12 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

I would like to see collisions return similar to how they were (in actually knocking mechs down, but without the dragon bowling advantage) but where it costs both sides dearly. Issue before was that damage didn't really happen much, but the knockdown was the damning part.

<soap box>
I think collisions should cause severe damage and consequences on a sliding scale.
Bump = a grinding noise for annoyance and nothing else.
Walking collision (combined 54 kph) up to 2.5pts damage (each) to two locations that collided (first) Ex: Jenner CT, atlas leg.
(30 kph .5dmg, 36kph 1dmg, 42kph 1.5dmg, 48kph 2dmg, 54kph 2.5damage)
"Jogging" collision (combined 84 kph) up to 5 points of damage to the two contact locations.
(60kph 3dmg, 66kph 3.5 dmg, 72kph 4dmg, 78kph 4.5dmg, 84kph 5dmg.)
Running collision (combined 114kph) up to 10 points of damage divided among 2 components each, not by connection necessarily, but by proximity/extremity. (Legs connect? Leg takes half, Arm of same side takes half.. or Side torso if arm is gone.) Staggered mechs. (maintains standing and regains posture over the course of 1-2 seconds, not moving until posture regained.)
(90kph 6dmg, 96 kph 7dmg, 102kph 8dmg, 108kph 9dmg, 114kph 10dmg)
Sprinting collision (combined 144kph) up to 20 points of damage divided amongst 2 locations each, as with running collision. Staggered mechs- 3-4 seconds.
(120kph 12dmg, 126kph 14dmg, 132kph 16dmg, 138kph 18dmg, 144kph 20dmg)
Ruinous collision (combined 174kph) up to 40 points of damage divided amongst 3 locations. (Leg, arm, side torso OR Leg(S) and Side Torso.. or maybe even Leg(13.3 dmg), Side Torso (13.3), CT (13.3)
Knocked down.
(150kph 24dmg, 156kph 28dmg, 162kph 32dmg, 168kph 36dmg, 174kph 40dmg)
Catastrophic collision (combined 204kph) up to 80 points of damage divided amongst 3 locations, as in Ruinous collisions.
Also Knocked down.
(180kph 48dmg, 186kph 56dmg, 192kph 64dmg, 198kph 72dmg, 204kph 80dmg)
Cataclysmic collision (combined 234kph) up to 160 points of damage divided amongst the entire mech (except head)
Also Knocked down.
(210kph 96dmg, 216kph 112dmg, 222kph 128dmg, 228kph 144dmg, 234kph 160dmg)
Apocalyptic collision (combined 264kph) 160dmg capped out. Knocked down, Pilots blackout for 5 seconds. (screen goes black)
Trollololol collision (combined 300kph) 160 dmg capped out. Knocked down. Pilots blackout for 10 seconds.

Jumpjets:
Any mech not touching the ground when hit for a combined 40 kph is Knocked down. Only the airborne mech(s)
This also reduces the damage to both mechs by 50%. (This can be an "oh ****" maneuver by a surprised JJ mech to mitigate damage.)

Collision speeds would be determined by the speed of both parties, and the percentage of the speed be delivered on the collision plane. (Two mechs that bump each other going the same direction at 150kph a piece are really only delivering about 20-30kph or so.. it would be determined by angle.)

Also, glancing collisions would be just that- glancing collisions. Bump/grind noise for annoyance, but no effect.

I think that's useful for some risk/reward play. Even weaponless mechs can do more than just cap.



If collisions happen at over 150 combined kph, both mechs are knocked down even if one is in the air damage is still halved though.
Angle of attack from above (DFA) would knock both mechs over if the combined speed is 40kph.

</soapbox>

(Oh, and knockdowns would be turned on at the same time as Airstrike/Artillery- to avoid silliness as mechs leave the base.)

Edited by Livewyr, 16 October 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Livewyr]

Silly me.. didn't make some outlandish claim, troll anyone, or be completely obtuse.. and I didn't post it in Gameplay Balance..

ergo- no conversation.

