70 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

@ op. pug only cues wouldn't solve anything with the playerbase size, skilled people will always make the newcomers cry as MM works by making an average team balance so it saves time trying to look for 24 people all at the same elo level. premades appear on both sides and get wiped out as badly by better premades. didn't you say in your ghost heat vid you can't nerf skill? same goes for a pug only cue. there will always be QQ i can't win it's **** game whiners.

Mudhutwarrior, on 17 October 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Just did 10 matches. All stomps and honestly it wasnt that the other team had good players. I did well above 400 dmg in each match though lost each one. It has to do with you fire on one and get return fire from four. Last match I gaussed and atlas at 900m turned and ran. Within seconds I had four lites on me. I got two but it took me out of play and my team was wiped out before i died. Of course the usual in chat "You scrubs suck" and 'GG" came at the end.

I cant call for help or direct fire instantly by typing where I am twisting and turning in a fight. I have been playing since Jan and have mastered all assauts, heavys and a few meduims so its not experince and it sure isnt skill. Its exploits win in this game and everyone knows it. Whether they are honest with themselves or not. You cannot retain players under such conditions and the fanatics dont have the numbers to support it.

this is exactly the kinda report that makes people think PREMADES oga booga! it's not if you're spotted puggers chase you down for an easy kill, chassing squireel and pooping out soon makes you the squirel. oh and of course all focus fire happens from premades, pugs never follow anyone else to attack a loner frash for ******. and as i mentioned your team isn't always pugs you have premades too, how many complainers point out how many rolls they were with as well as being victim of? blobing up for focus fire and outnumbering is the main win condition and pugs can do that just as well as premades. it's a skill barrier many premades are poor to be beaten by better ones. so if you died you got beaten because the team premades or not were more organised and stuck together better than your team or you wondered off and got caught out like a loner/free kill. pugs have the same luck premades just up the chances of their blobing outnumbering by ensuring they backthemselves up. pugs can do that too but low skill players just don't. it's a skill thing not a premade thing.

now GH is a convoluted mess, it reminds me of ecm, it reminds me of 3rdPV or seismic or most things this game has. however ecm was brought in to counter ssrm homing CT broken weapons, that's now fixed {at last!} so maybe in months to come we'll see a tuning on ecm so Bap can get put right, you know to act like the bap that's been in BT and all previous MW games. i'm sure GH is the same place holder whilst tests are carried out to ensure 4ppc mechs don't just click twice kill once like they could at virtually any range. i thought the game had already tanked but it's still kicking {by the looks of these PP badges every where} so i reckon there's time yet. it's good the devs have brought themselves time after the terrible reviews and scandals articles previous. they really need it!

i understand your frustrations but you've been here longer you should know the speed in which the devs fix/break/fix things around here. give it 2 more years and several feature/grab deals later and this might be an acceptable game. PGI is learning everything from scratch, shame but true, so we have to wait. there's nothing more to do.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 17 October 2013 - 03:18 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Jake Hendricks, on 17 October 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

Not sure I agree with splitting the player base. As someone who only plays casually I PUG all the time, not sure I have the play time to commit to joining anyone. Plus if you and a single mate want to have a quick couple of games you are pushing them in with the organised teams. You could even be showing a completely new player how to play and they get matched against an experienced team - can't see that being fun.

However, with that I still think a PUG can do ok if they play even slightly organised. Quite often a PUG will indicate their builds at the start and can overrun the other team. I do agree they need better comms for them. Even something as simple as quick comms statements from single button pushes, if you run into a couple of mechs you don't have the chance to type anything until you or they are dead.

Heatwise I think it's ok. I've never been one for piling on large numbers of the same weapon just to snipe from the back of the map. Alpha striking should be less common that it is even now.

We still get snipers, we still get LRM boats and you might say everyone has the same build but personally I make my build around the style that suits me on each mech. Better now than everyone being twin PPC / gauss or 100 LRMs.

