41 replies to this topic

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Life is not fair then you die?

[mekabuser]

Krivvan, on 16 October 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

People, scouting is not the same thing as spotting. Scouting has nothing to do with LRMs. Nothing to do with TAG. Nothing to do with capping. Nothing to do with staying relatively still and keeping a mech targeted. Scouting can be very important, and becomes absolutely vital in organized games. Your team is unable to commit to a decision until it knows exactly what each element of the opposing team is doing. Acting rashly without knowledge of the enemy's movements leads to being capped. Now, Lights make the best scouts because they scout the quickest allowing the team to be able to make a decision quicker than if another mech had done it. Lights are also the only class that can reasonably go off on their own. This is because they will usually always be able to escape any trouble. Lights in MWO do not exist for only scouting. They have several roles that they must switch between in each game:

• Scouting: They start each game with the scouting role and do scouting later if any element of the opposing team is missing.
• Fast Response: When your team has made a mistake and requires a fast response, only Lights can usually make it there in time. Most of the time this is the need to defend a base cap, but sometimes you need to help out someone on your team in combat.
• Combat: Lights can be extraordinarily deadly in combat, but generally require that a fight has already started in order to be of use. Once they are in a situation where they can lose the attention of an enemy and constantly hit back, they can rack up damage, kills, and assists comparable to Heavies and Assaults.
• Skirmishing/Strafing: A variation of the combat role, they act as a sort of weaker jump sniper when they have nothing better to do during a standoff.
• Assassinating: A very important role is taking down opponents that are weakened and attempting to flee and/or otherwise survive. You want enemy mechs (unless weaponless) to be taken down ASAP. This can mean taking a risk behind enemy lines to put a final blow on an enemy, or getting behind an enemy trying to hide its back in order to take it down. This can also mean taking down the rare isolated Heavy/Assault if the situation allows for it.
• Capping: This should be obvious, but mindless capping right off the bat isn't the right way to go about it. Capping should be done as an opening to your team making an offensive push, as a way to achieve victory when outnumbered (the heavier mechs have a holding action until you finish capping), lure enemy lights back to the base, and etc.
• Spotting: I generally hate lights being used for spotting, since I think that is a complete waste of their abilities and leaves them far too vulnerable to snipers, but some people consider lights to be meant for spotting with TAG and etc.
• Light hunting: Lights are generally decent at hunting other lights. Taking down other lights usually means your lights are free to do any of the above roles without as much trouble

Role warfare is alive and well, it just isn't contrived and given explicit "skills." It depends on the specific mech, but Heavies tend to be specialized damage dealers that can't take as much punishment as Assaults. Assaults tend to be the solid mass of a team. Mediums have admittedly the weakest place, but they ideally screen for enemy lights, and otherwise protect the heavier mechs. They are somewhat recently starting to be used more as flexible elements that can break off and assist lights whenever they need heavier firepower but also be able to remain with the bulk of the team and contribute meaningfully. Mediums do not out-fight Lights. Mediums do not out-fight Heavies/Assaults. Mediums can however join with both Lights and Heavies/Assaults in their fights against others. Lights cannot carry out combat with equal numbers against good heavier mechs and expect to win. They are force multipliers. They cannot exist without the heavier bulk of the team that they revolve around. Heavies and Assaults cannot be confident in decisions without information from lights, and they cannot be offensive without Lights to prevent the enemy from taking opportunities such as ending the game with a cap. I'd much prefer the roles to be organic as they are rather than forced. It's a lot more fun figuring out your place on a team and what your unique inherent advantages can accomplish than it is to play random games with random people with outright obvious "class abilities" for you to use. If you think there are no roles in the game then you are choosing to believe that there are no roles because there wasn't a clear railroaded outline for you to follow. There definitely is a scouting role. Whether you can do something to encourage that in pug games, however, is a different matter. Side note: This is really just a pet peeve of mine, but calling Lights scouts is extremely misleading and gives the impression that lights are only meant for scouting.

truth

[bloodnor]

yep managed to be the last man in the match this morning and we won on points. and rewards were pathetic

[Joseph Mallan]

Krivvan, on 16 October 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Well considering so many people think that sitting still spotting for LRMs is the same thing as scouting...

Forward Observer The new name in scouting.

[CypherHalo]

Yeah, when I first heard about role warfare, I thought it would be great. Now, I'm not so sure it is really working out. It leads to a coordinated team taking out a PUG team any time, every time. It simply makes the game frustrating to play. Maybe they should think about implementing a system where slots on a team have to be filled. So, for example, you could go, each team needs 3 lights, 3 mediums, 3 heavies, 3 assaults, something along those lines. Personally, I still think they should have a game mode with respawns and that would help make more matches competitive and less of these "my team was totally steamrolled" experiences, which is pretty much most of my game time when playing MWO.

[Zyllos]

Artgathan, on 16 October 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

What if we made radar range dependent on tonnage? The lighter the mech the longer the radar range.

