speed would be welcome.

edit: I run alot of lrm platforms so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 10 October 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[Nryrony]

RandomLurker, on 10 October 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

1. Increase travel speed.

2. Balance ECM.

3. Profit.

Funny thing is, that at the same time they seem so weak, if you boat them and have some one giving you a solid target they are extremely mean.

Ghost-heat is no solution for LRMs, they need a different kind of mechanic.

And they need to be stronger for solo players, just mounting 5-15 LRMs as an additional weapon.

[Johnny Reb]

Nryrony, on 10 October 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Funny thing is, that at the same time they seem so weak, if you boat them and have some one giving you a solid target they are extremely mean.

Ghost-heat is no solution for LRMs, they need a different kind of mechanic.

And they need to be stronger for solo players, just mounting 5-15 LRMs as an additional weapon.

I agree, ghost heat on lrms is just bad! As to solo players, its the nature of the weapon, need a team to make the lrm shine. A herd of cats running everywhere is bad news for a lrm boat!

edit: in fact, I run lrms alot and unless im in a medium lrm boat, I wont run them in solo pugs, need a 4 man to bring them out.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 10 October 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Nryrony]

Johnny Reb, on 10 October 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

edit: in fact, I run lrms alot and unless im in a medium lrm boat, I wont run them in solo pugs, need a 4 man to bring them out.

And this is why they are bad, they need to change this, otherwise why should anyone equip a single lrm 5 or 10.

This is one reason why the game play is dominated so strongly by ballistics.

[Mr 144]

I'm quite happy with LRMs being the toughest 'scaling skill' weapon in the game right now. What I mean is...

* it's an easy entry level weapon that can do mediocre damage.
*The more systems you use, the better it gets (TAG, Artemis, Teamwork, BAP, Modules, etc.) For me this is a cool unique aspect.
*It's extremely difficult to use in high levels of play (this is both good and bad)...this IS skill...a different kind perhaps, but skill nonetheless.

Ghost Heat, while I abhor the mechanism in general, serves LRMs nicely I think. LRMs have always been extremely difficult to balance due to so many variables. Eliminating (or at least reducing the likelyhood of) extreme boating scenarios Makes them far easier to balance for the one or two launcher builds.

My personal opinion...Balance around 2xALRM15 (without TAG).
*Bump damage slightly....maybe 1.2 - 1.4
*slight increase to flight speed...maybe 150 - 200

*so Ideally, 1.3/missile with 175m/s flight speed

It's very difficult under all the heat penalties to abuse LRMs unlike ML and Ballistic Boats...and it's time it's damage reflects that.

Edited by Mr 144, 10 October 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Well when I talk lrm I am talking about boats! I have balance builds but not here about lrms. The devs walk a fine line with lrms! We have had 3 times where lrms owned everything and breaks the game. So even if you think lrms are weak, which they are not! One minor tweek and they become OP!

Mr 144, on 10 October 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

I'm quite happy with LRMs being the toughest 'scaling skill' weapon in the game right now. What I mean is...

* it's an easy entry level weapon that can do mediocre damage.
*The more systems you use, the better it gets (TAG, Artemis, Teamwork, BAP, Modules, etc.) For me this is a cool unique aspect.
*It's extremely difficult to use in high levels of play (this is both good and bad)...this IS skill...a different kind perhaps, but skill nonetheless.

Ghost Heat, while I abhor the mechanism in general, serves LRMs nicely I think. LRMs have always been extremely difficult to balance due to so many variables. Eliminating (or at least reducing the likelyhood of) extreme boating scenarios Makes them far easier to balance for the one or two launcher builds.

My personal opinion...Balance around 2xALRM15 (without TAG).
*Bump damage slightly....maybe 1.2 - 1.4
*slight increase to flight speed...maybe 150 - 175

It's very difficult under all the heat penalties to abuse LRMs unlike ML and Ballistic Boats...and it's time it's damage reflects that.

In high level play its not only good position but your team being able to get you targets. Both, hard to do and easily countered.

edit: I am fine being called a skill less lrm boat. I know to shine it takes tactical skill, modules and teammates (lacking in pugs). I run other things also, just find the challenge of getting lrms on target, especially in bad lrm maps, satisfying.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 10 October 2013 - 09:56 PM.

[Mr 144]

Johnny Reb, on 10 October 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

In high level play its not only good position but your team being able to get you targets. Both, hard to do and easily countered.

Uh-Duh

I'm relatively happy with that honestly. Back in the day (CB) LRMs were still crud for comp play, but we could pull it off as a team and a holistic system. It required a 'skilled' LRM player....not just anyone could do it despite claims to the contrary (and NOT me btw). I like that aspect, but now, unless a full 3rd of your team is boating them...no chance. The main problem when counting on teamwork, is as soon as mechs start going down, your ability to perform can be reduced to nothing. This isn't true for any other weapon system and is why 'balancing' needs to ignore team play.

What are you more scared of?
1: A 4-man Ballistic firing line...a 4-man Brawler lance (free-roaming)...and a 4-man light/anti-light skirmishing lance
2: A 4-man LRM lance...a 4-man Brawler lance (now tethered for protection)...and a 4-man scouting and spotting lance

This is why team play needs to be ignored in balancing. If you HAVE good team play, you're certainly not going to waste that strength on LRMs.

[Johnny Reb]

Well, we were effective tonight in 12 man with a 2 lrm platform and our others, 5-1. Lrms are effective in 12 man but it really is map dependent on how effective.

[Mr 144]

Johnny Reb, on 10 October 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Well, we were effective tonight in 12 man with a 2 lrm platform and our others, 5-1. Lrms are effective in 12 man but it really is map dependent on how effective.

