60 replies to this topic

[Noosemane]

Krivvan, on 16 October 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

The current reward for scouting is not immediately losing to a base cap or being caught in a really bad position and flanked.

If it needs more, just add the reward for being the first to target an enemy and assigning it a letter designation.

This doesn't work for players in a game where progression is imperative. People want a reason a reason to play a role. Point rewards are the easiest and often best way to achieve that goal. If Battlefield did anything well it was adding incentive to engage in combat with things like suppression assists, savior kills, resupply points, and so on. As a result it improves depth of gameplay. Engaging the players by rewarding them with extra c-bills and exp for performing helpful roles is a good route to go.

[DaZur]

Krivvan, on 16 October 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Spotting is not Scouting.

Anyways, I don't believe anything should be done. Scouting is already a vital part of organized matches.

You can increase rewards for being the first to target an enemy mech (when it assigns them the A,B,C, etc. designations). That would incentivize scouting in pug games. Speed and ECM already are making the less combat-worthy lights more suitable for scouting and/or other roles. Except the Locust, that thing is useless. At the very least give it more module slots.

Under no circumstances should "role" rewards be given to specific mech classes.

Really?

So what incentification should we forward to lights fulfilling their battlefield roles... Pixie kisses and Unicorn farts?

If we are to ask all light mechs to fulfill their class roles of scouting / information gathering, harassment and interdiction... How exactly should they be compensated since it would all but mitigate their access to kills & damage and by proxy any meaningful endgame net profit?

Like in real life, "It's your job"... Is not incentification enough. Ya gotta give them something in return for their efforts.

Edited by DaZur, 16 October 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[Krivvan]

DaZur, on 16 October 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Like in real life, "It's your job"... Is not incentification enough. Ya gotta give them something in return for their efforts.

Again, I'm looking at this from the point of view or organized matches and/or tournament games. The reward for everyone on a team is winning, not c-bills or XP. Assault and Heavy pilots similarly don't complain when they get a kill stolen, that's something that a light is meant to do.

And like I said, rewards should be given for things such as scouting (being the first to target and designate an enemy mech). I just don't believe that those rewards should be tied to classes. Let the fact that lights are the best for scouting alone make them more likely to receive that reward, don't force them to be the only class that can get it.

Lights aren't supposed to spend entire games scouting. That is their initial role and one that may pop up now and then. The other half of the roles are combat roles. That's why you see so many above average to good Light pilots racking up damage, assists, and kills comparable to the Heavies and Assaults of a team. They usually need a numbers advantage and/or preexisting combat to do it though.

Edited by Krivvan, 16 October 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Lostdragon]

I think the majority of rewards (75% at least) should be tied to winning. The rest can come from individual metrics like damage, spotting, kills, assists, etc. If the biggest reward is for the win, though, that incentivizes doing things that help secure a win but are not necessarily easy to measure like drawing enemies away from the fight by standing on their base for a few seconds then running away or relaying information about a flanking maneuver.

There are a lot of things people do in all types of mechs that help the team, but the current reward system focuses so much on damage and kills that it drives people to play selfishly instead of trying to do what is needed to win. If you change that I think you will see a good bit of role warfare begin to emerge on its own.

[espritjaeger]

First of all, give C-Bill bonuses for each "tick" of capping you did (This way, you are not having a massive c-bill penalty by focusing on capping points instead of fighting).

How about add some special cap points that are a considerable distance away from everything else, and allow those to give special bonuses, and add C-Bill bonuses for capping these points..

1) Jamming Station: Decrease radar range for enemy team.
2) Signal Booster: Increase radar range for friendly team.
3) ComSat Station: Briefly pings all enemy mechs once every X amount of time.
4) Control Station: Increases the speed at which your team caps.
5) CySec Station: Decreases the speed at which the enemy team caps.
6) Security Tower: Automatically detects any mechs standing within any capture points.

Edited by espritjaeger, 16 October 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[The Department of Aggroculture]

espritjaeger, on 16 October 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

First of all, give C-Bill bonuses for each "tick" of capping you did (This way, you are not having a massive c-bill penalty by focusing on capping points instead of fighting).

How about add some special cap points that are a considerable distance away from everything else, and allow those to give special bonuses, and add C-Bill bonuses for capping these points..

1) Jamming Station: Decrease radar range for enemy team.
2) Signal Booster: Increase radar range for friendly team.
3) ComSat Station: Briefly pings all enemy mechs once every X amount of time.
4) Control Station: Increases the speed at which your team caps.
5) CySec Station: Decreases the speed at which the enemy team caps.
6) Security Tower: Automatically detects any mechs standing within any capture points.