[mikromancer]

I like it!

seems perfectly reasonable and has a lack of easily obtainable trollolloll...

think the only thing i'd add is a slider on who takes most damage depending on weight(would effect which mech gets knocked down also.... ie. a jenner vs an atlas would be somewhat like a honda civic vs a mesa...mesa wouldnt really notice much... maybe have it so instead of 50/50 damage, the jenner would take up to 70% of the damage of the collision.

in the older mechwarrior games I liked the feature whereupon if you fired shitloads of weapons at an enemy they would fall over from the force...used to like running dual LBX cannons and making all the things fall over in one shot. I really think they should add that back in.

my 2 cents

[Livewyr]

I hear you mikro, and thought about that (in regards to realism) however that can be abused to troll:

Like a fast Dragon (60 tons) navigating solely for the purpose of hitting smaller mechs to cause more damage to them than he receives. For this reason, it needs to be equal damage so it isn't a mechanic that can be used effectively to troll.

Sure, you can charge the mech in your dragon.. and you'll probably hurt it grievously, but it won't be pretty for you either.

I want intentional collisions to be a last resort or a finishing move.

[RandomLurker]

Collision damage is fine. Even a good idea.

Knockdowns should not exist, or should only exist after you have critical hits to your Gyro or Leg Actuators. A knockdown is a hard CC effect, and that kind of thing doesn't belong in first person games.

[Livewyr]

RandomLurker, on 16 October 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Collision damage is fine. Even a good idea.

Knockdowns should not exist, or should only exist after you have critical hits to your Gyro or Leg Actuators. A knockdown is a hard CC effect, and that kind of thing doesn't belong in first person games.

The minimum speed mine would require to knock the mechs down is 150 combined kph.

Basically two mechs running precisely at each other (direct head-on with no diversion of angles) at 75 kph. If either of the mechs deviates even a little bit- no knockdown.

It would be hard to be knocked down if you are paying attention even a little bit- and it would hurt both mechs heavily (24 damage each, minimum.)


Knock downs shouldn't be there for a stun lock, completely agreed. They should be there to prevent someone from maxing their mechs speed with witless abandon. (Lookin at you: ping-pong spiders..)

[Corralis]

I don't think collisions actually need to cause damage (beyond the real small paint scratching stuff). Back when collisions were in the game, light mech pilots (and Dragon pilots) had to be really skilled to be effective and had to be able to understand the terrain and control the speed of their mech to avoid a collision. If they got knocked down then it was pretty much over for them anyway (and that's why you don't need the actual collision to cause damage) as they would be slaughtered by the Atlas they just ran into (one of the best ways to kill a light mech back then). Let's be real honest, it made no sense for a Jenner to be able to knock down an Atlas (which happened all too often).
Anyway I agree that collisions should be in the game if brought in properly, but I would suggest that your tonnage should determine if your mech gets knocked down. So a 100 ton assault mech would need another 100 ton, or two 50+ ton, mech/s to be able to knock it down. I also think that weapons like the AC/20 or 60+ missiles or duel Gauss should be able to knock down a mech if its hit in the right location and with enough force to unbalance the gyro. You could also bring in more expensive (and heavier) gyro's to give added knockdown protection. It would certainly add another level of much needed tactics to MWO.

[Corralis]

RandomLurker, on 16 October 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Collision damage is fine. Even a good idea.

Knockdowns should not exist, or should only exist after you have critical hits to your Gyro or Leg Actuators. A knockdown is a hard CC effect, and that kind of thing doesn't belong in first person games.

No I think knockdown's should exist and more over I think you need to learn that this isn't a standard first person shooter, it's a simulation and therefore you need to add in things that make the game believable (i.e the laws of physics) and two huge mech's colliding against each other is sure as hell going to unbalance of or both of them.

[Livewyr]

Corralis- The knock-down is the damning part for whoever gets knocked down. Back in CBT, which you were there for, Collisions didn't do damage, they just knocked people over.. which made it less painful to troll someone.. you could do it indefinitely.

Haven't you seen the goons vs. Paul video? That's what happens when you only have knockdowns and no damage.

[Corralis]

Livewyr, on 16 October 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Corralis- The knock-down is the damning part for whoever gets knocked down. Back in CBT, which you were there for, Collisions didn't do damage, they just knocked people over.. which made it less painful to troll someone.. you could do it indefinitely.

