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What Does Everything Do?


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#1 colsan

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:47 AM

As a long-time Mechwarrior and Battletech fan, this game is just incredibly difficult to figure out. Every time I think I have a handle on how they have changed things, I build a new mech the way I think is right, and something else jumps out and ruins my new loadout. I wanted to talk about a few things that seem to throw everything off:

1. What all affects missiles?

-ECM: In the old games, ECM interefered with communications and sensors, period, and then only inside its range; it did not affect missile locks or reduce sensor range. In this game, the device apparently manages to remotely hack into enemy mechs and selectively disable weapons systems, not to mention acting as both a stealth device and ECM (and nevermind that those two functions are pretty much fundamentally the opposites of each other). IMHO, this is the absolute worst aspect of this game; it is simply not fun.

-TAG: Canonically, TAG was just a designating laser a spotter would use, primarily to allow targeting of enemies outside of the missile-carriers sensor range. In MWO, it (sort of) counters ECM, but only if you are NOT in range; this is one of the systems that ECM apparently hacks into your mech to disable.

-Artemis: This system used to just increase missile accuracy. I'm not sure what it does in MWO; I have it on my missile boat, but other than taking up weight and space, I haven't noticed much of a difference. I would take it off, but I don't want to waste the c-bills. ECM countered this in the old games, but since there is nothing in this game to cancel...?

-BAP: This one is really throwing me for a loop; it used to detect shut down mech and/or mechs hiding behind buildings, etc. Now, I don't know what it does. It is supposed to counter enemy ECM (again, exactly opposite of every previous example), but it doesn't. It is supposed to reduce lock-on times, but I don't notice any difference.

-NARC: What is the point of this?! I have never seen as useless an implementation of a game mechanic in my life, and I used to play Everquest.

-Something else?: I don't know what, but it seems like ~10% of the time, even with no enemy ECM around, I am simply not allowed to lock-on to close, light mechs. I hold the reticule over them, get the circle, but it just stays yellow and never locks on.


2. Ballistics

-Vector addition: I often notice when I fire a ballistic weapon while moving that it noticeably curves as it approaches the target. This is, of course, natural, but the extent to which it happens seems a little... off. If I am running sideways respective to my target at 50KPH and fire and AC/2 at a range of 1KM, the AC/2 round should land ~7 meters to the side of where I was aiming, and I don't think it does. It seems like it carries a little motion, but generally it hits somewhere else on the mech I was shooting at, not 20 feet off to the side.

-Recoil: If this isn't self-obvious, please go watch a video of a battleship firing its guns. Basically, firing an AC/20 or other heavy gun should noticeably affect the mech firing it, if not so much as the mech it hits, at least enough to throw off its aim, and even ac/2s should kick some.

-Gauss rifles: I understand that they felt that they had to nerf the low-heat, long-range, high damage ballistic weapon, but it was already balanced by ammo, weight, and size, so all they have done is annoy a bunch of people. "Charge up?" Come off it, we have superconducting capacitors today that can hold a charge for centuries.


3. Heat.

I know, I know, this is canonical, but if PGI is going to throw out parts of all the old games, why not throw out parts that didn't make any sense to begin with?

Just to break it down for people who are unfamiliar with the problem, you should not heat up significantly more or less on any map currently in the game. A difference of 200° is insufficient to change the rate of cooling of a heat sink at high temperature. The rate is determined by the efficiency value of the system, which is defined as:

nu = 1- Tc/Th

Tc = Cold reservoir
Th - Hot reservoir

Of course, these values have to be in Kelvin, so for a block of graphite at high temperature (what we would use for a heatsink today), the values for hot and cold planets would be:

(Frozen City) nu = 1 - Tc/Th = 1 - 185/5000 = 0.963
(Terra Therma) nu = 1 - Tc/Th = 1 - 370/5000 = 0.926

So you should lose heat about 5% slower on Mordor than on Hoth.


Now, if we were to have a map on an airless moon, that would significantly slow down the rate of cooling, with some differences between light and shadow. Another option would be underwater maps, which would of course increase cooling.