I would like to see something like this to a degree. Let's start with conquest, each Nav point it a set one of those stations. This gives fast mechs a priority, and the faster brawlers (mediums) a something to go for. The only issue I see is the possibility of a streamroll once someone has a couple point controlled,

Edited by The Department of Aggroculture, 16 October 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[espritjaeger]

The Department of Aggroculture, on 16 October 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

I would like to see something like this to a degree. Let's start with conquest, each Nav point it a set one of those stations. This gives fast mechs a priority, and the faster brawlers (mediums) a something to go for. The only issue I see is the possibility of a streamroll once someone has a couple point controlled,

The steamroll effect would be a good incentive to use Mediums. Lights can duke it out at one or two points, and hold until Mediums come with heavier firepower. The Heavies and Assaults roll up next with their armor and destruction to finish everything.

[Voivode]

A reward for sighting enemies that breaks down in two ways:

1) An initial reward for sighting the enemy that is a set amount.

2) A gradual reward that grows as you provide targeting to other mechs. The longer the time you are providing target info and the larger the number of mechs at once you do this for, the greater the reward.

Other than that, a cash reward for shooting a mech whilst it is capping a base. A reward for capping a base (higher for light mechs). And maybe a reward for your AMS shooting missiles inbound for a teammate.

Edited by Voivode, 16 October 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Tauman Malthus]

Voivode, on 16 October 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

A reward for sighting enemies that breaks down in two ways:

1) An initial reward for sighting the enemy that is a set amount.

2) A gradual reward that grows as you provide targeting to other mechs. The longer the time you are providing target info and the larger the number of mechs at once you do this for, the greater the reward.

Other than that, a cash reward for shooting a mech whilst it is capping a base. A reward for capping a base (higher for light mechs). And maybe a reward for your AMS shooting missiles inbound for a teammate.

Agreed..... rewards should be skill based in the sense that the longer you target or spot for teammates, the more mechs you discover first the more the reward, maybe even multipliers to the reward to make it exponential.

In addition scouting should offer some unique features such as maybe an auto map marker where mechs are discovered that last for a minute or 2, something like that would be very useful to the team and would make light pilots actually want to scout.

Also what about specialized scouting modules, only certain chassis could carry.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

ECM makes scouts obsolete.
They cannot target enemy mechs if any enemy has ECM.
Allied mechs can roll in as a group under the cover of ECM eliminating the need for advanced scouting, and evading enemy scouting.

Frankly the only light mechs I see are brawlers, lights just hang out near the main group trying to steal kills, I mean assist. Unless there are 4 or more, then they transform into soccer hoolagans and run around drinking sour milk and buggering old ladies.

[espritjaeger]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 16 October 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

ECM makes scouts obsolete.
They cannot target enemy mechs if any enemy has ECM.
Allied mechs can roll in as a group under the cover of ECM eliminating the need for advanced scouting, and evading enemy scouting.

Frankly the only light mechs I see are brawlers, lights just hang out near the main group trying to steal kills, I mean assist. Unless there are 4 or more, then they transform into soccer hoolagans and run around drinking sour milk and buggering old ladies.

You only see brawlers, because that's the only way to earn c-bills.

Tauman Malthus, on 16 October 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Agreed..... rewards should be skill based in the sense that the longer you target or spot for teammates, the more mechs you discover first the more the reward, maybe even multipliers to the reward to make it exponential.

In addition scouting should offer some unique features such as maybe an auto map marker where mechs are discovered that last for a minute or 2, something like that would be very useful to the team and would make light pilots actually want to scout.

Also what about specialized scouting modules, only certain chassis could carry.

So you want lights to just stand on the tallest hill for the whole game? A scouting force does more than just "scouting". They can be responsible for taking out crucial targets and setting the stage for the rest of the battle.

First problem is that you do not get points for doing anything not related to damaging the enemy, other than spotting for someone else to damage the enemy. Even then, spotting relies on having LRM's in your team, which may not always be present. This creates a limited scenario for spotting.

Second problem is that "scouting" in MWO is limited to the first couple of contacts with the enemy force. Once you have located the bulk of their forces, that's it for scouting.

(I'm going to shamelessly reiterate my previous post)

First of all, give C-Bill bonuses for each "tick" of capping you did (This way, you are not having a massive c-bill penalty by focusing on capping points instead of fighting).

Second, add some special cap points that are a considerable distance away from everything else, and allow those to give special bonuses, and add C-Bill bonuses for capping these points. (someone suggested adding these bonuses to current cap points)

1) Jamming Station: Decrease radar range for enemy team.
2) Signal Booster: Increase radar range for friendly team.
3) ComSat Station: Briefly pings all enemy mechs once every X amount of time.
4) Control Station: Increases the speed at which your team caps.
5) CySec Station: Decreases the speed at which the enemy team caps.
6) Security Tower: Automatically detects any mechs standing within any capture points.