Haven't you seen the goons vs. Paul video? That's what happens when you only have knockdowns and no damage.

Yea I have seen it, I have been a victim to it and I have caused it to many other people. But back then it was implemented totally wrong. If done properly, I believe that they can be brought back to the game in a meaningful way. If you had collision damage then all you would get is a team of 4 locusts running straight into an Atlas and killing (or severely crippling) him to which the Atlas pilot would have no answer to. Essentially you would be adding the ability to suicide your 20 ton mech to take out the enemy's 100 ton mech and you know it will be done that way.
There is a way it could work though using your method above combined with my method. You could use your numbers divided by the weight difference of the two colliding mech's. So for example your 20 ton locust hit's my 100 ton Atlas at 170 KPH causing 20 damage to two sections of my mech but then seeing as my mech is 5 times the weight of your mech, you divide the damage caused by 5 to the Atlas. The smaller mech would take full damage and get knocked down if it survives though. Yes it would require light mech's to be piloted with skill like they used to be but would mean they have to be aware of their surroundings once again.

[Livewyr]

I think you misunderstand- I will point where within the quote in bold.

Corralis, on 16 October 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Yea I have seen it, I have been a victim to it and I have caused it to many other people. But back then it was implemented totally wrong. If done properly, I believe that they can be brought back to the game in a meaningful way. If you had collision damage then all you would get is a team of 4 locusts running straight into an Atlas and killing (or severely crippling) him to which the Atlas pilot would have no answer to.Essentially you would be adding the ability to suicide your 20 ton mech to take out the enemy's 100 ton mech and you know it will be done that way. (Well, yes, I suppose if 4 players, 1/3 of a team, want to commit suicide to destroy AN atlas, they'd be able to do that. One Assault mech for 4 light mechs? I'd take it. Sure the game ended early for the Atlas.. but it also ended early for 4 locusts.. Not an efficient/effective troll.)
There is a way it could work though using your method above combined with my method. You could use your numbers divided by the weight difference of the two colliding mech's. So for example your 20 ton locust hit's my 100 ton Atlas at 170 KPH causing 20 damage to two sections of my mech but then seeing as my mech is 5 times the weight of your mech, you divide the damage caused by 5 to the Atlas. The smaller mech would take full damage and get knocked down if it survives though. Yes it would require light mech's to be piloted with skill like they used to be but would mean they have to be aware of their surroundings once again.

I think you're missing the point: Giving the heavier mech an advantage in damage leads to 400XL AWSVTR/BLRs obliterating mediums and heavies with ramming attacks because the heavier mechs take reduced damage.

I understand my method isn't the most realistic conversion of mass to energy, but it's necessary to keep large engine battering ram assaults from trolling players the way Dragons did in CBT.

[Corralis]

Livewyr, on 16 October 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

I think you misunderstand- I will point where within the quote in bold.



I think you're missing the point: Giving the heavier mech an advantage in damage leads to 400XL AWSVTR/BLRs obliterating mediums and heavies with ramming attacks because the heavier mechs take reduced damage.

I understand my method isn't the most realistic conversion of mass to energy, but it's necessary to keep large engine battering ram assaults from trolling players the way Dragons did in CBT.

Well I'll agree my solution doesn't seem perfect either but having all mech's take the same damage regardless of their weight and the weight of the mech that hits them seem a bit wrong to me. Collisions should never be made to be a viable way of causing damage to mech's. They should be a penalty for a piloting error and as such the small fast movers should bear the brunt of that penalty as they already have the huge advantage of their speed (do you think we would see as many spiders on the field if running into a mech would cause them to almost certainly leg themselves)?

[Gremlich Johns]

RandomLurker, on 16 October 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Collision damage is fine. Even a good idea.

Knockdowns should not exist, or should only exist after you have critical hits to your Gyro or Leg Actuators.

Bovine Feces!

If a light gets hit by any sort of Alpha, it should be on the ground. within 100m, I shoot your light mech with a 35 pt damage alpha with anything ballistic in it, like an AC20, you should be down.