338 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

Another weird thing, I've noticed about lights, is that they can avoid missles. Missles are not hitting them - missles are hitting the ground behind them. That means, that it is possible, that missles tracking system has some kind of delay while tracking lights' position, so missles are going to the point right behind the lights, not directly to them, and on some speed this allows lights to completely avoid missles.For example my CPLT-C4 has 4xLRM10. It's 44 total damage per lounch. Ok. Now we have some kind of LRM damage spread mechainc to avoid CT one-shoots. Some missles could even miss the target. But. It's still should be very noticable damage, as lights have only about 160-200 points of armor. 2-4 launchs should 100% kill them. But what are we seeing now? Firing LRMs to lights is almost worthless, cuz lights are avoiding 99% of damage.

P.S. Is anybody else experiencing forum freezing?

Edited by MrMadguy, 19 October 2013 - 12:34 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Homeless Bill, on 17 October 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

There's clearly not a lot of aiming skill in this video, but here's what I experience: http://www.twitch.tv..._bill/c/3100317

A few of those are clear misses, but a few of those should have registered some decent damage. At the end, it's hardly scratched. And then the Jenner melts like it always does.

I think that says it all. Is this a clear indicator that the Spider is messed up? No. PGI could argue that the hit-indicator is bugged (when the reticle turns red). But it's a clear sign that SOMETHING is bugged and that it is RELATED to the Spider.

Their "move along citizen" mentality on this is really spiteful.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

silly rabbits.... tricks are for pilots that dont pay attention...

The MM is set up to make sure you have roughly a 50/50 win loss rate. If there are not enough players available to even out the MM. The system will do one of 2 things depending on the side you are on.
A: make your shots miss more (and for less dps) then they should
B: Hit more (and for more dps) then they should....

Walla 50/50 win loss rate.

Its not about skill anymore. Its more about player retention. Like it or not. The founders pretty much lead PGI off the cliff.

But most of you who QQed the raven 3L into oblivion are sad now... Mostly because by QQing the raven 3L into oblivion you inadvertently nurfed the other two ravens to where ever is worse than oblivion. Now you dont have the lights to kill the lights...

Off the cliff. Whats lower then the cliff you just fell off of? I want to know because we are going to get there.

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 19 October 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Homeless Bill, on 17 October 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

There's clearly not a lot of aiming skill in this video, but here's what I experience: http://www.twitch.tv..._bill/c/3100317

A few of those are clear misses, but a few of those should have registered some decent damage. At the end, it's hardly scratched. And then the Jenner melts like it always does.

Watch for marks on the ground: they're showing, that lasers are definitely going through Spider, as if he is ghost. Same may happen with missiles.

P.S. This forum definitely has problems with loading scripts - takes 20 minutes of freezing to make one post.

Edited by MrMadguy, 19 October 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[Taemien]

wintersborn, on 17 October 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I'm sorry but Garth? needs to pull his head out of his [redacted]. This is a obvious and documented bug or problem with hit reg etc. on the SPIDER!

This is why people hate this company.

No money from me until I see some heads sans [redacted].

I'm going to call this bluff (and not specifically to this one, but to others in general). Though this one doesn't have any PP tags listed. Many others do who have made similar claims prior to the announcement of the program. That leads me to believe that most people are bluffing.

Personally if a company took a direction I didn't like, or did something unethical. I'd drop them without a word. Its one thing to disagree with changes or direction with the game. But posting it to garner support to self justify it is rather pointless IMO.

My advice to you all who honestly think PGI can't code their way out of a paper bag, or think the devs are a-holes, or simply think the game is broken and won't be better. Leave. Get out of Dodge. Be happy with something else. This is honest advice. I'm not simplying saying "don't like it, get out." Don't continue with the battered woman syndrome. If enough do this, changes will in fact happen.

If they don't, then the next company that picks up the franchise will know what not to do.

DeaconW, on 17 October 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

You are a great Jenner pilot...I've seen you. Why you would stoop to driving a spider is beyond me.