Would love to see it...I only LRM pug, and my builds reflect that...no one I know humors me...even if it is just for fun

[Muffinator]

Nryrony, on 10 October 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

And this is why they are bad, they need to change this, otherwise why should anyone equip a single lrm 5 or 10.

This is one reason why the game play is dominated so strongly by ballistics.

This is my problem with the lurm. A single missile hardpoint is a wasted hardpoint and there's no reason for a ranged or mixed role mech to take just one launcher. I've been running a fast treb with 1x ALRM 20 and I do my best to get in position, only fire when I can maintain a lock, etc. It still feels like I'm flinging a powder puff - I got 200 damage in a long game just now when if I'd just taken 2 LL on that same build I could get 3-400. And that 200 damage is spread evenly over each target too so it's hard to get kills or even take off components.

I'm not super-sure what the best answer is. Obviously you don't want to massively buff damage because then we'll have another lurmageddon. I still feel like a big buff to speed is the answer and I also think the idea of removing or reducing the incoming missile warning is a good one. LRMs aren't so strong any more that we are entitled to a neon sign flashing when anyone pops one off.

[Joseph Mallan]

Johnny Reb, on 10 October 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

I agree, ghost heat on lrms is just bad! As to solo players, its the nature of the weapon, need a team to make the lrm shine. A herd of cats running everywhere is bad news for a lrm boat!

edit: in fact, I run lrms alot and unless im in a medium lrm boat, I wont run them in solo pugs, need a 4 man to bring them out.

Nryrony, on 10 October 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

And this is why they are bad, they need to change this, otherwise why should anyone equip a single lrm 5 or 10.

This is one reason why the game play is dominated so strongly by ballistics.

For a long range harassment weapon? You notice Johnny says unless he is in a team. LRMs are used best when a team hits and hold the R lock for targeting. Pre mades do this with ease, PUGs... not so much. I confess as a PUG I even don't hold lock. But that mostly cause I am locking on which ever Mech is in front of me, so I don't hold my lock nearly as well as I should.

[Barantor]

I'll say it again.

Direct fire LRMs should go twice as fast and have double artemis convergence. If you are brave enough to fire them like a cannon, they should act like a cannon. If I have artemis, tag lock and direct line of sight to the target then they should be screaming along at the enemy.

Indirect fire to me is 'suppression mode' and helps your team it should be slow since there is longer latency between your mech, the friendly doing the spotting and the missiles in flight.

[Joseph Mallan]

Best way to balance LRMs. Put some on both sides of your Mech.

Sorry I had to!

[General Taskeen]

PGI messed up big time on LRMs along with ECM and indirect support tools.

Problem Exhibit A - Any of your team mates that sees a Mech that you can not, you can target it and lob missiles.

Solution A To Fix - Make it so only indirect fire equipment to allow this to happen (C3 Master Computers, NARC, and TAG - the later being useful for Scout Mechs - role warefare)

(PGI's Solution to A - Current ECM)

Problem Exhibit B - An ECM Mech is charging you and shooting LRM's at you. You are enjoying yourself in a nice Stock Mech with lasers and 2 LRM-15's. You can not fire your LRM's when the ECM Mech is in direct LOS shooting at you with LRM's.

Solution B to Fix - ECM should only prevent indirect fire from happening not direct LOS.

(PGI's Solution to B - Current ECM, cancels indirect and direct LOS)

Examples:

C3 Master - Communicates with C3 Slaves equipped on other Mechs - Sharing targeting info (only if other Mechs have C3 Slaves equipped) and allowing indirect fire (if any Mech has LRMs) if C3 Master is targeting a Mech.
Disadvantage: ECM shuts down C3 Master Computers if in range preventing Indirect Fire support and target info gathering.

TAG - Allows indirect fire support, cuts through ECM (canon) - no change needed
Disadvantage: ECM shuts off TAG if in range preventing indirect fire

NARC - Allows missiles to auto-seek the beacon; Mechs with SRMs can now get target tone and SRMs gain limited tracking ability to target; LRMs auto-seek nearest beacon if not currently targeting anything; Does not fall off from damage; Lasts 30s
Disadvantage: ECM Shuts off NARC Beacon when in Range.


Boom, everything is fixed. Role Warfare achieved, people have to choose whether they need indirect fire support tools or not, which are in turn canceled by ECM and ECM keeps its flat buff of making target info gathering slower and missile lock slower. And other Mechs on your team are constantly trying to countermode other ECM Mechs to keep indirect fire support up.

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 October 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[Shadey99]

I don't use LRMs or SRMs currently (outside an occasional group of SSRMs). I own several Catapults though, so once upon a time I did make use of LRMs. I also ran my Cicada Mini-Archer for a couple weeks to considerble effect at mid-range....

The big problem with LRMs is two-fold:

Small numbers of missiles (1 or 2 LRM5s for instance) are stupid unless boated (and even with multiple staggered launchers they are subpar). They have little to no effect though 5's and even 10s are very CT seeking and fire quicker than large launchers, which makes the 2xLRM5 locust sad. AMS is the primary reason for issues with small sizes of missiles, though the effectiveness of non-boated small sized launchers is rather low as well.

The second problem is the amount of support in a team they require mostly due to ECM (and the ECM shadow). This is also true in gear like artmeis (with larger than LRM10 launchers), BAP (more for SRMs), TAG (mostly for LRMs). TAG & BAP being the primary ways of defeating ECM. ECM is still just way to strong and that has bee stated many times. Ideally if it was rewarded lights with BAP & TAG would spot for LRM equipped mechs with solid communications. However you are not likely to ever see that in PUGs...

[Shakespeare]

multiple 5's having better damage/impact on torsos than LRM20 is pretty infuriating. What a pointless launcher! My 40 stalker is just wimpy even under ideal circumstances, compared to the direct fire mech I'm surely engaging.

And yeah, faster missiles please!