4. What's the deal with lights?


I don't know what the problem is, here, but I find light mechs to be much more difficult to kill than heavies, and even some assaults. Some of it, obviously, is that it is harder to hit a fast-moving target, but I've dropped 6 AC/20 rounds in the same spot on a stationary Raven, then had him turn around and kill me.

When I mention it in game, I get spammed with messages about internet speed, but my ping is good (60-70ms usually) and don't have any problems in any other game.




This could be a good game, but they're going to have to fix some of this stuff before it gets out of beta.

Edited by colsan, 16 October 2013 - 05:50 AM.


#2 Vodrin Thales

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:00 AM

A few answers for you. BAP counters one enemy ECM that is within I think 150m from you. It does nothing to ECM farther away. BAP + Tag on an LRM mech allows you to reliably target ECM screened mechs at most ranges (as long as two ECM lights don't come hunting for you).

There have been a lot of complaints about ECM getting the null signature function as well and breaking missile locks. This was primarily done because streak SRM's and to a lesser extent LRM's were a bit overly strong when ECM was introduced. Many including myself feel it was a bad fix and ECM is overpowered, even with all the counters to it out there now.

And the lock on problem you are seeing is a bug. Reporting it would be good because it needs to get fixed. I have reported it a couple of times myself.

Your light mech problem is unusual for someone with stable ping, but I have heard others complain. I have a steady 80-90 ping and rarely have problems with hit registration. It does happen, but maybe 5% or less of my shots. Others have complained that it happens much more regularly.

The gauss change was not so much because gauss was OP by itself, but that the combination of gauss + PPC was a problem. The charge up makes it very difficult to use to achieve 35 point pinpoint shots, and this seems to be what PGI was looking to eliminate.

#3 Syllogy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:13 AM

Q: What affects missiles?
A: ECM prevents the target from being locked on outside of 180m. It also prevents enemies within 180m from getting locks. It can be defeated at long range with a TAG laser and UAVs. It can be defeated within 160m with BAP.

Artemis only works when firing on a target when you have LOS.

NARC embeds itself into a target for a certain length of time or until the target has sustained a certain amount of damage. It allows the target to be highlighted even when no teammates have LOS.

TAG, Artemis, and NARC each make LRM groupings tighter. They all stack with each other.

LRM's do not have deal any damage inside of 180m.

Q: Ballistics (Vector Addition)
A: Ballistics do not inherit velocity and they do not "curve" to the target based on the speed of the mech that fired it and the round does not slow down over the course of their flight, however there is some slight bullet drop. The curve you are describing is an illusion.

Q: Ballistics (Recoil)
A: This is something they are looking to add, but it's a low priority item.

Q: Ballistics (Gauss Rifle)
A: The charge time limit has actually been a pretty good feature for many people. Pilots can now "cook off" the shot and preserve ammunition for shots that are more likely to land instead of wasting them on snapshots.

Q: Heat
A: It works. It might not be the best solution, but for the most part, it works.

Q: Lights?
A: This is partly due to netcode problems. In the example you give, the server doesn't think that the Raven is actually where your system shows it is. It's a demon of Server-side hit detection (Which is much harder to hack and much easier to detect than Client-side hit detection) and it's being worked on. They've made progress in leaps and bounds in the last 6 months.

#4 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:52 AM

As for your last part - the game is live, no longer in Beta.

#5 Vodrin Thales

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:57 AM

Hit detection on lights was also far better for me last night than I have seen in a long while.

#6 General Taskeen

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:13 PM

Here are more straight up, the truth answers:

ECM: A fantasy item, and probably the worst balanced ECM in any Mech Warrior game. In this game, if someone is targeting something, another Mech on their team can target that Mech and shoot missiles (even if the other Mech has no LOS). That's not how it worked in previous Mech Warrior games. The only way you could fire LRMs was by - > Line of Sight, and/or some other player using support tools like TAG or NARC in order to help you out. What it does in MWO - Its an on/off switch for missile systems, turning off an entire class of weapons and invalidating Stock Mechs in the process.

