16 replies to this topic

[Túatha Dé Danann]

We have several good Clan mech chassis and several very bad ones. How do we re-balance the chassis without making the top tier mechs "OP"?

Lets have a look on the "bad" Clan chassis and make a small cause and effect analysis:

Mist Lynx:

- Can't mount a good weapon loadout if ECM-pod is selected (only two hardpoints)
- Without ECM, the weapon loadout is still very low
- Too many Jump Jets (overkill)

Suggestion:

Exchange the Clan Active probe with ECM as fixed equipment
- Make 2 JJ fixed, rest dynamic

Kit-Fox:

- Would be better, if it got a little more speed

Suggestion:
- Speed Quirk of additional 7.5%

Adder:
Might also benefit from a speed Quirk of about 7.5%

Ice-Ferret:
Pod-space lackluster. Is not that bad, but also far away from being a decent mech.
Suggestion: As the only way to make tonnage free is to armor down, it may get something like + 15 armor on the legs that people can use to strip in order to make more room free for equipment.

Nova:
- Fixed Jump Jets
- Limited Pod space
- No Endo
- No Ferro
- Easy to hit

Suggestion:
Make Endo&Ferro available and give it the ability to upgrade to an XL300. JJ should be dynamic. On that note: Engine heatsinks should be equippable.

Mad-Dog:
- Underperforms compared to its surrounding chassis (Stormcrow, Ebon Jaguar, Hellbringer)

Suggestion:
- Could use "free Artemis" spread Quirks
- Give it Endo Steel as available upgrade
- Maybe a little heat reduction Quirk (like 5% on Energy weapons)

Summoner:
- too few hardpoints
- not enough pod space
- fixed Jump Jets

Suggestion:
- Enable Endo/Ferro
- Make JJ dynamic
- May need more hardpoints

Gargoyle:
- not enough pod space

Suggestion:
- enable Endo-steel
- similar to the ice-ferret, buff the armor on the legs to make it "strippable" for more tonnage
- to free up additional tonnage, give it ammo based Quirks (x1.5) and a little energy heat reduction (-5%)

Warhawk:
- not so bad, but lacks compared to its surroundings

Suggestion:
- Replace Ferro with Endo-steel
- some armor Quirks for the CT and side-torsos

Executioner:
- lackluster Pod Space for a 95 ton mech
- 8 tons of pod space in fixed JJ
- additional 4 tons in fixed MASC (I will not talk about MASC being useful for its 4ton/4slot price - thats another topic)
- very easy to hit
- has to stand up against the Dire Wolf (51 tons of pod space vs. 25.5)
- the faster speed does not outbalance the missing pod space

Suggestion:
- enable Endo steel
- make JJ dynamic
- make MASC dynamic
- some armor buffs to the legs to enable the "strip me" effect to free up another ton or two


If we scroll over most of the suggestions, esp for the non-light mechs, we find a somewhat repeating pattern:
- Endo/Ferro
- Fixed JJ
- other fixed equipment

If we unlock all the upgrades (and make fixed equipment dynamic) the "bad mechs" would vastly benefit from it, while the "good mechs" stay mostly as they are. This helps to bring them closer together.
After that, we only need small Quirks to shapen their characters.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 20 June 2015 - 04:24 AM.

[Ryokens leap]

In regards to Exc and MASC, it has too little duration and too long a recharge to be worth the tonnage, a buff is needed IMO.

[IraqiWalker]

I'm sorry but most of these are not fixes. Might as well make all the clan mechs the same, and even then, the ones with better hitboxes will dominate.

For example:

Let's take the Summoner. Endo and FF are nice, but it's not what the mech needs, and hell throw those on it, and you might as well be playing a lame Timberwolf.

What the Summoner needs, is better Jumpjets. Better torso, and armor twist, and move ranges, and rates. Maybe even more accel, and decel buffs, or turning buffs.

That's how you make the Summoner, better, while keeping the flavor of the mech.

In fact, most of the times when you use "enable Endo Steel", remove that, and try using quirks that fit the mech. You'll usually end up with something much better than what Endo would give you, in terms of keeping the mech true to it's source material, while still not sucking compared to it's counterparts.

The Nova might be the only one out of the entire bunch that I would recommend a drastic fix for (bring the arms closer to the main body)

If JJs would be improved, then they wouldn't feel like wasted tonnage on the mechs that come hardlocked with them.

The Adder didn't need the flamer removed, we needed the flamer improved/redesigned (as was promised around the same time the Firestarter chassis was added).

EDIT: Before someone starts throwing the "You're IS you don't care about clans" accusations around. I've been with the clans since day 1, preordered wave 1, and haven't regretted a single cent I spent on the clans. My 2xUAC2 Kitfox is one of my most beloved builds, and I play clan mechs regularly in solo queue (don't expect that to happen often during this event, as I will be running my Ember, and protector.)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 20 June 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm sorry but most of these are not fixes. Might as well make all the clan mechs the same, and even then, the ones with better hitboxes will dominate.

Imagine back the times, when mech had no Quirks and you only had IS mech. The performance-margine between all mechs was rather small compared to the situation we have right now. Bringing all mechs together again will help to imporove the balancing - or even enable a sane balancing approach.

The mechs back there all had Endo enabled - with very few exceptions and you still had a good variety and roles.

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For example:


Let's take the Summoner. Endo and FF are nice, but it's not what the mech needs, and hell throw those on it, and you might as well be playing a lame Timberwolf.

As "lame" as it may sound to you, it brings the Summoner back to the battlefield, as right now nobody would take it, if a Timberwolf stands right next to it. After that, you can bring in the flavor with stuff like JJ boost.

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What the Summoner needs, is better Jumpjets. Better torso, and armor twist, and move ranges, and rates. Maybe even more accel, and decel buffs, or turning buffs.

And 97% of all people would still take the Timberwolf.

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In fact, most of the times when you use "enable Endo Steel", remove that, and try using quirks that fit the mech. You'll usually end up with something much better than what Endo would give you, in terms of keeping the mech true to it's source material, while still not sucking compared to it's counterparts.

"Source material"? You want to argue with the stock loadout here? Please, take the stock Direwolf-B into the match and tell me again how "awesome" it is to play with "lore" setups.

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The Nova might be the only one out of the entire bunch that I would recommend a drastic fix for (bring the arms closer to the main body)

Which will not happen - they did not "fix" the Awesome either but gave it Quirks.

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If JJs would be improved, then they wouldn't feel like wasted tonnage on the mechs that come hardlocked with them.

And would bring Jumpsniping back again if they fail to make it "good".

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The Adder didn't need the flamer removed, we needed the flamer improved/redesigned (as was promised around the same time the Firestarter chassis was added).

But the Flamer still sucks and will suck for at least another year. Stop gap solution: Remove it.

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EDIT: Before someone starts throwing the "You're IS you don't care about clans" accusations around. I've been with the clans since day 1, preordered wave 1, and haven't regretted a single cent I spent on the clans. My 2xUAC2 Kitfox is one of my most beloved builds, and I play clan mechs regularly in solo queue (don't expect that to happen often during this event, as I will be running my Ember, and protector.)

I play 90% Clan mechs in public and have to play IS mechs in CW. I don't care about Clan or IS, I want a good game, which involves balance. Right now, we have a couple of useless Clan mechs nobody dares to use as they are so far behind the performance of their sister-chassis, that they are practically obsolete.

Obsolete mechs hurt the game.

[IraqiWalker]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 20 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Imagine back the times, when mech had no Quirks and you only had IS mech. The performance-margine between all mechs was rather small compared to the situation we have right now. Bringing all mechs together again will help to imporove the balancing - or even enable a sane balancing approach.

The mechs back there all had Endo enabled - with very few exceptions and you still had a good variety and roles.

What are you even talking about? Did you play the game back then? Because I remember CLEARLY that there were three mechs at the top, and everything else was crap.

The performance margin was massive between IS mechs back then. Anything that wasn't the top most weight in it's weight class was crap, except for ONE Cataphract variant, and ONE Stalker variant.

The meta teams ran: Firestarter +Dragon Slayer. If we wanna go back before that, they ran Highlander, and Raven 3L, or Spider 5D. If we wanna go back before that, they ran Cataphract + Raven 3L or Spider 5D, with maybe a Jenner F.

For Mediums, it was Shadowhawk or go home. SOMETIMES, we'd see an Atlas DDC in the mix.


No my friend, the performance margin has been the closest it's ever been now, than before.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 20 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

As "lame" as it may sound to you, it brings the Summoner back to the battlefield, as right now nobody would take it, if a Timberwolf stands right next to it. After that, you can bring in the flavor with stuff like JJ boost.

No, it really won't The summoner still brings less tonnage, to the field, fewer weapons, and worse hitboxes. Unless you can recognize that fact, you really need to re-think your approach.