The whole idea of qick comm statements from a button push just adds in more completity premades dont have. The solution is voice on drop like all the other games have. PGI passed off resposnsibilty to do that and put it one the players. Its time they own up to it.
Dont know how many times you see WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW across the screen upon a pugs death ina firefight.
Its assinine to consider how long this has gone on. Its even more so the premade exploit warriors who come here to defend it.

[ssm]

Mack1, on 17 October 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

(...)

Remove the Ghost Heat Mechanic

Ghost Heat has ruined all Mechs that rely on energy weapons. Why should I play any Assault Mech now when I can do twice as much DPS in a Ilya or a Jaeger with 3 UAC-5 or 3 LB10? You never see PPC or Gauss (fire dely nerf) anymore due to the nerfs. I have 28 Mechs 7 of them premium but I only play the ballistic ones as they don't suffer from Ghost heat.

Ghost Heat is not even needed now due to the huge heat increases of energy based weapons. The battlefield is now full of pew pew builds as it's the only viable build, 2 LL, 4 ML and a few missiles and you wonder why games are boring! No snipers, no LRM boats, No big Assault laser boats to fear, just everyone pew pewing with their standard cookie build, how boring.

I have spent hundreds of pounds supporting this game as have many of my friends and all but 2 of them has told me they are never spending another penny on this game until they get rid of Ghost heat. Some are even preparing their accounts for sale by unlocking all variants and making them elite. Now if that is just within my own circle of friends it must also be going on right across MWO player base.

MWO is losing players (same names every other battle) and therefore losing money which means eventually the game will cease and that is a horrible thought. I want this game to succeed but pretty much everyone except those in denial can see it's heading into freefall.

(Nothing on PUG queue from me, don't have an opinion)


Ghost heat has not ruined mechs that rely on energy weapons. All energy weapons (except maybe ER PPC) are at least as effective as they were before. I see PPCs and lasers all the time, Gauss is mostly seen nowadays on specialised sniper builds (as it should be)

Ghost heat is still needed - You can't balance stock 4xER PPC Masakari or 12xER ML Nova by hardpoint restrictions or cone of fire.


They are still a lot of:

- Snipers (but not all of them use ER PPC/Gauss combination - some use light ballistics, some PPCs, some Gauss. Is it bad thing? Is it boring?)

- LRM boats (You still can two-shot everything short of Assault with 4xLRM15 Awesome, but now it'll cost you few seconds of shutdown. Again - is it bad thing?)

- Big Assault laser boats (Everybody's usind laser on Battletmasters nowadays, and my 4xLL/Streak Stalker is actually doing better because I now care about pacing shots and adjusting aim)


I'm sorry that:

- Your friends are leaving - but if thing like ghost heat forced them to leave instead of slightly adjusting their playstyle (to less cheese, in truth) I'm afraid they wouldn't be around much longer regardless.

- You spend hundreds of pounds on this game, and I hope you don't regret it


That you think game is losing players:

- Doesn't mean that it actually does

- Doen't mean that it does because Ghost Heat or no PUG queue.


Summary:

I can understand that you're sad that you don't like that previous meta (which you liked) got changed (by Ghost Heat & some other balancing decisions) to current one (which you don't like), but drawing serious conclusions from "I don't like this game right now, bring me back my month-old cheese NAOW!" is, at best, faulty.


Is Ghost Heat perfect mechanic? Is it balanced? Probably not.

Are there different solutions (MW3 Style heat scale)? Maybe there are.

But still, GH has done it's job, and game plays better now. People are actually using ballistics other than UAC/5 and AC/20, is it bad or boring?

Edited by ssm, 17 October 2013 - 03:30 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

GalaxyBluestar, on 17 October 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

@ op. pug only cues wouldn't solve anything with the playerbase size, skilled people will always make the newcomers cry as MM works by making an average team balance so it saves time trying to look for 24 people all at the same elo level. premades appear on both sides and get wiped out as badly by better premades. didn't you say in your ghost heat vid you can't nerf skill? same goes for a pug only cue. there will always be QQ i can't win it's **** game whiners.




