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Silence Jin Mang, on 16 October 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:
These are good number sir, ty for them, they have helped my research a lot 
. Anyways, on to the reasoning why these numbers aren't entirely true. None of these mechs are up to canon scales, we all know this and have come to accept this, BUT the problem comes in when you do the ratio numbers for tons. Going by a estimated scale compared to the buildings in River City (which I assume to be architecturally done in meters for each floor) an atlas is about 18 meters tall. Its a tall mech, its a 100 ton mech, and it was quote,
"A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally".
. Anyways, on to the reasoning why these numbers aren't entirely true. None of these mechs are up to canon scales, we all know this and have come to accept this, BUT the problem comes in when you do the ratio numbers for tons. Going by a estimated scale compared to the buildings in River City (which I assume to be architecturally done in meters for each floor) an atlas is about 18 meters tall. Its a tall mech, its a 100 ton mech, and it was quote,"A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally".
I'm not at home so I can't really see a comparison to River City, although I'm shaky in using that as a base point because we don't know what size those buildings are scaled too. But you 18 meters is about 4.5 stories in your normal high rise so I will work with it. Sadly, although the quote is lore-tacular, it serves no purpose in this exercise.
Silence Jin Mang, on 16 October 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:
the math doesn't add up for a 45% loss of weight. And that's apparent without me doing the math
OK, I think were getting off on the wrong foot here. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, by not doing the math you are doing yourself a disservice.
Silence Jin Mang, on 16 October 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:
But I`ll go into deeper explanation of height to explain this logic. So if by your ratio`s an atlas that is 100 tons about 8 meters wide and 18 tall, is the ratio we use as a standard, because it seems the most canonical to size. Then take a shadow hawk, which is about 16 meters tall and 6 meters wide and weighs 55 tons, the math doesn't add up for a 45% loss of weight. And that's apparent without me doing the math, but I will just to prove a point. If the final dimension on a atlas is about 5 meters thick, they the atlas has 648 meters cubed of space to fill in the mech. Now take the Shadow hawk with a cube size of 480 (5 meters think as well) and alone in the cube ratio`s the mech should theoretically weigh 74 tons (rounding down from 74.074). I realize this is all assuming that the buildings are meter sound and were built by a human and not an alien, but even if we use comparative ratios as in 1.8 stories of that building is about the size of an atlas, the numbers come out the same as the shadow hawk covers about 1.6 stories. But still the mech should due to its size and atlas comparison weigh 74 tons.
Since the example you give only has two dimensions, I'll use a new shape that also uses two variable dimensions. A Cylinder.
So in case anyone wants to follow along here is the equation :
Volume = Pie x Radius x 2 x Height
So the Volume of the Atlas is = 3.14 x 4 meters (half the 8 meters mentioned) x 2 x 18 meter (The Height Mentioned)
Which comes out to about ~905 meters cubed.
So for a 55 Ton mech, we would want a volume of 905 x 0.55 which equals ~498 meters cubed.
So were looking for something where 498 = 3.14 x Radius x 2 x Height
Since you liked the height of 16 meters, I'll use that. Which as the radius come to 3.15 meters.
Now this is awesome, your guess of 16 meters tall and 6 meters wide as being way to big and "But still the mech should due to its size and atlas comparison weigh 74 tons." Because funny thing is, a Mech standing 16 meters and 3 meters wide would be to small for 55 tons, it would need to be 0.15 meters wider for being 16 meters in height, and no where near 74 tons.
Silence Jin Mang, on 16 October 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:
And don't say its that tall and only weighs 55 tons and that the weight is just more spread out. Its a 2550 era mech, almost 300 hundred years before the atlas, so if it`s that big at that time, and it was already hard to manage the insane sizes of 85 tonners at around the same height as 16 meters, then how the hell does a 55 ton mech do it? I mean logically speaking, if a 85 ton stalker had major stress problems from being so tall and so heavy, they how does the shadow hawk not have those ever mention in canon if it really is that tall? Its 5.5 tons with only the structure of the mech. The stalker with 8.5. The shadow hawk is taller by about a meter, but my question is how a mech that has only 64% of the structure of a stalker not suffer from stress if the stalker does and its shorter? Nothing makes logical sense by the the shadow hawk being so large. But if you decrease it`s size to say around 14.5 x 6 x 4 you get a more reasonable 348 which is about 54 tons compared to the atlas in size to weight ratio. And its only a slightly decreased size, with only the height and thickness reduced, not its wideness. My point is settled.
This isn't really a math problem, this is again a lore issue your having. I'm not an expert, but I know that the succession wars actually caused a degrade in in technology. So building a Shadow Hawk to be that tall should have been easier 300 years back and not harder as your arguing. So if anything the Shadow Hawk would have been better made than the Stalker which had issues as you were saying. Which from the sound of the lore would make perfect sense that the worse designed Stalker came hundreds of years later than the Shadow Hawk.
Silence Jin Mang, on 16 October 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:
Also by your math all these mechs are sized by a square ratio which makes no sense as I don't think any mech would fit in a square and fit the dimensions of them perfectly. No mech is 12 meters tall by 12 meters thick, by 12 meters wide.
All math done by logical assumption that logical humans built these buildings, and that the height of these stories are generally accurate.
All math done by logical assumption that logical humans built these buildings, and that the height of these stories are generally accurate.
You miss read that section, I stated the square was a simple example of how mass can go down a staggering amount without a huge change in physical size. It was meant to be very simple as the thousands of polygons used for the Mechs in the game would be far to much for a simple thread like this. It was not supposed to be an actual representation of a Mech, just a simple object that the audience of this forum could easily grasp.
I hope this helped clear up at least a little of what I was talking about. And I'm also glad that you made thought out arguments instead of just flaming. I'll keep track of this thread for a bit, but I don't think I'll keep writing out examples since the two I've now placed should give a good ground work for any discussions. Also I'll see you all online !!