In terms of firepower and durability, the Summoner has lost, that's not gonna change with Ferro, and Endo unlocked. So you need to focus on what makes the Summoner so different from the TBR, and what makes it work so well that it would be considered a viable option:

Mobility (this is where accel, decel, and turn radius quirks come in), and a few really big guns. The Summoner is a flanker, through and through. It shows in it's speed, it shows in it's hardpoints, and it shows in it's JJs. This mech is designed to bring a few really big guns, quickly to where they are most needed. So enhance that, make the JJs useful so it's not 5 wasted tons we're not getting back, and make it twist, move, and aim faster (that's where the torso movement, and arm movement quirks come in handy)

On the weapon quirks end, it's good, could use some minor buffs here and there, but nothing big.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 20 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

And 97% of all people would still take the Timberwolf.

Following your suggestions, yes. Absolutely, 100%, the TBR has better hitboxes, more firepower, better range of movement, and more hardpoints. Your suggestions just give the summoner a few more tons to use, not enough tons to begin with, without addressing why we have the summoner, and how we can make it a viable option.

You're literally saying: "let's make it a lesser timberwolf" This guarantees that no one will use it over the TBR. So instead, approach the problem from a different angle: Role, and application.
The TBR will always bring more guns to the fight, and will tank better, on average. It moves at the exact same speed (before the SMN speed quirk is factored in), it twists better, with better ranges, and tanks infinitely better, not just because it has 5 tons on the Summoner, but because it's rear hitboxes are so good, you can get away with putting only 2 points in the rear, and front load everything.

The Summoner will always be better at traversing terrain courtesy of the JJs (mostly because it has so many, not because the JJs are good right now), The summoner will always have big guns, but it'll only bring 1 or 2 of those. If tries to bring loads of smaller guns, it loses. So make it work with those better. It's a heavy weapons platform, make it excel there.

The TBR is a striker, but the SMN can be a much better mobile artillery mech.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 20 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

"Source material"? You want to argue with the stock loadout here? Please, take the stock Direwolf-B into the match and tell me again how "awesome" it is to play with "lore" setups.

Uhhhh.... Who said anything about stock loadouts? I can understand your confusion, and I should have phrased it better, considering we have many people who want the game to run stock only, or things like that. By "source material", I meant descriptions of the Summoner in fluff, and how the mech is set apart from others. Also, how omnis worked there, and here.

I will never argue with Stock Loadouts due to a simple reason:

I almost NEVER ran stock loadouts in my TT games. I had Targeting computers wherever I could strap them, especially to Gauss Rifles, and I always tried to upgrade my mechs.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 20 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Which will not happen - they did not "fix" the Awesome either but gave it Quirks.

Yeah, ok. Did I say they should just give the Nova quirks? I said that I would recommend bringing the arms closer. Quirks will definitely help the Nova, but the wide arms can be a problem sometimes.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 20 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

And would bring Jumpsniping back again if they fail to make it "good".

Yes, and a meteor could hit me on my out of the house. Should I stay inside and never leave?

With the cockpit shake extended to the entire duration of the jump, I don't see any problems with upping JJs back. Also, one of the biggest reasons Jump Sniping was working, is because you had to invest in only one or two jumpjets to get all the lift you need. With the way JJs have been restructured now, it won't work the same. Increasing impulse on the JJs, proportional to how many are mounted would really help the Summoner.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 20 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

But the Flamer still sucks and will suck for at least another year. Stop gap solution: Remove it.

A stop gap solution for what? It's not like the Adder suddenly became competitive because we freed an extra slot, and 0.5 tons. The Kitfox is 5 tons lighter, and still better. Some might argue that even the Mist Lynx is infinitely better. The MLX is definitely better than the ADR in CW, hands down. Even if it brings less firepower.

Literally the only build that truly benefited from removing the flamer is the LRM set up, because now you can put a TAG above the cockpit. That's all it did for the Adder. Fixing the flamer would have been the better choice, since it bring an entire weapon system back from the scrap yard, and makes that flamer on the adder valuable.

Also, removing the Flamer establishes a precedence for breaking construction rules. What's next? 400 engine cap on all mechs?

Túatha Dé Danann, on 20 June 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

I play 90% Clan mechs in public and have to play IS mechs in CW. I don't care about Clan or IS, I want a good game, which involves balance. Right now, we have a couple of useless Clan mechs nobody dares to use as they are so far behind the performance of their sister-chassis, that they are practically obsolete.

Obsolete mechs hurt the game.

Agreed, I disagree with the methods you're proposing because they don't address the problems with the chassis in question. They'll make them less underperforming, but underperforming nonetheless.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 20 June 2015 - 04:56 PM.

[Russhuster]

@ IraqiWalker
the sad fact is, you cant even buid the stock lore loadout wit ammo in the curent summoner
Most unused Mechs suffer from this desease
unlockuing fix JJ endo and FFB for Clan mechs wont do evil

BECAUSE
Most of the so-called Top Mechs already have FFB and ENDO steel Structure like TBR and SCR for example
whilst improving Mechs like the Summoner the nova etc the good mechs wont get better ! an ideal way of closing the gap
Yes, the clan lights will definitely need and additional Speed buff 12.5 - 20% 20% to MistLynx 12.5 for Uller/KitFox and Adder
That wont make these as fast as the 150kmh+ IS Mechs but at least no pure Victims anymore
Gargoyle needs a boost in Armor as well and the Executioner.. well with not hardcoded structure and JJ ihe Player can chose what Mech it shall be,.. at least it is a wider spectre the Player is offered.

Imho unlocking Structure (Endo) Armor (FFB) and hardcoded Jumpjets for Clan wont be a possible Danger but a posssible Opportunity

So I support Thúatha dèDanann´s Sight and Suggestions in this matter

[IraqiWalker]

Russhuster, on 21 June 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

@ IraqiWalker
the sad fact is, you cant even buid the stock lore loadout wit ammo in the curent summoner

What are you talking about? You can build the stock loadout, and STILL have 2 tons free from the A-Pods. Have you looked at the Summoner data sheets?

Russhuster, on 21 June 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

Most unused Mechs suffer from this desease
unlockuing fix JJ endo and FFB for Clan mechs wont do evil

No, it just won't fix the problem.

Russhuster, on 21 June 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

BECAUSE
Most of the so-called Top Mechs already have FFB and ENDO steel Structure like TBR and SCR for example
whilst improving Mechs like the Summoner the nova etc the good mechs wont get better ! an ideal way of closing the gap
Yes, the clan lights will definitely need and additional Speed buff 12.5 - 20% 20% to MistLynx 12.5 for Uller/KitFox and Adder
That wont make these as fast as the 150kmh+ IS Mechs but at least no pure Victims anymore
Gargoyle needs a boost in Armor as well and the Executioner.. well with not hardcoded structure and JJ ihe Player can chose what Mech it shall be,.. at least it is a wider spectre the Player is offered.

Imho unlocking Structure (Endo) Armor (FFB) and hardcoded Jumpjets for Clan wont be a possible Danger but a posssible Opportunity

So I support Thúatha dèDanann´s Sight and Suggestions in this matter

I just see it as wrong, and won't solve the problem at all. Making them suck less is not the same as making them good.

[Russhuster]

yah 2 tons with lowered AR and for both AK and LRM Ammo you do see the discrepance?


Maybe it wont Fix the Problematic completely but it will ease alot the upset Clan Players,.. quite a few feel treated unfair with quirk lists in shiny red
but iam keen on reading your Suggestions to fix that Problem in Case you see a Problem there at all ?
You may have noticed additional supporting quirks mentioned like the Speed boost for Clan lights
or those for the Gargoyle were applied

Making them suck less wont be the quitessence of all Wisdom, I agree; But making them suck less may be a start no?
Clan Players are imho competition likers otherwise they wont play clan anymore so maybe this little start will give the unused Chassis a second thaught and a chance to show up in game a little more

Edited by Russhuster, 21 June 2015 - 04:25 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

What are you even talking about? Did you play the game back then? Because I remember CLEARLY that there were three mechs at the top, and everything else was crap.

The performance margin was massive between IS mechs back then. Anything that wasn't the top most weight in it's weight class was crap, except for ONE Cataphract variant, and ONE Stalker variant.

Then we have a different perception about the difference back then. I was able to wield anything from Shadowhawk, over Stalker with 4 LPL, to the Muromets and even the Thunderbolts and Orions with success. The variety of build you were able to use was large and the performance difference was rather small compared to the builds we have today.

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The meta teams ran: Firestarter +Dragon Slayer. If we wanna go back before that, they ran Highlander, and Raven 3L, or Spider 5D. If we wanna go back before that, they ran Cataphract + Raven 3L or Spider 5D, with maybe a Jenner F.

The times of Jump Sniping, yeah. And good teams were able to smoke those teams with brawler-setups - which worked btw. It was harder to execute because you had to get close, but once you did, you won.

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For Mediums, it was Shadowhawk or go home. SOMETIMES, we'd see an Atlas DDC in the mix.

And where is the Shadowhawk now? Right, never seen again. After the Quirks, the Shadowhawk got nothing - because of the Quirks. The performance difference between the 55-ton mediums was based a little around the hardpoints and a little bit around the geometry - that was it. Not around "double my dps please". They were much closer together. If you took a Griffin SRM boat and put a Shadowhawk right beside it, both were pretty close together. Compare them now.

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No my friend, the performance margin has been the closest it's ever been now, than before.