this is exactly the kinda report that makes people think PREMADES oga booga! it's not if you're spotted puggers chase you down for an easy kill, chassing squireel and pooping out soon makes you the squirel. oh and of course all focus fire happens from premades, pugs never follow anyone else to attack a loner frash for ******. and as i mentioned your team isn't always pugs you have premades too, how many complainers point out how many rolls they were with as well as being victim of? blobing up for focus fire and outnumbering is the main win condition and pugs can do that just as well as premades. it's a skill barrier many premades are poor to be beaten by better ones. so if you died you got beaten because the team premades or not were more organised and stuck together better than your team or you wondered off and got caught out like a loner/free kill. pugs have the same luck premades just up the chances of their blobing outnumbering by ensuring they backthemselves up. pugs can do that too but low skill players just don't. it's a skill thing not a premade thing.

You make a lot of assumptions like i was caught alone etc. I wasn't the others with me were engaged themselves. Playing it off that four lites arrived right after my shot at the opening of the match is ridculous at best. All of us know what goes down when you fire on one premade and you get gang banged soon after.
You can play it down any way you can but anyone on the feld know the score and how it goes. They also know how the majority of premades revel in quick wanton destruction of the other team. Its rare you get a true fight these days and I love those matches when it happens. Its all a matter of how sick of waiting for them you get.
Waits for matches, failed to find matches and short teams are more regular and consitent. Thats another warning sign you guys want us to ignore. Well I contend its you killing the game not those of us trying to change things for the better. You want to hold on to your advantage without looking down the road. We see the bridge is washed out while you want to accelerate to our combined end. Think of keeping the game thriving rather than your individual experinece.

[Snowcrow]

Mack1, on 17 October 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

MWO is losing players

Actually, Bryan said on twitter just a couple of days ago that they had set a new record for concurrent players online.
And on the ngng interview he said that their numbers had been consistently growing.
The game is not dying at all. In fact, it's doing extremely well, according to Bryan.

Edited by Snowcrow, 17 October 2013 - 03:41 AM.

[Devin Takkar]

You know, Mudhutwarrior, that it's highly improbable that the premades are always on the enemy team and never in yours?

[Randalf Yorgen]

OP, Ghost heat... could use a small tweek but like ECM it is only a slight hinderance once you adapt to it.
Seperate Que,.... enough people have covered this in the replies already.

Now, what has really prompted me to post. YOU have introduced about 100 people but only 20 are still playing. YOU TOLD them how to build their mechs, YOU TOLD them how to set up their weapon groups, YOU TOLD them how to pilot, YOU TOLD them what to aim for......

Do YOU SEE what I'm pointing out? YOU TOLD them how to suck eggs, YOU TOOK any and all exploration that the game has to offer (at this time) away from them. They didn't get to say, "WoW I'm getting hammered and doing not so much damage" and then a week later "WoW I'm not the first to die and I'm not at the bottom of the damage list, I'm getting better, YAY ME" and then a few weeks/months after that "WoW just scored 500 Damage in a Jenner with SPL and SSRM's, killed 4 and assisted 6.... I'm really getting the hang of this, I like this game"

Be careful how much YOU are TELLING people how to play because it might just turn out that it is YOU who are turning off those who have left because they don't like feeling like they are just puppets playing someone elses game. People want to figure things out for themselves. Best thing you can do is give them a 5/10 min walk through, get them on TS with a relaxed group of players who will TALK to them and answer their questions while you go do seperate drops. Let them learn the game for themselves and at the end of the day you can sit back and have a beer with them (if they are old enough, if not then you left an important piece of information out of your original post) and crack a joke while talking about the FUN you both had in the game.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Devin Takkar, on 17 October 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

You know, Mudhutwarrior, that it's highly improbable that the premades are always on the enemy team and never in yours?

Never stated otherwise but it is bad then too. Either they dont communicate and do their own thing or send pugs to their death why they sit back. If you are in a stomp your scores still suffer because your lucky to get a shot in. Its generally bad either way for pugs.

As a general rule premades are out for themselves. How that helps team play is beyond me.