TAG: Sort of does what its supposed to - However, ECM can not counter TAG at all in TT. However, since indirect fire can happen without TAG, PGI simply made it so TAG makes missiles more "accurate" - again instead of addressing the core issues.

NARC: Useless - Missing about 75% of its actual features. Completely neutered compared to previous Mech Warrior games - likely due to the core issues again. Again, since indirect fire can happen without NARC, it was simply made in this game to give more accuracy - again instead of addressing core issues.

BAP: Does detect shut down Mechs, but unfortunately can not detect units behind buildings. Was given the ability as "do i want to use SSRMs" tool, if yes, "then mount BAP," if not, "then don't use." BAP was not mounted on Mechs in TT for the purpose of firing missiles - again instead of addressing core issues, this is what we got.

HEAT: Only works for DHS, in 95% circumstances unless you are mounting literally 41 SHS with all skills elited..

This is what they do in MWO (which never happened in any Mech Warrior game, and thus did not have these issues)

Mech A - 10SHS less overall heat threshold - has to wait 5 seconds or more to fire something as minimalist as a Medium Laser - all stock builds in MWO, with SHS can barely cope with the way heat-sinks are programmed in general - unlike a game such as Mech Warrior 3.
Mech B - More DHS - the "heat cap" gets exponentially larger, so you can fire for much, much longer than an SHS Mech. Both Mechs do not have the same threshold.

http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/ - <- you can use this link to see the disparity for yourself

#7 colsan

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for the answers; I'm awarding 3 brownie points to General Taskeen for the best answer.

There were a few I had some further questions about though:

View PostSyllogy, on 16 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Q: Ballistics (Vector Addition)
A: Ballistics do not inherit velocity and they do not "curve" to the target based on the speed of the mech that fired it and the round does not slow down over the course of their flight, however there is some slight bullet drop. The curve you are describing is an illusion.


OK, hold up, because I accounted for the fact that my motion would cause an apparent curve to the projectile; however, it still causes the shot to hit to one side of where I was aiming, depending on my direction of travel.

Of course, this could be caused by...


View PostSyllogy, on 16 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Q: Lights?
A: This is partly due to netcode problems. In the example you give, the server doesn't think that the Raven is actually where your system shows it is. It's a demon of Server-side hit detection (Which is much harder to hack and much easier to detect than Client-side hit detection) and it's being worked on. They've made progress in leaps and bounds in the last 6 months.


OK, so this also answers the "can't lock on to close fast lights even with BAP/they do not have ECM" issue, however this just created on big, giant, lump of a question:


View PostSyllogy, on 16 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

It's a demon of Server-side hit detection (Which is much harder to hack and much easier to detect than Client-side hit detection) and it's being worked on. They've made progress in leaps and bounds in the last 6 months.



OK, look, I'll buy that server-side hit detection causes lag, but the idea that it is harder to hack smells like something that came out of a bull (how many other games use client-side with minimal problems?), and to suggest that it would be harder to detect is just silly; how, when the system that would need to detect the intrustion, has, by definition, been compromised? Especially since detection in a client-side regime amounts to reading the emails from players complaining about their entire team getting head-shot from across the map?

Sorry, I spent way to long in I.T. security :D

Anyway, that answers the question, even if it does just beg the question, "Why not switch to client-side hit detection?"

View PostNik Van Rhijn, on 16 October 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

As for your last part - the game is live, no longer in Beta.


...is this a joke or not?

Edit: OK, sorry, the gaming site I go to just changed MWO's listing from Beta to Final a few days ago.


View PostGeneral Taskeen, on 16 October 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Here are more straight up, the truth answers:

ECM: A fantasy item, and probably the worst balanced ECM in any Mech Warrior game. In this game, if someone is targeting something, another Mech on their team can target that Mech and shoot missiles (even if the other Mech has no LOS). That's not how it worked in previous Mech Warrior games. The only way you could fire LRMs was by - > Line of Sight, and/or some other player using support tools like TAG or NARC in order to help you out. What it does in MWO - Its an on/off switch for missile systems, turning off an entire class of weapons and invalidating Stock Mechs in the process.