Like the Dragon 1-N? Are you serious?

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No, it really won't The summoner still brings less tonnage, to the field, fewer weapons, and worse hitboxes. Unless you can recognize that fact, you really need to re-think your approach.

Lets take a little bit of math into this discussion:

Timberwolf: 75 ton, 89 kph --> 28 tons of pod space with a tiny armor reduction.
Summoner: 70 ton, 89 kph --> 21 tons of pod space
Summoner with Endo and Ferro: 24 tons of pod space (including 5 Jump Jets)

Now we add a couple of hardpoints (like I suggested) and its more than en par with the Timberwolf. That was my argument and it still is. With that, people might think about picking the Summoner.

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In terms of firepower and durability, the Summoner has lost, that's not gonna change with Ferro, and Endo unlocked.

By adding additional hardpoints this changes. The difference between those two will be much smaller and thats what I'm talking about here - to reduce the difference between those two. Endo is the way to go. Mobility quirks do NOTHING to make the Summoner more viable, because it lacks the pod space to bring that mobility to good use.

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So you need to focus on what makes the Summoner so different from the TBR, and what makes it work so well that it would be considered a viable option:


Mobility (this is where accel, decel, and turn radius quirks come in), and a few really big guns. The Summoner is a flanker, through and through. It shows in it's speed, it shows in it's hardpoints, and it shows in it's JJs. This mech is designed to bring a few really big guns, quickly to where they are most needed. So enhance that, make the JJs useful so it's not 5 wasted tons we're not getting back, and make it twist, move, and aim faster (that's where the torso movement, and arm movement quirks come in handy)

The Timberwolf has the same speed as the summoner. The Timberwolf has Jump Jets. The Timberwolf has a great turning rate and a lot of hard points. It also got 28 tons free for weapons. It can do everything the Summoner can do - just better. You "mobility" approach will change nothing.

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Following your suggestions, yes. Absolutely, 100%, the TBR has better hitboxes, more firepower, better range of movement, and more hardpoints. Your suggestions just give the summoner a few more tons to use, not enough tons to begin with, without addressing why we have the summoner, and how we can make it a viable option.

Viable means: Able to stay en par with the timberwolf.

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You're literally saying: "let's make it a lesser timberwolf" This guarantees that no one will use it over the TBR. So instead, approach the problem from a different angle: Role, and application.

Other way around: The timber can already do what the Summoner-role you suggested tries to accomplish.

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The TBR will always bring more guns to the fight, and will tank better, on average. It moves at the exact same speed (before the SMN speed quirk is factored in), it twists better, with better ranges, and tanks infinitely better, not just because it has 5 tons on the Summoner, but because it's rear hitboxes are so good, you can get away with putting only 2 points in the rear, and front load everything.

Good that you see that. Now, try to bring all those advantages in comparison with the current Summoner. You really think your "mobility" adjustments will help the summoner? Its a havy mech - it loses against the Timberwolf 5 tons above it and it loses against the Hellbringer/Ebon Jaguar 5 tons below it. Its a wasted mech that does not stand a chance against any of those chassis.

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The Summoner will always be better at traversing terrain courtesy of the JJs (mostly because it has so many, not because the JJs are good right now), The summoner will always have big guns, but it'll only bring 1 or 2 of those. If tries to bring loads of smaller guns, it loses. So make it work with those better. It's a heavy weapons platform, make it excel there.

Because single big gun work perfectly on mechs with low pod space like... the Gargoyle, right? I call BS.

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The TBR is a striker, but the SMN can be a much better mobile artillery mech.

"Artillery" - yeah, give him a Long Tom. WTF are you even talking about? LRMs? Seriously?

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Uhhhh.... Who said anything about stock loadouts? I can understand your confusion, and I should have phrased it better, considering we have many people who want the game to run stock only, or things like that. By "source material", I meant descriptions of the Summoner in fluff, and how the mech is set apart from others. Also, how omnis worked there, and here.

Okay, so back to the "character" of a mech, the Summoner was even performing bad in the lore, which is why the Summoner II was invented with exactly the changes I've proposed (so even in lore they saw the problems with that mech)

Also, the lore-argument got a problem: Its not MWO.

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Yeah, ok. Did I say they should just give the Nova quirks? I said that I would recommend bringing the arms closer. Quirks will definitely help the Nova, but the wide arms can be a problem sometimes.

Which would bring PGI back to the drawing board to re-design the mech which they won't do! They did not do it for the Awesome but just gave it Quirks. They won't do it for the Nova either! If PGI would implement everything just fine, we wouldn't have Ghost Heat. But we have!

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Yes, and a meteor could hit me on my out of the house. Should I stay inside and never leave?

You could try to take a realistic approach.

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With the cockpit shake extended to the entire duration of the jump, I don't see any problems with upping JJs back. Also, one of the biggest reasons Jump Sniping was working, is because you had to invest in only one or two jumpjets to get all the lift you need. With the way JJs have been restructured now, it won't work the same. Increasing impulse on the JJs, proportional to how many are mounted would really help the Summoner.

MW:LL had a good solution to the JJ: One fast (and high) Jump over a long distance and a standing mech once it landed. No "hopping".

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A stop gap solution for what? It's not like the Adder suddenly became competitive because we freed an extra slot, and 0.5 tons.

A stop gap solution for balance. Did you read what I wrote or are you just trying to give a counter to everything I said?

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The Kitfox is 5 tons lighter, and still better.

Good that you see that. And you are fine with that? Yes? No?

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Some might argue that even the Mist Lynx is infinitely better. The MLX is definitely better than the ADR in CW, hands down. Even if it brings less firepower.

So what could the Adder get to balance out its lack of ECM? A fixed Flamer won't help. Even IF the Flamer gets a buff to make it usable, it should still be the choice of the player to take in what he likes.

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Literally the only build that truly benefited from removing the flamer is the LRM set up, because now you can put a TAG above the cockpit. That's all it did for the Adder. Fixing the flamer would have been the better choice, since it bring an entire weapon system back from the scrap yard, and makes that flamer on the adder valuable.

LRMs again... I have a Laser vomit in it - the CT-Flamer was replaced by a Medium Pulse Laser.

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Also, removing the Flamer establishes a precedence for breaking construction rules. What's next? 400 engine cap on all mechs?

Oh, so the construction rules were never broken before? Like... Ghost heat, Quirks, changing the range, heat and damage values of weapons... not?

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Agreed, I disagree with the methods you're proposing because they don't address the problems with the chassis in question. They'll make them less underperforming, but underperforming nonetheless.

I'm making a cause-effect analysis, you just bring in claims without backing them up and try to insult other opinions by imputation. By mentioning "artillery mech" for the Summoners role you showed pretty much everything about your thought-process - esp. regarding you 'mobility claim' to make it more viable.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 21 June 2015 - 04:41 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Russhuster, on 21 June 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

unlockuing fix JJ endo and FFB for Clan mechs wont do evil

BECAUSE
Most of the so-called Top Mechs already have FFB and ENDO steel Structure like TBR and SCR for example
whilst improving Mechs like the Summoner the nova etc the good mechs wont get better ! an ideal way of closing the gap

Thank you! Thats exactly the idea behind it. Closing the gap to widen the spectrum of mechs used in game.

[IraqiWalker]

Russhuster, on 21 June 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

yah 2 tons with lowered AR and for both AK and LRM Ammo you do see the discrepance?

There is no discrepancy, if we had A-pods, then we would have the full stock loadout. However, since they pods are useless here PGI removed them, and gave us 2 more tons of armor.

Russhuster, on 21 June 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

Maybe it wont Fix the Problematic completely but it will ease alot the upset Clan Players,.. quite a few feel treated unfair with quirk lists in shiny red
but iam keen on reading your Suggestions to fix that Problem in Case you see a Problem there at all ?

I already listed my suggestions for fixes in my above posts.(also, check your quirks again, there are almost NO negative quirks on any clan mechs, other than the SCR, TBR, and 3 pods or so on the DWF.)

Russhuster, on 21 June 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

Making them suck less wont be the quitessence of all Wisdom, I agree; But making them suck less may be a start no?
Clan Players are imho competition likers otherwise they wont play clan anymore

This is not fixing it in the right direction.

There's a difference between treating the symptoms, and treating the disease. What you and Tuatha are suggesting is only treating the symptoms, which isn't curing the patient at all. Just making their death less painful.


Response to Tuatha's post:

Spoiler

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Then we have a different perception about the difference back then. I was able to wield anything from Shadowhawk, over Stalker with 4 LPL, to the Muromets and even the Thunderbolts and Orions with success. The variety of build you were able to use was large and the performance difference was rather small compared to the builds we have today.

Where? In the solo queue? 12 flamer Novas work in the solo queue. I'm talking about where performance really matters: Competitive queue. Tournament after tournament, we only had 3 or 4 mechs

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

The times of Jump Sniping, yeah. And good teams were able to smoke those teams with brawler-setups - which worked btw. It was harder to execute because you had to get close, but once you did, you won.