Edited by Mudhutwarrior, 17 October 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Mudhutwarrior, on 17 October 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

You make a lot of assumptions like i was caught alone etc. I wasn't the others with me were engaged themselves. Playing it off that four lites arrived right after my shot at the opening of the match is ridculous at best. All of us know what goes down when you fire on one premade and you get gang banged soon after.
You can play it down any way you can but anyone on the feld know the score and how it goes. They also know how the majority of premades revel in quick wanton destruction of the other team. Its rare you get a true fight these days and I love those matches when it happens. Its all a matter of how sick of waiting for them you get.
Waits for matches, failed to find matches and short teams are more regular and consitent. Thats another warning sign you guys want us to ignore. Well I contend its you killing the game not those of us trying to change things for the better. You want to hold on to your advantage without looking down the road. We see the bridge is washed out while you want to accelerate to our combined end. Think of keeping the game thriving rather than your individual experinece.

I drop with three friends all the time, please enlighten me, what happens when you fire on a Pre-made? We usually try to add as much to the battle as we can and support the rest fo the team. That means if we have ECM and the enemy has a lot of LRM's, then the ECM mech moves to a place where it can cover as many friendlies as it can while someone else is calling for a regroup at that spot. IF you have 4 lights on you as soon as you fired guess what, you stood up so you were seen, took 10-15 seconds to line up your shot, had Advanced Zoom turned on the entire time so you didn't see the lights coming and paid the price for it. As someone who enjoys playing lights if I see a lone mech (half a square or more from the rest of the enemy main body) I think to myself, it's straffing time and if I see that I have 2 or 3 other mechs following me I'll circle of death that mech for 10-12 seconds.... it usually takes that long for the enemy team to react anyways and that poor mech is now dead, or has no weapons left. Even on the smallest maps in this game it takes 15-20 seconds for a fast light to cross the map, assess the enemy force, decide on a plan of action and then follow that plan.

Do you say the same things when you fire a single shot and have 200 LRMs fired at you in responce, from the sounds of it you have that happen as well, or if you were playing real pre-mades you would have.

People need to stop caling 4 friends who are playing in whatever mech they grabbed with actual premades where the mechs have a specific load out, weight, speed and moduals in order to compliment each other to the highest level. Try going on the NGNG server and jump in with a semi serious 12 man pre-made. You'll see that there is a whole different game being played in MWO and that pug drops really aren't where it's at.

[C E Dwyer]

Windsaw, on 17 October 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

I have played this game since closed beta.
I have 20 mech bays and tested really a lot of loadouts, usually in the light to medium tonnage, but also some heavies.

Never in this whole time did I run into the ghost heat problem or have chosen a loadout that would have suffered ghost heat if it existed at that time.

I am not saying that ghost heat is not a problem.
It is a problem mostly because it is undocumented. Also, it was introduced to fix a problem that should have been fixt differently.
But I am saying that you extremely overemphasize this problem.

As I see it ghost heat is only a problem for cheesebuilds whose very existence would cause more people to leave this game than by people who get frustrated by ghost heat.

All in all there are about six to eight problems in MWO which have much more the potential to kill MWO.
Ghost heat is a problem, but only a minor one.

Heat scale is only a problem to boats, none of my builds except a 9 ml hunchie and my 3uac5 muromets are capable of suffering from Heat scale not even my battlemasters, and it doesn't effect whether I have a good game or a bad game.

I can't say it was the best way, but once this game was out closed beta, there was no way convergence was ever going to be used, you just have to look at how painfully slow developement of this game is to realise that, but it has crippled alot of cheese builds and for that it gets the thumbs up

I chose to not use viop systems, because I don't want to spend hours with headphones wrapped around my head, and with kids around I'm not going to risk an open speaker system, but I have to laugh at those that call using it an exploite, for bad performance, its not the be all and end all, being successful is just common sense and being aware of whats going on around you, looking at your map... and not half the team chasing two spiders...

Everquest raids were far more complex and difficult, and none used vioce coms, people knew what they had to do they all had jobs they all did them and they worked as a team, use the 60 seconds ready time to talk shop, instead of spamming push the RDY button will go along way.

A proper loby would be better

Edited by Cathy, 17 October 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[Rhaythe]

I'd rather they implement in-game voice comms instead of a PUG/Premade queue, but that's me.