I have too much self-respect to pilot a spider...but you do what you want.

WTF does respect have to do with what mech one pilots? If they bought it, why shouldn't they use it? This is the typical class envy from WoW. Leave it in the Blizzard games. You're a tool if you judge someone on a personal level by something they use in a video game. Simple as that. Get off your high horse and get over yourselves. You aren't as 'good' as you think you are.

MrMadguy, on 19 October 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Another weird thing, I've noticed about lights, is that they can avoid missles. Missles are not hitting them - missles are hitting the ground behind them. That means, that it is possible, that missles tracking system has some kind of delay while tracking lights' position, so missles are going to the point right behind the lights, not directly to them, and on some speed this allows lights to completely avoid missles.For example my CPLT-C4 has 4xLRM10. It's 44 total damage per lounch. Ok. Now we have some kind of LRM damage spread mechainc to avoid CT one-shoots. Some missles could even miss the target. But. It's still should be very noticable damage, as lights have only about 160-200 points of armor. 2-4 launchs should 100% kill them. But what are we seeing now? Firing LRMs to lights is almost worthless, cuz lights are avoiding 99% of damage.

I believe this is by design. Using speed to avoid missiles has been around as early as MW2, and as late as MWLL and everything inbetween. Just like speed makes it harder to nail a target with PPCs or even lasers. Missiles suffer the same inaccuracies.

There is a bit of play with missiles to actually get them to hit lights. A light that is focusing on you 1v1 will be able to avoid 100% of the missiles if they are good enough (most aren't). You can try to mitigate that by offsetting the launch times of the missiles. But against a decent pilot, expect less then optimal results.

Boating LRMs only is a good way to be light mech bait or rather anything bait thats faster then 80kph. I use secondary weapons with my LRMs to chase off the buggers into a better spot. Or just kill them.


Back to the subject about the hitbox. It looks like its a fix that needs to happen. A hole in the CT is a big issue. But I wouldn't take what a dev said in a game to face value. From what I saw in the screenshot, it looks like he was trying to politely say, f-off.

Personally if I were a game dev and had players grilling into me when I'm actually just trying to play.. I'd have said something far worse. And the one guy using foul language I'd just ban on the spot. Why? Because I could and they'd deserve it. And perhaps he did.

Is it bad for PR? Sure. But if I were a dev, that means I'm a coder, not a Community Representative (makie feelie goodie person). Course Garth's biggest mistake is not using an alias. I think all devs should use aliases in game and use CR's to speak to the community and other things.

Yeah, the players want to be touchie feelie with the devs. And want to think the devs give a flip about their feelings. But in reality, they shouldn't bother. I'd love to chat with the president about things, but none of them have taken office hours with the public since Jackson I believe. And for good reason. The devs should do the same.

Edited by Taemien, 19 October 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

MrMadguy, on 19 October 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Another weird thing, I've noticed about lights, is that they can avoid missles. Missles are not hitting them - missles are hitting the ground behind them. That means, that it is possible, that missles tracking system has some kind of delay while tracking lights' position, so missles are going to the point right behind the lights, not directly to them, and on some speed this allows lights to completely avoid missles.For example my CPLT-C4 has 4xLRM10. It's 44 total damage per lounch. Ok. Now we have some kind of LRM damage spread mechainc to avoid CT one-shoots. Some missles could even miss the target. But. It's still should be very noticable damage, as lights have only about 160-200 points of armor. 2-4 launchs should 100% kill them. But what are we seeing now? Firing LRMs to lights is almost worthless, cuz lights are avoiding 99% of damage.

That's just a feature of the missile's turn rate and the dive-bombing arc they use. The missiles are trying to hit where the mech is, not where it's going to be, so if the mech moves fast enough, it will get out from under them and they can't turn enough to compensate. It's not just Lights, though they tend to be faster, so they benefit more. Any mech with reasonable speed can do this to some degree, especially if moving laterally to the shooter. Well-timed jumps help, too.