Yes, except no good team beat a poptart team with a brawler set up in competitive play more than once. You had to allocate 3 mechs to kill one poptart, and when we didn't have the 3x4 rule it was 4 lights, and 8 poptarts, making sure you never close to within 500 meters of them.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

And where is the Shadowhawk now? Right, never seen again. After the Quirks, the Shadowhawk got nothing - because of the Quirks. The performance difference between the 55-ton mediums was based a little around the hardpoints and a little bit around the geometry - that was it. Not around "double my dps please". There were much closer together. If you took a Griffin SRM boat and put a Shadowhawk right beside it, both were pretty close together. Compare them now.

Are weapon quirks being over done, and not the right direction? I agree. Hell, I stated it above, and in other posts on these forums.
What exactly is your point here? That the meta changed? We all knew that.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Like the Dragon 1-N? Are you serious?

What about the Dragon 1N? It would really help me understand your points, if you actually elaborate, and not post half sentences and unfinished thoughts.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Lets take a little bit of math into this discussion:

Timberwolf: 75 ton, 89 kph --> 28 tons of pod space with a tiny armor reduction.
Summoner: 70 ton, 89 kph --> 21 tons of pod space
Summoner with Endo and Ferro: 24 tons of pod space (including 5 Jump Jets)

Now we add a couple of hardpoints (like I suggested) and its more than en par with the Timberwolf. That was my argument and it still is. With that, people might think about picking the Summoner.

By adding additional hardpoints this changes. The difference between those two will be much smaller and thats what I'm talking about here - to reduce the difference between those two. Endo is the way to go. Mobility quirks do NOTHING to make the Summoner more viable, because it lacks the pod space to bring that mobility to good use.

You're still not getting it. Making the summoner compete with the TBR at what the TBR is good at will always end the same: The Summoner loses. Until you can understand that, there's nothing I can do for you. Focus on what the summoner IS good at. It can be more mobile, it can maneuver better, it doesn't long in a stand up fight, but if it hits someone from the side, it can end them. So focus on that.

All you've succeeded in making with your modification, is a weaker Timberwolf. Why would I pick that over the TBR? Move away from the "put more guns on it" school of thought, and switch to the "Put a few really big guns on it, and let it move them quickly across the battlefield" mentality.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

The Timberwolf has the same speed as the summoner. The Timberwolf has Jump Jets. The Timberwolf has a great turning rate and a lot of hard points. It also got 28 tons free for weapons. It can do everything the Summoner can do - just better. You "mobility" approach will change nothing.

Not with the speed quirk that the summoner has. The summoner moves faster now. Up that by another 2.5-5%. Make the JJs worthwhile on it. That way, if the TBR wants to compete with it, it will have to sink more tonnage into JJs, than just the 2. Better twist rates and ranges allow the mech to spread damage better, which mitigates from it's fragility. Better turning radius, and accel/decel rates allow the mech to handle all terrain better, which makes cluttered locations like city blocks less of a problem for this mech. It can actually make it a great urban fighter.

Being harder to hit is much better than armor. The TBR can bring a lot of guns yes, but it's not used for big gun duty, like a UAC 20. It's also put more into the front line than anywhere else, whereas the Summoner can flank, and hit from the side.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Viable means: Able to stay en par with the timberwolf.

That's where you and I differ in our approach. I'm not trying to make a TBR 0.75. For me, viable means it's a valid choice instead of the Timberwolf. When I tell my teammates that I'm bringing a summoner I don't want them to go "Why on earth would you do that?" I want them to think "Okay. It'll work". Having a mobile striker like the SMN can be a great asset.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Other way around: The timber can already do what the Summoner-role you suggested tries to accomplish.

Not really, the TBR is mainly focused on front line hits, Packing Gauss as the biggest weapon, if at all, while boating lasers. The TBR is mostly used in a duelist/front line role. It's rarely if ever used on the sidelines.

Also, this hinges on the Summoner remaining as underwhelming as it will be with your upgrades. Pump up the mobility, make the JJs stronger, and the Summoner can now excel in that role better than the TBR.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Good that you see that. Now, try to bring all those advantages in comparison with the current Summoner. You really think your "mobility" adjustments will help the summoner? Its a havy mech - it loses against the Timberwolf 5 tons above it and it loses against the Hellbringer/Ebon Jaguar 5 tons below it. Its a wasted mech that does not stand a chance against any of those chassis.

Yes, I believe the mobility, and nimbleness quirks will help it a lot. Coupled with a buff or two for the really big guns.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Because single big gun work perfoectly on mechs with low pod space like... the Gargoyle, right? I call BS.

Actually, yes. Take a gander at the GAR-C. Swap the UAC 20 for a Gauss, and you're set, and that's as a stock loadout, without changing anything else.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

"Artillery" - yeah, give him a Long Tom. WTF are you even talking about? LRMs? Seriously?

I'm not talking about LRMs. Although I can see your misunderstanding, since the Summoner can strap quite a few big launchers in there, but no. I'm talking artillery as in UAC 20, UAC 10, Gauss, LBX 10, LBX 20. That's what I meant by artillery. The Summoner can move these big guns across the field very quickly, and that is a great asset. It's profile is also not as big as the TBR, and with the ability to twist like it's got a 375 in there, it will be able to use it well to spread the damage.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Okay, so back to the "character" of a mech, the Summoner was even performing bad in the lore, which is why the Summoner II was invented with exactly the changes I've proposed (so even in lore they saw the problems with that mech)

Also, the lore-argument got a problem: Its not MWO.

I was wondering when the Summoner II argument was gonna pop up. Two major problems I have with the argument:

1- By already slapping these upgrades on the Thor, we immediately invalidate the Thor 2 from showing up. So instead of having 2 mechs with their unique styles of play, we'll have 2 almost Timberwolves. Or maybe just 1, since the Thor II would be redundant.

2- It's not 3093 yet, and timeline aside. It still doesn't solve the problem of the Summoner.

In a competitive drop, I will still have NO reason to pick an almost Timberwolf, over a full Timberwolf. Even if we give it more hardpoint pods. Give it FF, and Endo, it's still going to be less. This direction doesn't solve the problem. Putting a bandaid over a gunshot wound help, but it doesn't treat the condition. Taking the bullet out, and closing the breached vessels does.

If you want the Summoner to be a viable choice compared to the TBR, or the EBJ, then you want it to play in a different style from them. Not make it play almost as well as they do.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Which would bring PGI back to the drawing board to re-design the mech which they won't do! They did not do it for the Awesome but just gave it Quirks. They won't do it for the Nova either! If PGI would implement everything just fine, we wouldn't have Ghost Heat. But we have!

Then quirks is what we'll use. The Nova already has a long list of good quirks. However, much like the Summoner, it needs better JJs, to make the tonnage investment worth it. The Nova is not lacking in the firepower department, it can reduce mechs more than twice it's tonnage to slag at a terrifying rate, but it moves clunky, and the hitbox could use an adjustment. That's all it really needs.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

You could try to take a realistic approach.

Let's go with the realistic approach. Fixing JJs won't bring Jump sniping back. What did Jump sniping rely on?

1- Instant convergence

2- Multiple weapons with synchronized speeds, to deliver alphas in excess of 30 damage.

we already eliminated point 2 from the equation. If PGI buffs JJs again, they could make the shake extend for the whole jump. Jump sniping won't be back with JJs fixed. We don't have Gauss and PPCs synched up again. We don't have AC 5s, and PPC synched again. Hell, with Gauss Charge alone, jump sniping became quite a feat to achieve.

That's the realistic approach for what would happen.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

MW:LL had a good solution to the JJ: One fast (and high) Jump over a long distance and a standing mech once it landed. No "hopping".

Yeah, you got to fly for a bit. I admit, it definitely stopped poptarting from being a thing. It could be implemented here, but considering what I listed above, it's not gonna be necessary (though I'd love to see what a 12 JJ SDR-5V feel like with that impulse). On the other hand, being hung up in the air for that long is a death sentence. Out mechs don't stay in the air for a third of that period, and I can still drop them down mid-air.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

A stop gap solution for balance. Did you read what I wrote or are you just trying to give a counter to everything I said?

I did read it. Removing the flamer didn't improve the Adder's position by much, and left us with a weapon system that is still worthless. Instead of fixing the flamer, and actually making it a boon for everyone. It also did not improve balance.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Good that you see that. And you are fine with that? Yes? No?

Not really fine with it, no. I like that the Kitfox fills the escort niche with ECM, and AMS, and I want it to remain excellent at that.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

So what could the Adder get to balance out its lack of ECM? A fixed Flamer won't help. Even IF the Flamer gets a buff to make it usable, it should still be the choice of the player to take in what he likes.

ECM isn't what the adder needs. It would help, but I think we need something to set it apart, like sensor quirks, maybe a lower profile quirk, where it can't be detected beyond 600 meters. It's already a low profile mech, make that play for it. Armor quirks could help, maybe ammo quirks on ballistic weapons. I'm not fully sure.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

LRMs again... I have a Laser vomit in it - the CT-Flamer was replaced by a Medium Pulse Laser.