How do they not understand that it is just killing this game? You're having fun, then all of a sudden, 6 assault mechs are 200m away, and you can't even shoot back because they close the range faster than you can lock on. I would rather not have the system in the game at all than have it like this.


View PostGeneral Taskeen, on 16 October 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

TAG: Sort of does what its supposed to - However, ECM can not counter TAG at all in TT. However, since indirect fire can happen without TAG, PGI simply made it so TAG makes missiles more "accurate" - again instead of addressing the core issues.

NARC: Useless - Missing about 75% of its actual features. Completely neutered compared to previous Mech Warrior games - likely due to the core issues again. Again, since indirect fire can happen without NARC, it was simply made in this game to give more accuracy - again instead of addressing core issues.

BAP: Does detect shut down Mechs, but unfortunately can not detect units behind buildings. Was given the ability as "do i want to use SSRMs" tool, if yes, "then mount BAP," if not, "then don't use." BAP was not mounted on Mechs in TT for the purpose of firing missiles - again instead of addressing core issues, this is what we got.


This is all flowing from the change to ECM, right? So why don't they just change ECM back to what it did in every other game?



View PostGeneral Taskeen, on 16 October 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

HEAT: Only works for DHS, in 95% circumstances unless you are mounting literally 41 SHS with all skills elited..

This is what they do in MWO (which never happened in any Mech Warrior game, and thus did not have these issues)

Mech A - 10SHS less overall heat threshold - has to wait 5 seconds or more to fire something as minimalist as a Medium Laser - all stock builds in MWO, with SHS can barely cope with the way heat-sinks are programmed in general - unlike a game such as Mech Warrior 3.
Mech B - More DHS - the "heat cap" gets exponentially larger, so you can fire for much, much longer than an SHS Mech. Both Mechs do not have the same threshold.



Wow, I did not even realize that; my complaint was the way it works differently on different worlds, but that is even worse.

#8 Stormyblade

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:43 AM

I'll second what General Taskeen said. His reply may be considered a little snarky or sarcastic to some, but there's a lot of frustration and sad truth behind every comment. Many of us have been begging, pleading, and crying to PGI to fix some of these basic issues, but it seems most of these have not been fixed yet. I'll chime with the frustration over ECM -- if I have a Stalker-3H with LRMs and just *one* Cicada or Raven walks by me or any of the targets I can't fire my missiles. Well, unless they are < 750m and I can see them using LOS and apply my TAG laser. You learn to roll with the changes and deal with the PGI "rules" but it can be rather frustrating. However, to be fair, I completely understand that firing LRM missiles at < 180 meters results in no damage -- that one actually makes sense.

#9 Roadbeer

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:03 AM

View Postcolsan, on 16 October 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:


How do they not understand that it is just killing this game? You're having fun, then all of a sudden, 6 assault mechs are 200m away, and you can't even shoot back because they close the range faster than you can lock on. I would rather not have the system in the game at all than have it like this.


It's not as big of a deal as some people like to make it out to be.

There are two basic types who use ECM, Those who are thinking "tactically" (rarely found in PUG queues outside of a premade 4 man) and those who need a security binki. Of the former in the 12 man queues, it's rarely overwhelming, maybe a couple mechs in a drop, as those units who bring overwhelming ECM aren't very good at the game, and they're likely to get out maneuvered.

I'm an LRM guy and ECM doesn't bother me at all. Finding a target that isn't under the cloud is rarely a problem, and when you find a 'cluster' of mechs hiding under ECM, all you need to do is fire at them, lock or not, they're so close to each other, you're going to hit something. Also, if you're paying attention, you know where the ECM is mounted on each variant that carries it, and you (or your team) should make removing it a priority. The DDC for example, has it on it's left torso. focus there and you'll quickly remove ECM from the field, and a large majority of the time, they'll have an XL in it and it goes boom anyway.

The rest are on squishy lights, annoying, but not a problem.

In short, it's not a big deal unless you make it one.





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