[Mack1]

Mycrus, on 17 October 2013 - 02:43 AM, said:

Mak gimme a break... How many times did you "quit" already only to come back...

You even bought into pheonix...

Where in this post does it say I quit?

Also @SSM Read your post again, it's hilarious, I particularly like the bit about 4 x LRM 15 2 shotting Heavy Mechs

Its a sad day when I wipe the floor with Stalker 3F's in my Ilya or my Jaeger, but that is the reality of MWO ATM, energy + Missile builds overheat unless they are built with low DPS weapons.

Also last night my premade were doing about 300/500 DMG when we dropped in Assault class energy/missile builds, when we then dropped in Heavy Mechs running Ballistic/Energy builds this went up to 500/900 DMG. You have got to laugh at that mechanic, face it guys, the game is in a total mess where class now means nothing at all. At least before the Assaults were feared, now I just annihilate them.

Edited by Mack1, 17 October 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Roadbeer]

MWO is dying, ghost heat and evil premades?

/makes that nagging motion with his hand.

Required reading

Oh, and in regards to ghost heat... L2Build

Edited by Roadbeer, 17 October 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Conan Librarian]

Rushin Roulette, on 17 October 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

On the other hand.. how many times have you said in your Ts3 while spectating others (who are not on yoru TS3 team), that they are as thick as 2 short planks and cant play worth excrement? Just imagine how many complaints you will be getting if they could actually hear what you were saying (no matter if what you said was true or not). I know I do say that sort of thing in the heat of the match and I wouldnt really want them to hear that in retrospect.

That's why every (respectable) game with built-in voice chat has also an option to mute selected player.

It's simple as that.


BTW, I play Team Fortress 2 for a good couple of years (got it before way it went F2P, over 2000 hrs played), it has built-in voice chat and during that time I had to use the mute option only around 10-12 times. Half of those were people mic spamming some music (I just listen to own music when I play, 2 tunes interferring with each other annoys me), only half were people who actually were rude and annoying.

[Thunder Lips Express]

Original poster, if you have got so many people into the game and they complain about playing against groups of people, why not have your friends in a group themselves?

[Joseph Mallan]

Mack1, on 17 October 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Make a PUG only queue

I have introduced hundreds of people to MWO and only about 20 are still playing,

I stopped here. I have introduced thousands of people to CBT (I was a DemoRep an ran a tables at Cons). I doubt I made more than a couple dozen returning players. I was a GenCon 2 years in a row and the same faces were playing with few exceptions. We are a niche crowd.

[Joseph Mallan]

Devin Takkar, on 17 October 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

You know, Mudhutwarrior, that it's highly improbable that the premades are always on the enemy team and never in yours?

Mud strikes me of being someone that would complain because a group of guys practice together in a local hoops court. They are not cheating they are just better. They are the ones to beat, not to be shamed cause they got it together.

[WarHippy]

Snowcrow, on 17 October 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Actually, Bryan said on twitter just a couple of days ago that they had set a new record for concurrent players online.
And on the ngng interview he said that their numbers had been consistently growing.
The game is not dying at all. In fact, it's doing extremely well, according to Bryan.

Not that I am saying it is or isn't losing players, but given Bryan and the devs track record for blowing smoke I wouldn't exactly call that a good source for accurate information.

That being said I think the OPs idea for pugs is pretty short sighted, and would be harmful to the game. As for ghost heat I am not a fan in general, but if they intend to keep it they really need to adjust the numbers on some weapons. Only allowing 2 LL without penalty is pretty absurd, and needs to be moved to at least 3 or 4 at the most. The combination of different missile groups as well as the limit chosen for them is also off track. And why they don't just remove AC/2s from the ghost heat list is beyond me.

[Syllogy]

Mack1, on 17 October 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Make a PUG only queue [or this game will fail in 12 months]

Challenge: Still have a viable and fun game in 12 months without instituting a PUG only queue.

Challenge accepted.

[Bilbo]

If the lack of a pug only queue was going to kill the game, it would have died shortly after the ability to group was implemented. Since the game continues to grow, I'd say it isn't an issue.