[Destoroyah]

If they wanted to help with scout roles I think one of the things that needs to be done is lower radar range for most meachs except for those that are scouts. they could have it in 3 tiers.
1: Standard Radar = 500m/most heavy and assault mechs and some mediums
2: Enhanced Radar = 750m/most mediums and lights and some heavies
3: Advanced Radar = 1000m/ excl7usive to mechs with advanced sensor equipment like the ravens and locusts maybe a select few mediums.
One of the benefits of the better radars could be the early warning for missles so a standard radar mech won't get warning outside 500m unless they got sensor modules or a spotter is spotting the missle shooter. Another benfit is it would allow spotter mechs to more easily do their spotting job without having to always worry about being picked off at range by bigger mechs.

I agree there needs to be a improved reward stucture for spotting. Spotting assist should be changed to a damage dealt to target(not just missles) the spotting mech is spotting but the shooter can't see. so the shooter gets normal damage rewards and the spotter gets damage done to spotted rewards and lighter mechs get a multiplier applied to them so mediums would generate like 2x the amount and lights would build 3x the amount. TAG and NARC would work similarly except they calculate a seperate tag/narc reward so if your spotting a target and tagging it the spotter gets a double whammy.
Capture rewards should be implimented so the more ticks you contribute the more c-bill/xp you get and naturally lighter mechs such as lights and most mediums would get multipiers applied to them.
Another reward system they can add would be a ECM Piercer reward that work similar to the spotting assist where all damage done to the unmasked mech generates a damage reward for the mech unmasking the target and if the unmasker is spotting it to boot even better for them.

Espritjaeger has brought up something I think this game has really needed for a long time. something I'd like to dub Battlefield Assets. Or basically things you can capture that'll make a impact on the battlefield. Sensor towers alone would be a huge boon as they can be good targets for your lights to capture early so you can help protect your flanks and get early warning of possible base caps and so on.

Edited by Destoroyah, 16 October 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Monky]

Three simple solutions;

What do scouters do? They ID and locate enemy mechs without getting blown to ****. They do not fight head on. Allow light mechs to have enhanced sensor range by default and perhaps faster target acquisition times.

In terms of performance, on lights more hardpoints allows better possibilities. 5 small lasers on a locust is laughable, any Jenner could wipe the floor with one, but since the Locust is tonnage restricted and not viable at anything less than max speed, perhaps it can have an increase amount of hardpoints intended for light weight weaponry (like small lasers etc) to give it a unique combat role. It WILL be pressed into combat with the current game dynamics, arguing you should only scout is a non starter.

In terms of overall match balance, tonnage limits are about the only realistic fix, and would be effective with above fixes in mind (aka it is not a fix-all). Tonnage limits would mean a light mech like a locust could still allow counter-capping and distraction/harassing while raising the effective tonnage your team has for more combat focused mechs.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Wolfways, on 16 October 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Make LRM's only able to indirect fire on targets with a TAG or NARC on them, as in: http://mwomercs.com/...lrms-revisited/
Make TAG only visible in thermal view.

You really do have a one track mind don't you...all I ever see you post on is LRM this and LRM that...lol.

[Wolfways]

xMEPHISTOx, on 16 October 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

You really do have a one track mind don't you...all I ever see you post on is LRM this and LRM that...lol.

I've posted about many things. Maybe you're only reading the LRM threads

[xMEPHISTOx]

Wolfways, on 16 October 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

I've posted about many things. Maybe you're only reading the LRM threads

Indeed...touche.

[Wispsy]

Allow light mechs to heal other mechs.

[Eddrick]

The reward is really all the incentive needed for someone to fill the scouting role. The trick is: How to do that without it being done by someone that is also filling a combat role?

[RandomLurker]

Step 1: Balance (nerf) ECM properly.
Step 2: Add more game modes, so scouting has value.
Step 3: Add in-game VOIP so pugs can communicate and the true complexity of the game becomes visible to those who aren't lucky enough to have done 12 mans.

That'll be a good start.

[Steelgrave]

Lefty Lucy, on 16 October 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

They *could have* and *should have* used the pilot lab and module system to create role warfare where the mechlab and construction systems have always failed, both in battletech and mechwarrior. They could have made it so only certain mech classes can have certain module slots. However, they have not, and it's kind of too late. Imagine the uproar if they said "everyone's xp resets to zero so we can implement role warfare." Sure, those of us who are hard core about game balance would love it. However, the vast majority of players would simply see PGI taking something away from them, something that they "earned."

Agreed.