Yes, and what a boon that was for the Adder, an extra energy slot. It helps, but it doesn't fix the problems the chassis had. Maybe I'm at a point where I'm too cynical, but I really don't care for half measures. I would rather they implement full ones. If they made that flamer worth the half ton it was taking, people would keep it. Some might even slap multiples in there.

I don't have a full solution for the adder, but some of my suggestions in the part above seem a better solution in my opinion than freeing up 0.5 tons.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Oh, so the construction rules were never broken before? Like... Ghost heat, Quirks, changing the range, heat and damage values of weapons... not?

Most of those are stats, and Ghost Heat, while hated, is actually a solid system that helped fix a major problem we had (scaling heat caps+PPFLD+no heat penalties = 4PPC stalkers eating your face every day)
Quirks helped bring more mechs into the forefront. Now we can start toning down some of the stronger ones, and bring things in line better than before.

Without quirks we'd still be back at a meta where only 2-3 mechs are viable, and the difference between tier 1, and 2 is like that between heaven and earth.

I don't agree with what they did with some of the weapons, but for balance, I still support them modifying them. This is a 12 v 12 PVP game. Balance is possibly the most important element.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

I'm making a cause-effect analysis, you just bring in claims without backing them up and try to insult other opinions by imputation. By mentioning "artillery mech" for the Summoners role you showed pretty much everything about your though-process.

1- You yourself admitted your solutions won't fix the problem. Again I repeat: Making them suck less, is not the same as making them good. They would still suck.

2- You misunderstood what I meant by artillery, despite my post not ONCE mentioning LRMs with Summoners. So that's on you.

3- You brought up suggestions, I tried to explain to you why they wouldn't work, and why you're approaching this from the wrong angle. If you can't handle criticism, that's not my fault. I didn't even insult anyone's opinion. Any perceived insults are on your end. At most, I questioned some people's knowledge of the subject matter.

Finally: Correlation does not equal causation. These mechs don't suck just because they don't have Endo, and FF. Nor will giving them those two upgrades fix them. You yourself conceded that point multiple times. What's the point in bridging the gap, if the gap is still there?

This is a discussion. You're saying your idea works best, and will make the mechs suck less. I'm saying my ideas will work best, and make the mechs actually good. You can criticize my ideas, and I can criticize yours, it's a civil discussion. Keep that way. right now, you're the one that tried to insult me with that "you showed pretty much everything about your though-process" (there's a T in there you missed in thoughT), even though it was your own misunderstanding.


Even looking at our positions, and goals we're going for different things. I want, and aim for viability, you want viability, but are aiming for "less bad".

I think when a Summoner can dance around a Timberwolf, and out-maneuver it, then even it's comparatively smaller firepower will be better. It's similar to what light mechs rely on. If you can't hit me, and I can hit you, even if all I have is 1 ML, I'm going to win. That allows a mech to have some form of comparative parity. That allows a mech to actually be considered a viable choice.


EDIT: Giving the Summoner ST pods with one Energy slot each could help out a LOT

Edited by IraqiWalker, 21 June 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[Russhuster]

U´re welcome, to explain how this cure may work,..
and sory my fault i had the impression you were joking with that suggestions. I did speak of useful and effective mesures
You do suggest acceleration and deceleration quirks or torso twist quirks for the summoner even more or more effective Jump jets what will make the Summoner to a Rabbit with a very puny ammount of amunition. to soon the mech will be out of ammo and next to useless

A rabbit, even a little faster one ist still a rabbit and without any teeth i have my doubts about the acceptance of that bait, I played Summoner myself and found its agility very good so far And would you like to be in such a Rabbit Mech when your Game is stuffed with alpha strike TDR and Dakka AK Dragons?
simply be honest to yourself

Dont misunderstand me Your Suggestion is interesting in developing a special caharacteristic for the Summoner but that is just half the cure, maybe we combine our suggestions
I dont denie the fact more agility wont do harm, but isnt really the Problem of the Summoner esp when you do unlock speed tweak but a lousy Weapon load is.
The Speed / agility buff would be a interesting Characteristica and may attract Players when the Summoner has that little extra Tonnage even make it preferable to the Timberwolf bit without that Tonnage up it wont do the job.
What do you think?

To Your Suggestions above What Artilery are you speaking of =?? Long Tom???

Are you awareof the buggy state the Clan UAC are in there are Threads full of complains about that matter but nothing happens why do you think the AC/ UAC are used so little by the Clan side
Simply becaue the weapon has a bug to denie firing no jamming no ammo explosion that lasts some seconds ( 3-10 seconds ) then it works again inclusive jamming till next time when it decides to not being in the mood to fire
This can be quit annoying when a Blackjack or Firebrand ist sountering over to your position to say hello

besides Clan are no Followers of Artillery or Airstrikes THat could be a IS only Feature to strengthen some of the less likes IS Mechs like cicada not every mech should be able to call those

And You are very right Balance IS of the essence, BUT ths state we have now is definitely NOT balanced
not Clan versus IS not even IS vs IS as the quirk-lorries like Thunderbolt Dakka-dragon etc have left any relation

The Nova is a broad and low build mech thats one of its Characteristic good to hide behind a building
but its also a walking barbecue and smoker so some more Tonnage or even better heat absorbing ability would be very welcome both reachable with endo/ffb jj unlock
The flammer unlock was a good decision for the Adder there as well the unlocking would do some good
Maybe some Armor quirks and a decent speedup will help the little one The Flammer in its current state is simply unseless, well in facetanking action it can take the sight out of the opponent but thats it
What would you suggest for a Mech like the Gargoyle or the Executioner ?
or the Mist Lynx and ice Ferret ?

Edited by Russhuster, 21 June 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

IraqiWalker, on 21 June 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

Where? In the solo queue? 12 flamer Novas work in the solo queue. I'm talking about where performance really matters: Competitive queue. Tournament after tournament, we only had 3 or 4 mechs

Okay, lets focus on the 3 meta-mechs and completely miss the point that was relevant for the discussion.

Again: The non-quirked IS-only chassis without stuff like jump-sniping or 6 PPC Stalker or broken-hitbox-spiders were close together in terms and performance and beside the broken chassis like Awesome and Dragon (because of the big CT geometry) we saw any mech on the battlefield: Shadowhawk, Griffin, Cataphract, Catapult K-2, Jagermech, Stalker, Atlas and Jenner (etc)
There were still some mechs missing because they were broken (because of the bad geometry) but NOT because they lacked hardpoints, pod space or heat reduction or double_my_dps Quirks like we have now. That is my point. The difference of chosing one mech over another was the ability to equip a single JJ (Kintaro vs. Shadowhawk) - the difference now is time-to-kill by raw DPS and Alpha numbers.

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Yes, except no good team beat a poptart team with a brawler set up in competitive play more than once. You had to allocate 3 mechs to kill one poptart, and when we didn't have the 3x4 rule it was 4 lights, and 8 poptarts, making sure you never close to within 500 meters of them.

See my answer above: I'm talking about the difference in mech performance, not about "abusing exploits" or however you want to call it. That jump sniping was a problem is another topic we could talk about, but is not the issue here.

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Are weapon quirks being over done, and not the right direction? I agree. Hell, I stated it above, and in other posts on these forums.

What exactly is your point here? That the meta changed? We all knew that.

Again: My point is to bring the performance difference of mechs closer together, THEN to apply soft Quirks on them to shape them into a character. If a single Jump Jets was capable to put a mech in Tier 1 while the mech without it was Tier 5 because of it, then the power creep we have right now is a multiple times higher.

Again:
1.) Bring the mechs closer together
2.) Then apply soft Quriks to give their chassis a character and to shape their roles

In order to get point 1, wen need Endo+Ferro + dynamic equipment instead of fixed. Then we can apply point 2 - which would enable the summoner to get a distinct role that seperates it from mechs like the timber, hellbringer or ebon jaguar without having only 50% of their firepower.

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What about the Dragon 1N? It would really help me understand your points, if you actually elaborate, and not post half sentences and unfinished thoughts.

I don't like to be forced to repeat myself. Here again:

And where is the Shadowhawk now? Right, never seen again. After the Quirks, the Shadowhawk got nothing - because of the Quirks. The performance difference between the 55-ton mediums was based a little around the hardpoints and a little bit around the geometry - that was it. Not around "double my dps please". They were much closer together. If you took a Griffin SRM boat and put a Shadowhawk right beside it, both were pretty close together. Compare them now.

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You're still not getting it. Making the summoner compete with the TBR at what the TBR is good at will always end the same: The Summoner loses. Until you can understand that, there's nothing I can do for you. Focus on what the summoner IS good at. It can be more mobile, it can maneuver better, it doesn't long in a stand up fight, but if it hits someone from the side, it can end them. So focus on that.

And I repeat myself:
The Timberwolf has Jump Jets. The Timberwolf has a great turning rate and a lot of hard points. It also got 28 tons free for weapons. It can do everything the Summoner can do - just better. You "mobility" approach will change nothing.