We could even go a step further and do the inverse: heavier mechs can be detected from further away than lighter mechs. (IE: if I'm staring at a Locust and an Atlas standing shoulder to shoulder, depending on the range I might be able to get a radar hit off the Atlas but not the Locust).

This would go a long ways in helping to define roles.

I wouldn't so much pin it on tonnage, but on what the mech is defined to do. But in do this, you also need hardpoint size limits because then players will just play a mech with a better sensor range because they can still fit PPCs in Medium Laser locations.

You would also need to redefine what ECM is suppose to do (which is sorely needed anyways) so that SSRMs and LRMs can still provide a benefit, even in a field of ECM.

[Silent]

What role warfare

[Lykaon]

Rhent, on 15 October 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

There is no scouting role now. Why? Piranha lazy as heck OR they don't have the coding resources to implement game changes now.

It wouldn't be that hard to make some light only mods that would increase LRM range OR speed OR damage when the light uses TAG. Also make it where Lights that are TAG'ing gets a larger share of the XP and the bonus damage they are doing due to their mod gets applied to the Light mech.

If they implement anything to increase the capping bonus it will just increase cap warrior and no one wants that.

Seems you are confusing scouting with spotting.

Scouting is locating enemy positions and composition and reporting that intel.
TAG/BAP/sensor range mod./dat speed mod./target retain mod.are all useful tools for scouting.

Spotting is retaining contact with a desired target to direct LRM fire onto the target and to confirm effects of incoming fire to the target.
TAG/target retention mod./360 target mod. are useful tools for spotting.

[stjobe]

Lykaon, on 16 October 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Scouting is locating enemy positions and composition and reporting that intel.
TAG/BAP/sensor range mod./dat speed mod./target retain mod.are all useful tools for scouting.

Reward: Nothing.

Lykaon, on 16 October 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Spotting is retaining contact with a desired target to direct LRM fire onto the target and to confirm effects of incoming fire to the target.
TAG/target retention mod./360 target mod. are useful tools for spotting.

Reward: 25 XP, 1,100 CB if you keep the lock until the missiles hit, once per target per team-mate.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The only"Role" is mech v mech warfare in all its varieties, plus capping which can be done by any weight class.

[Krivvan]

Just because roles aren't rewarded doesn't mean that the roles don't exist. Personally I don't really care about the specific c-bill rewards of each game, the only important thing is whether it was a win or loss.

Giving each weight class specific "role" bonuses is a terrible idea. It forces the weight class into roles rather than letting the specific build of a mech have a role.

Not all lights are suitable for the same roles. I described a typical light's jobs but something like the 2xERLL Raven is going to have very different roles from a 5xML Jenner.

What there should be are weight class independent rewards. Being the first to target a specific enemy should have a decent reward. That alone would have people actually scout in pug games.

Edited by Krivvan, 16 October 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Shadey99]

CypherHalo, on 16 October 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Personally, I still think they should have a game mode with respawns and that would help make more matches competitive and less of these "my team was totally steamrolled" experiences, which is pretty much most of my game time when playing MWO.

While they have shied away from 'respawns', they have talked about a a 'dropship' mode where you would be able to choose any 4 readied mechs to take out and when 1 is lost you can take a new one out... Until you have no more. Though this has 2 problems: longer games (way longer) and splitting XP rewards between mechs/variants used. Games liek War Thunder already do this btw...

[Rhent]

Lykaon, on 16 October 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Seems you are confusing scouting with spotting.

Scouting is locating enemy positions and composition and reporting that intel.
TAG/BAP/sensor range mod./dat speed mod./target retain mod.are all useful tools for scouting.

Spotting is retaining contact with a desired target to direct LRM fire onto the target and to confirm effects of incoming fire to the target.
TAG/target retention mod./360 target mod. are useful tools for spotting.

You can't have Scouting in the game. We have a working C3 system now that everyone has access to by default. ECM can interfere with the C3 system and TAG can allow a mech to act as a scout + spotter in that limited scenario.

[OneEyed Jack]

Shadey99, on 16 October 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

While they have shied away from 'respawns', they have talked about a a 'dropship' mode where you would be able to choose any 4 readied mechs to take out and when 1 is lost you can take a new one out... Until you have no more. Though this has 2 problems: longer games (way longer) and splitting XP rewards between mechs/variants used. Games liek War Thunder already do this btw...

They scratched that idea some time ago. More recently they've mentioned being able to take 4 mechs (I'd assume your ready list) and picking from them once you know where you're going, but not jumping in a new one when you lose one.

Rhent, on 16 October 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

You can't have Scouting in the game. We have a working C3 system now that everyone has access to by default. ECM can interfere with the C3 system and TAG can allow a mech to act as a scout + spotter in that limited scenario.

No. You obviously have no idea what BT C³ is. BT has spotting that has nothing to do with using C³. MWO also has spotting, and it has nothing in common with C³.

[Nryrony]

Why do people keep mentioning "Scouting" as a role, especially since most of them mean by that a spotter for LRM's.

Since we have no other Indirect fire weapons and LRM boats are very well capable of firing their missiles without spotting (or use a TAG anyway), why even go down this road?