We are running in circles here. I make a statement, you try to avoid it and bring a completely irrelevant side-point to evade my argument. Then you turn it around and try to make me the one to counter your 'argument' while I you still have to answer mine.
The Tim,berwolf is already what the Summoner tries to be - and more. The Timberwolf is an alpha striker, or a flanker, or an assault-heavy, or a dps-monster. The Summoner can - if only be a flanker. That makes the Timberwolf superior to the Summoner in every aspect. THATS the problem. The summoner can't compete.

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All you've succeeded in making with your modification, is a weaker Timberwolf.

Where did I say that? On the contrary, I said: "Buff the weak, leave the strong as they are". Stop putting words into my posts I've never written. Thanks!

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Why would I pick that over the TBR?

See my first post.

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Move away from the "put more guns on it" school of thought, and switch to the "Put a few really big guns on it,

Why? Care to elaborate your claim? The meta right now IS all about guns. Your claim is counter-intuitive.

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and let it move them quickly across the battlefield" mentality.

Its a heavy, not a light. And again: Why? What is your desired speed? Elaborate, argue, give examples, make a point, not just a claim! Show us blind and stupid unworthy mechpilots your wisdom and tell us how a summoner must be!

For example: A 70 ton mech running around with an Ultra AC/20 and 4 Medium Pulse lasers with enough speed to catch Storm crows!

That could make sense. And how can we build such a mech? Oh... we can't, because the engine would break the 400-limit. So it can't catch a Stormcrow. What else can it do with its speed? Well, running with a Mad-Cat... oh... thats... what every Clan mech beside 85+ tons can do. Hmm... okay, what about Jumping... oh, the Mad cat can do that too... Well... please, tell me your vision.

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Not with the speed quirk that the summoner has. The summoner moves faster now. Up that by another 2.5-5%. Make the JJs worthwhile on it. That way, if the TBR wants to compete with it, it will have to sink more tonnage into JJs, than just the 2. Better twist rates and ranges allow the mech to spread damage better, which mitigates from it's fragility. Better turning radius, and accel/decel rates allow the mech to handle all terrain better, which makes cluttered locations like city blocks less of a problem for this mech. It can actually make it a great urban fighter.

Okay, assuming the Summoner will get all that, I would still pick a Timberwolf. Maybe you would pick the Summoner. What about the rest of the community?

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Being harder to hit is much better than armor.

Yes, esp. with broken hit-reg like on Lights, which aborb an laugable amount of Laser-damage because of broken hitboxes and lag - up to 5-10 times more than they should. Good, lets fix the Summoner by making it using broken game mechanics! Is that what you want to say?

Other than that the Summoner is so big that I cannot miss it. Lights? They may evade fire, but anything as big as a Cicada and bigger is a target that cannot be missed - at least by halfway capable gunners.

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The TBR can bring a lot of guns yes, but it's not used for big gun duty, like a UAC 20.

Erm... what? 4xSRM6 w/Artemis is not a big gun? Fire&Twist anyone?
Also: Elaborate your claim. I see Madcats with a 70+ alpha running around, which IS big gun.

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It's also put more into the front line than anywhere else, whereas the Summoner can flank, and hit from the side.

Oh dear..., it is put on the frontline because it can as it has big guns whereas the Summoner must flank as it cannot go on the fron because it misses the big guns. Same with the Gargoyle btw. Just because a mech doesn't have the pod-space to mount Dual-Gauss doesn't mean that it is fit to be a flanker. The Gargoyle for example misses the Jump Jets, which it would need to be a better flanker.

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That's where you and I differ in our approach. I'm not trying to make a TBR 0.75. For me, viable means it's a valid choice instead of the Timberwolf.

Choice is a good point... I like choice. Like having the choice to equip Endosteel. Or to unequip Jump Jets I don't need.

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When I tell my teammates that I'm bringing a summoner I don't want them to go "Why on earth would you do that?" I want them to think "Okay. It'll work". Having a mobile striker like the SMN can be a great asset.

See? Then we have the same goal here.

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Not really, the TBR is mainly focused on front line hits, Packing Gauss as the biggest weapon, if at all, while boating lasers. The TBR is mostly used in a duelist/front line role. It's rarely if ever used on the sidelines.

I call BS. Timber can mount 1xGauss+2xPPC, Laservomit on mid/longrange, SRMs for brawl or LRMs for noobs. Timber can do frontline, because its your choice, but you can also do anything else you desire. Summoner can't. Why? Because of limited pod space and hardpoints.

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Also, this hinges on the Summoner remaining as underwhelming as it will be with your upgrades.

Why? Can I have an argument for your claim please?

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Pump up the mobility, make the JJs stronger, and the Summoner can now excel in that role better than the TBR.

Why? Can I have an argument for your claim please? The timberwolf is already pretty nimble. To make a real difference, the summoner must have light-specs in terms of speed and mobility, which is not only impossible to do, but would also would look stupid.

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Yes, I believe the mobility, and nimbleness quirks will help it a lot. Coupled with a buff or two for the really big guns.

Which is essentially a call to overquirk this thing. You would need insane Quirks not get it into similar heights as the Timberwolf.

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Actually, yes. Take a gander at the GAR-C. Swap the UAC 20 for a Gauss, and you're set, and that's as a stock loadout, without changing anything else.

I can put that loadout into an Ebon Jaguar. With better heat efficiency, smaller profile and more ammo. Both have no JJ. What is the point of that Gargoyle again?

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I'm not talking about LRMs. Although I can see your misunderstanding, since the Summoner can strap quite a few big launchers in there, but no. I'm talking artillery as in UAC 20, UAC 10, Gauss, LBX 10, LBX 20. That's what I meant by artillery. The Summoner can move these big guns across the field very quickly, and that is a great asset. It's profile is also not as big as the TBR, and with the ability to twist like it's got a 375 in there, it will be able to use it well to spread the damage.

Sorry, you lost me there. The difference between the 350 and 375 is very small and ultra-short range weapons are the opposite of "artillery". You mean "big guns" I assume? For that you need pod space, which the summoner does not have.

Yes, as single AC/20 with 4 tons of ammo and something like 5 medium pulse lasers sounds nice. Put in a lot of DHS to have it run cool, have your JJ and speed and be a flanker. That would fit the image of what you descibe... with the little problem that the Summoner misses about 12-14 tons of pos space to do that.

With one UAC20 and 4 med-pulse lasers its already full. It needs another 2 tons for the fifth, +4 tons for the UAC/20 ammo and around +6 (better 8) tons for additional doube heat sinks.

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1- By already slapping these upgrades on the Thor, we immediately invalidate the Thor 2 from showing up

Which is good as it save PGI quite some work.

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So instead of having 2 mechs with their unique styles of play, we'll have 2 almost Timberwolves. Or maybe just 1, since the Thor II would be redundant.

Every mech with enough pod space tries to be a Timberwolf these days. Its the meta.

Quote

2- It's not 3093 yet, and timeline aside. It still doesn't solve the problem of the Summoner.

Oh, the lore argument... I though we talk about the gameplay here? Not? Okay, nevermind. Lets run all stock mechs then.

Quote

In a competitive drop,

But.. but... lore! Stock mechs...

Quote

I will still have NO reason to pick an almost Timberwolf, over a full Timberwolf.

Which is bad, right? So we need to give the close-to-timberwolf mech some soft Quirks to make it competetive and we are done. Way to go endo-steel to get to the first part!

Quote

Even if we give it more hardpoint pods.

Claim =1
Argument = 0.

I claim that it will be better with more hardpoints, because you have more hardpoints, like a firestarter with 6 energy hardpoints is better than a firestarter with 1 energy hardpoint.

Quote

Give it FF, and Endo, it's still going to be less.

Claim =1
Argument = 0

I claim it will be better because you get more pod space, which can be used to fill the additional hardpoints with more weapons or better weapons that have more punch.

Quote

This direction doesn't solve the problem.

Why not? Argument?

Quote

Putting a bandaid over a gunshot wound help, but it doesn't treat the condition.

Nice metaphor, I'm still waiting for an argument.

Quote

Taking the bullet out, and closing the breached vessels does.

Oh, and I have already elaborated the "wound" - the lack of pod space.

Quote

If you want the Summoner to be a viable choice compared to the TBR, or the EBJ, then you want it to play in a different style from them. Not make it play almost as well as they do.

But the Ebon Jag and the Timber play in one league because of... the same pod space, despite have 10 tons of tonnage difference. While the summoner being bad between those two does lack one thing when comparing them: Yes: Pod space. (and harpoints)

On this note, I'll end this... In my opinion, its pod space (and hardpoints), because the mechs with the most pod space in the game ARE the meta mechs. The mechs with the least pod space are the least used ones. Break this argument with a sane, elaborated and counter-argument that does not include fuzzy stuff and I'll continue, but at this point, out viewpoints are so different that I do not see a common base to argue about.

[Russhuster]

In addition i have to say that the Timberwolf S was a bad choice Timberwolves in the least cases had jumpjets only Jadefalcons ha that stupid idea, taking the Jump Ability from the TBR and giving the Summoner this ability plus some extra Tonnage and agility would create a real Alternative to the Timberwolf in the new Summoner
Would you agree to this suggestion?

BUT

The buggy Clan AK / UAK need to be fixed first No one s wearing a gun that just fires when the gun feels in the mood to

Edited by Russhuster, 21 June 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Okay, lets focus on the 3 meta-mechs and completely miss the point that was relevant for the discussion.

Again: The non-quirked IS-only chassis without stuff like jump-sniping or 6 PPC Stalker or broken-hitbox-spiders were close together in terms and performance and beside the broken chassis like Awesome and Dragon (because of the big CT geometry) we saw any mech on the battlefield: Shadowhawk, Griffin, Cataphract, Catapult K-2, Jagermech, Stalker, Atlas and Jenner (etc)
There were still some mechs missing because they were broken (because of the bad geometry) but NOT because they lacked hardpoints, pod space or heat reduction or double_my_dps Quirks like we have now. That is my point. The difference of chosing one mech over another was the ability to equip a single JJ (Kintaro vs. Shadowhawk) - the difference now is time-to-kill by raw DPS and Alpha numbers.

We still see all these mechs in the public queue. The main difference now is that the competitive queue has at least 6 times the variety it did before. Public queue is still the same. Everyone runs whatever they want however they want. The fact that people are using a different criteria while still getting the same result is not an argument against quirks. We still see all mechs on the field, in all kinds of builds.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

See my answer above: I'm talking about the difference in mech performance, not about "abusing exploits" or however you want to call it. That jump sniping was a problem is another topic we could talk about, but is not the issue here.

YOU brought up the point that brawler builds could beat poptart builds. I just explained to you why that is BS, and didn't really work that well.

So far, I've replied to two sections where you are the one that deviates from the point, or tries to deflect.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Again: My point is to bring the performance difference of mechs closer together, THEN to apply soft Quirks on them to shape them into a character. If a single Jump Jets was capable to put a mech in Tier 1 while the mech without it was Tier 5 because of it, then the power creep we have right now is a multiple times higher.

This is an argument against weapon quirks. Which I already agreed are being over-used. As for your analysis of performance margins back then and now, I disagree. Simply because the difference between the tiers is significantly closer now than it was before.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Again:
1.) Bring the mechs closer together
2.) Then apply soft Quriks to give their chassis a character and to shape their roles

In order to get point 1, wen need Endo+Ferro + dynamic equipment instead of fixed. Then we can apply point 2 - which would enable the summoner to get a distinct role that seperates it from mechs like the timber, hellbringer or ebon jaguar without having only 50% of their firepower.



I don't like to be forced to repeat myself. Here again:

And where is the Shadowhawk now? Right, never seen again. After the Quirks, the Shadowhawk got nothing - because of the Quirks. The performance difference between the 55-ton mediums was based a little around the hardpoints and a little bit around the geometry - that was it. Not around "double my dps please". They were much closer together. If you took a Griffin SRM boat and put a Shadowhawk right beside it, both were pretty close together. Compare them now.



And I repeat myself:
The Timberwolf has Jump Jets. The Timberwolf has a great turning rate and a lot of hard points. It also got 28 tons free for weapons. It can do everything the Summoner can do - just better. You "mobility" approach will change nothing.

We are running in circles here. I make a statement, you try to avoid it and bring a completely irrelevant side-point to evade my argument. Then you turn it around and try to make me the one to counter your 'argument' while I you still have to answer mine.
The Tim,berwolf is already what the Summoner tries to be - and more. The Timberwolf is an alpha striker, or a flanker, or an assault-heavy, or a dps-monster. The Summoner can - if only be a flanker. That makes the Timberwolf superior to the Summoner in every aspect. THATS the problem. The summoner can't compete.

I'm summarizing this entire section here:

Your fixes won't help. you're not even thinking beyond the first step. Let me explain: Let the Summoner have Endo+FF+removable JJs. Now it has about 28 tons? Same pod space as the TBR, right? The TBR can still pack the same loadouts, WITH as many JJs as you are putting on the summoner, while tanking better (hitboxes+better armor), and with a better hardpoint lay out.

Now you're not even piloting a summoner anymore.

On the other hand:

Increase it's top speed (no need change the engine, you can use quirks to put the mech at a decent speed). Give it the agility quirks so it can better spread damage, and move those guns around. Fix it's JJs so they are great again. Even with some minor quirks to the weapons, the mech will be much better at flanking, than the TBR. It'll be faster, more mobile, and will have a great role. Especially in CW, where it can work either as a decoy attack mech, or be the main objective hitter while the enemy team is busy with the rest it's teammates.

So stop trying to make the summoner into another Timberwolf, and try to make it work as a Summoner.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Where did I say that? On the contrary, I said: "Buff the weak, leave the strong as they are". Stop putting words into my posts I've never written. Thanks!

Your fixes will make a summoner that is still less than a TBR, effectively making a "weaker TBR". quoting you "Stop putting words into my posts I've never written. Thanks!"

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

See my first post.

I did, it's how we got here.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Why? Care to elaborate your claim? The meta right now IS all about guns. Your claim is counter-intuitive.

Because that, coupled with being more mobile than the TBR, would allow it to excel at something where it's not overshadowed by the TBR. Here's another thing to factor in: with my fixes, we're not going to invalidate the TBR if they work. We'll just offer another viable option for clan heavies, and CW drop decks that does something DIFFERENT, instead of being the same. Because this'll allow the TBR to still do other roles, while giving the Summoner it's own viability.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Its a heavy, not a light. And again: Why? What is your desired speed? Elaborate, argue, give examples, make a point, not just a claim! Show us blind and stupid unworthy mechpilots your wisdom and tell us how a summoner must be!

For example: A 70 ton mech running around with an Ultra AC/20 and 4 Medium Pulse lasers with enough speed to catch Storm crows!

That could make sense. And how can we build such a mech? Oh... we can't, because the engine would break the 400-limit. So it can't catch a Stormcrow. What else can it do with its speed? Well, running with a Mad-Cat... oh... thats... what every Clan mech beside 85+ tons can do. Hmm... okay, what about Jumping... oh, the Mad cat can do that too... Well... please, tell me your vision.

Why use the 4 MPLs, when you can use MLs, or SPLs? Not to bash on MPLs, they are a great mid-range weapon, but if we're going with a big UAC 20 like that. Then MLs or SPLs are a better choice. Still leaves you 5 tons for ammo, and DHS, not that you'd need any more DHS, the mech is cool enough as is. If you go with MPLs, then yes, you can have problems.

That load out moving at nearly 100 Kph (there's this thing called quirks, SMN already has some speed quirks, up them a bit, like I mentioned earlier. It helps) is great, it can do some serious harm, and it can do it's job as a flanker very well (you can replace the UAC 20 for Gauss, depending on style of flanking)

With buffed JJs the mech gets more durability (better at spreading damage, and dodging with jumping), and it will fit into it's role very well.

Right now, you can take a SMN-D, strap a UAC 20 to the ST (or take a ballistic arm if you want to cram even more ammo), and 4 ERMLs, or SPLs, or even SLs to the arms. The other 5+ tons of free pod space can go to ammo (if you want MPLs I would recommend using a 2MPL+2ML set up, with 3 tons of ammo for the UAC 20)

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Okay, assuming the Summoner will get all that, I would still pick a Timberwolf. Maybe you would pick the Summoner. What about the rest of the community?

I'm seeing a claim here, where's your argument? Why would you always pick the TBR over the SMN when it has those buffs I listed?

With my fixes, it's not a demi-TBR, but it's own thing. It's got a role that it can fill better than other clan heavies, and that lets it become more viable.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Yes, esp. with broken hit-reg like on Lights, which aborb an laugable amount of Laser-damage because of broken hitboxes and lag - up to 5-10 times more than they should. Good, lets fix the Summoner by making it using broken game mechanics! Is that what you want to say?

Other than that the Summoner is so big that I cannot miss it. Lights? They may evade fire, but anything as big as a Cicada and bigger is a target that cannot be missed - at least by halfway capable gunners.

True, you won't miss it as easily as you would a light, but it still adds to it's survivability, and in it's role of flanker, it will make it even harder to hit, since it's usually coming from the side. Increased speed+ buffed torso twist rates and ranges+buffed accel decel rates, allows the mech to perform hit and run attacks exceptionally well, and if you decide to go with the Gauss Config for maximum hit and run, you will be at ranges where moving at those speeds makes it very difficult for the enemy to land a hit on you where they want it to go, or even land it at all.


The summoner is also not using broken game mechanics. The problems with lights have a lot to do with their max speeds, and their tiny hitboxes. The Summoner has neither of those things, and won't have any problems like that. Do you have hitreg problems against the Dragon? Nope. Yet it moves faster than any other heavy in the game. So there's a real life example that refutes your claim.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Erm... what? 4xSRM6 w/Artemis is not a big gun? Fire&Twist anyone?
Also: Elaborate your claim. I see Madcats with a 70+ alpha running around, which IS big gun.

If you want a tasty one strap 4 SRM6s with 2 LPLs+2MLs for an alpha of 90 damage. I hope this shows you that trying to make it into another TBR isn't the right course of action. So let the TBR have a big alpha, and loads of dakka, and get the summoner to be really good with the few weapons it packs, and make it better at flanking. Because of it's hardpoint set ups + hitboxes, it can't front line better than the TBR, that's done. Unless you want to over-quirk it to high heaven.