In a different game I would say, the "scout" has orbital fire-support and its dmg counts towards him. But this is Battletech and we are in a FPS game, nobody wants to just point at a target and do nothing. Its pointless and boring.

That "roles" are more like rpg "classes", with floating boarders, but in general it should look like this:

Light = Rogue
Medium = Ranger
Heavy = Mage
Assault = Tank

Depending on the chassis and load-out one might bend the roles a bit but a medium for example should never be able to "tank" better then an Atlas.

The class example is only a rough pov, one certainly could argue what the difference between a "mage" and a "hunter" is and what they should be capable of etc...

Edited by Nryrony, 17 October 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Krivvan]

Nryrony, on 17 October 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Why do people keep mentioning "Scouting" as a role, especially since most of them mean by that a spotter for LRM's.

Scouting does exist, but I suppose you could describe it more as a task that is best done by Lights than a role that defines Lights. The scouting is also actually just scouting, as in determining enemy positions and nothing else.

Edited by Krivvan, 17 October 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nryrony, on 17 October 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Why do people keep mentioning "Scouting" as a role, especially since most of them mean by that a spotter for LRM's.

Since we have no other Indirect fire weapons and LRM boats are very well capable of firing their missiles without spotting (or use a TAG anyway), why even go down this road?

In a different game I would say, the "scout" has orbital fire-support and its dmg counts towards him. But this is Battletech and we are in a FPS game, nobody wants to just point at a target and do nothing. Its pointless and boring.

That "roles" are more like rpg "classes", with floating boarders, but in general it should look like this:

Light = Rogue
Medium = Mage
Heavy = Ranger
Assault = Tank

FTFY

A Mage can throw damage but cant take a hit.

Krivvan, on 17 October 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Scouting does exist, but I suppose you could describe it more as a task that is best done by Lights than a role that defines Lights. The scouting is also actually just scouting, as in determining enemy positions and nothing else.

Scouting happens when you have Comms. The Scout doesn't get XP but he does get the gratitude of his team mates.

[Shadey99]

OneEyed Jack, on 17 October 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

They scratched that idea some time ago. More recently they've mentioned being able to take 4 mechs (I'd assume your ready list) and picking from them once you know where you're going, but not jumping in a new one when you lose one.

Really? I recall hearing about the whole dropship thing again in one of those NGNG podcasts a bit ago (a month maybe?), though in context it was a discussion on the new planetary defense game mode that is part of CW...

[Nryrony]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 October 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

FTFY

A Mage can throw damage but cant take a hit.

I think all you read was this:

Nryrony, on 17 October 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Light = Rogue
Medium = Mage
Heavy = Ranger
Assault = Tank

And bather defently not to read this...

Nryrony, on 17 October 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

The class example is only a rough pov, one certainly could argue what the difference between a "mage" and a "hunter" is and what they should be capable of etc...

Anyways, here we go again:

This is not Battletech this is Mechwarrior Online, this means we don't have cotrol over infantry, tanks, dropships, battlecrusers (in Orbit), Aircraft, artillery or multiple mechs.

The reason for this is because it is not a strategy game, like the TT is. But it is a real time fps about mechs shooting mechs in team-fights.

And since we can only control one mech per person, they need to have at least a rough balance. If this is not give, there won't be a rational reason to play an inferior mech.

To avoid such a system and make everyone useful, a class/role system makes sense.

This was just a rough example, don't take it too literally...

Nryrony, on 17 October 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Light = Rogue
Medium = Mage
Heavy = Ranger
Assault = Tank

However, I think a rogue is a fitting description for the role a light could for-fill. Like a rogue, they are fast, don't deal much dmg in direct combat, but have the ability to doge and back-stab.

Note that armor does not and should not equal survive-ability, same goes for firepower and the ability to kill your enemy.

- In short, if you don't hit you don't deal dmg, therefor armor wouldn't be a factor.
- The point where you hit can be more important then the actual dmg you deal.

If we improve the "roles" we already have and change them eventually into a balanced class based system, we would have a very nice solution that is fair for every one.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 October 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

Scouting happens when you have Comms. The Scout doesn't get XP but he does get the gratitude of his team mates.

In a PUG FPS world do you really think people would even care for that gratitude? I just think you have a very optimistic view here.

[Adridos]

Nryrony, on 17 October 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

This was just a rough example, don't take it too literally...

However, I think a rogue is a fitting description for the role a light could for-fill. Like a rogue, they are fast, don't deal much dmg in direct combat, but have the ability to doge and back-stab.

Rogue gets stealth, though. Light is forced to rely on bugs in the system. The day shots start hitting properly is the day everyone can sell their lights. Their fighting ability is completely inexistent without the opposition not being able to reliably fire back, scouting has no purpose and the only thing that remains is capping points, which in itself is there only for two purposes. To make people angry, ruin matches and expand the C-Bill grind, as neither side gets anything more than a pocket change when a cap victory happens, but the time invested into the match is usually in the biggest metrics.