So I repeat myself: Approach this problem differently, your solution is not really one. Because it won't give us a reason to ever pick the Summoner over the TBR, even if it got an extra ton of pod space over the TBR. It still loses to it on many other fronts, that pod-space can't compensate for. So make it work in a different way.

This is not a claim, it's simple fact. Stand the two mechs next to one another, and study them, you'll start to notice these things.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Oh dear..., it is put on the frontline because it can as it has big guns whereas the Summoner must flank as it cannot go on the fron because it misses the big guns. Same with the Gargoyle btw. Just because a mech doesn't have the pod-space to mount Dual-Gauss doesn't mean that it is fit to be a flanker. The Gargoyle for example misses the Jump Jets, which it would need to be a better flanker.

Oh hey, you're starting to get it. So make the summoner a good flanker. For the record, the Gargoyle is much better as a striker, and an escort mech than it is as a flanker.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Choice is a good point... I like choice. Like having the choice to equip Endosteel. Or to unequip Jump Jets I don't need.

Yeah. I'm gonna be against that one. On the other hand, I'd rather they make the JJs useful so that we do want to strap many of them to the mech, maybe even max. This way, the fix helps all JJ mechs, and makes JJs very viable, not useless. Bigger picture.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

See? Then we have the same goal here.

Yes, with two different approaches. You're trying to make the Summoner into another Timberwolf, which in my opinion is absolutely the wrong move on every level. While I'm trying to make the Summoner a Summoner, and make it viable on it's own merit.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

I call BS. Timber can mount 1xGauss+2xPPC, Laservomit on mid/longrange, SRMs for brawl or LRMs for noobs. Timber can do frontline, because its your choice, but you can also do anything else you desire. Summoner can't. Why? Because of limited pod space and hardpoints.

No, summoner can't because of more than just podspace and hardpoint count. hitboxes, harpdoint locations, agility, less armor. Those make it not as good on the front line. So stop trying to make it a front line mech, when it can be an excellent flanker.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Why? Can I have an argument for your claim please?

As I stated multiple times before, and now in this post.

Endo+FF does not fix the Summoner's problems relating to hitboxes, armor, or hardpoint locations. Not to mention that making a second Timberwolf means you've failed at your objective of making the summoner viable, because we might as well just use the Timberwolf.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Why? Can I have an argument for your claim please? The timberwolf is already pretty nimble. To make a real difference, the summoner must have light-specs in terms of speed and mobility, which is not only impossible to do, but would also would look stupid.

No, it would move about as fast as the Dragon, and not really "impossible to do" we've already bumped it's speed up with a small quirk. It can use a buff there, a small one, and it will be set.

As a flanker it will be moving faster, better, and handle terrain better. With agility quirks it will be able to perform hit and run attacks better, it will be able to turn better, and handle better. This will allow it to stick with flanking lances, and provide a lot of firepower that they usually lack.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Which is essentially a call to overquirk this thing. You would need insane Quirks not get it into similar heights as the Timberwolf.

No, no need to over-quirk this thing. (though I'd be curious to know what you define as over-quirking). A few small quirks is not the same as overquirking it to insane levels. For example: a simple ballistic range +10% quirk would be good. If you want, we can make it specific, so it's no general quirks, just specific weapon quirks, like: UAC 20 jam chance -35% (clan mechs have a general UAC jam chance -33% quirk, buff the one for the summoner if you are restricting it to the 20)

These are not insane quirks, they're barely decent, and they can help a lot.

Agility quirks on the other hand should get a decent boost. Like a 20% increase on all accel, decel, twist, and turn parameters.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

I can put that loadout into an Ebon Jaguar. With better heat efficiency, smaller profile and more ammo. Both have no JJ. What is the point of that Gargoyle again?

The Gargoyle is in it's own weight class. Last I checked the EBJ isn't an assault. Not to mention that the GAR is still tankier, and more nimble.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Sorry, you lost me there. The difference between the 350 and 375 is very small and ultra-short range weapons are the opposite of "artillery". You mean "big guns" I assume? For that you need pod space, which the summoner does not have.

Yes, as single AC/20 with 4 tons of ammo and something like 5 medium pulse lasers sounds nice. Put in a lot of DHS to have it run cool, have your JJ and speed and be a flanker. That would fit the image of what you descibe... with the little problem that the Summoner misses about 12-14 tons of pos space to do that.

With one UAC20 and 4 med-pulse lasers its already full. It needs another 2 tons for the fifth, +4 tons for the UAC/20 ammo and around +6 (better 8) tons for additional doube heat sinks.

Yeah, no. Stick to MLs, SLs or SPLs.

You still have 5 tons free after the UAC 20 or G-R. The lasers are back up weaponry to being with.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Which is good as it save PGI quite some work.

That's not actually good. I for one, want the Thor II.

This is of course, before we factor in that your changes eliminate any difference between clan and IS mechs, and screw the balance even more. My fix is not going to cause any of these negative side effects. So in terms of saving PGI work, mine still wins out.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Every mech with enough pod space tries to be a Timberwolf these days. Its the meta.

That's not a good thing.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Oh, the lore argument... I though we talk about the gameplay here? Not? Okay, nevermind. Lets run all stock mechs then.


But.. but... lore! Stock mechs...

You really enjoy strawman arguments, don't you? I even mentioned in an earlier post that I'm not for running stock mechs.

However, this is a BT game, and we like to keep some semblance of the lore there.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Which is bad, right? So we need to give the close-to-timberwolf mech some soft Quirks to make it competetive and we are done. Way to go endo-steel to get to the first part!

If you want to completely invalidate one of the two, yes. If you understand nothing of my posts, try to understand this: Don't try to make the Summoner into a second Timberwolf. You'll still lose, and at best, you'll invalidate one of the two mechs. Which is still bad.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Claim =1
Argument = 0.


I claim that it will be better with more hardpoints, because you have more hardpoints, like a firestarter with 6 energy hardpoints is better than a firestarter with 1 energy hardpoint.

Claim =1
Argument = 0

I claim it will be better because you get more pod space, which can be used to fill the additional hardpoints with more weapons or better weapons that have more punch.

logic and foresight = 1

Short term thinking and no regard for balance = 0


See, I can make silly statements like that. Funny enough, mine seems to be more accurate here.

I've already explained ad-nauseam why this doesn't fix it's other problems, and at best makes it a lame TBR, at worst, it invalidates one of the two chassis.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Why not? Argument?

These past few posts have been the argument. It's ineffective, and won't actually make the Summoner viable, it wrecks balance, causes a lot of problems in IS vs. Clan balance. Will more than likely invalidate one of the two mechs (TBR, and SMN)

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Oh, and I have already elaborated the "wound" - the lack of pod space.

Yeah, no. That's the bullet hole you're treating, you're not taking the bullet out, if we want to keep using the metaphor.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

But the Ebon Jag and the Timber play in one league because of... the same pod space, despite have 10 tons of tonnage difference. While the summoner being bad between those two does lack one thing when comparing them: Yes: Pod space. (and harpoints)

If you actually read this post, then you will, by now, hopefully understand that pod space, won't fix the Summoner. Making it into another TBR is the wrong move, and the wrong way to do any kind of balance, since it will invalidate one or the other.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 21 June 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

On this note, I'll end this... In my opinion, its pod space (and hardpoints), because the mechs with the most pod space in the game ARE the meta mechs. The mechs with the least pod space are the least used ones. Break this argument with a sane, elaborated and counter-argument that does not include fuzzy stuff and I'll continue, but at this point, out viewpoints are so different that I do not see a common base to argue about.

Different mechs fit different roles. Mechs like the Summoner, and Gargoyle are much better used in mobile strike teams, while mechs like the DWF are absolutely the worst at it. using the wrong mech for the wrong role has been the no/1 problem with many mechs in this game, and with most pilots. So people who don't know how to build a mech right, or employ the proper tactics to use it right are at fault. Not the mech.

Enhance what the Summoner can do better than others, and more people will use it in that role. Think of it like herding cats if you will, but that will help it infinitely more than making it a weaker Timberwolf, and borking balance on a much larger scale.

Not to mention that this has the side effect of encouraging more role warfare. While your suggestions at best, will keep us in a deathball mentality. Look at the big picture when you try to come up with suggestions for "balance", and see how they break it, or improve it.

Simply put, yours are guaranteed to break balance.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Sorry dude, I said I'll end this discussion until you can break the argument of why the mechs with more pod space are meta and the ones with less not.

Thing is: You can't, because its math. More pod space = more power. Thats how this game is designed. If that is a good design is another topic.

[IraqiWalker]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 22 June 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Sorry dude, I said I'll end this discussion until you can break the argument of why the mechs with more pod space are meta and the ones with less not.

Thing is: You can't, because its math. More pod space = more power. Thats how this game is designed. If that is a good design is another topic.

EDIT: Had some other stuff written here first. No need to bother with that.

It's difficult for me to understand how you don't see improved utility making up for less than max firepower.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 22 June 2015 - 05:11 PM.