The trick to shooting Lights with LRMs is to shoot at them when they are engaged with other friendlies (preferably friendly Lights) and they need to maneuver. Maneuvering (turning, jumping, dodging) will cause drops in speed and occasional short stops, giving the missiles a chance to catch them. Or they may even change direction and run smack into the missiles coming at them. Their defense is to run like hell in a fairly straight line or hide behind cover. If they turn tail and run, your friendlies can shoot them in the back. If they try to cower behind cover, they aren't mobile.

I do it all the time with LRMs and get a fair number of Light kills, or at least beat the hell out of them/leg them, making it easier for the friendlies they're engaged with to finish them. it works best with chain-fire, because it keeps up more of a stream. 5-6xLRM5s on chain-fire are extremely effective for this, if they don't have AMS.

[ClumsyKlutz]

Yeah..you can be milked for more money, if we fix the spider or not.
So...its working as intended, nothing to fix.

Totally understandable from PGIs perspective and form a developers POV.
If a bug is just an annoyance, and the effort neccessary to fix it is large enough, it will stay there and shrugged about.
Maybe that's something a lot of players have to learn. PGI is here to make money, not to please customers. The poeple loving BT will come anyway, regardless of the quality of the game. There is not other BT-game at the moment, so why should they care to make it more than mediocre?

They come, they pay. Just make more empty promises, bring some new chassis into the game, milk with more Hero mechs, and off you go. After 3-4 years the costs will supersede the income and the whole thing will be shut down.

Onto the next game!

It's not EVE online, where the players/community really build something..it's just an IP-milking, thats all.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Garth, I like you, and I like playing with you. I dare say youa re one of my favorite devs to drop into a game with. Please take this as what it is, constructive criticism. The SDR hitboxes are NOT IN ANY WAY FUNCTIONAL. If you think they are, your head is so far up your *** you simply cannot see.

Please reconsider this position, as it has a very detrimental effect on gameplay, and ignoring will not make it go away or seem OK. Next, you're going to be telling us that the LCT leg hitboxes are fine, too. Please, please listen to your community.

[MrMadguy]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 October 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

That's just a feature of the missile's turn rate and the dive-bombing arc they use. The missiles are trying to hit where the mech is, not where it's going to be, so if the mech moves fast enough, it will get out from under them and they can't turn enough to compensate. It's not just Lights, though they tend to be faster, so they benefit more. Any mech with reasonable speed can do this to some degree, especially if moving laterally to the shooter. Well-timed jumps help, too.

The trick to shooting Lights with LRMs is to shoot at them when they are engaged with other friendlies (preferably friendly Lights) and they need to maneuver. Maneuvering (turning, jumping, dodging) will cause drops in speed and occasional short stops, giving the missiles a chance to catch them. Or they may even change direction and run smack into the missiles coming at them. Their defense is to run like hell in a fairly straight line or hide behind cover. If they turn tail and run, your friendlies can shoot them in the back. If they try to cower behind cover, they aren't mobile.

I do it all the time with LRMs and get a fair number of Light kills, or at least beat the hell out of them/leg them, making it easier for the friendlies they're engaged with to finish them. it works best with chain-fire, because it keeps up more of a stream. 5-6xLRM5s on chain-fire are extremely effective for this, if they don't have AMS.

I just thought, that something exists, that should counter lights. Ballistics? To slow. Lasers? Damage is too spread. (Heh, you saw everything on those video - damage just goes through lights). So what? Missiles? I just thought, that missiles should counter lights due to their guided nature. So no? There is no way to counter lights? Do you think, that it's a good balance? I already started thinking about implementing new modules in game, that will counter lights - stun, slow, root modules. That may be the good way to make medium mechs actual again, if this modules will be exclusive for them.

[FupDup]

MrMadguy, on 20 October 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

I just thought, that something exists, that should counter lights. Ballistics? To slow. Lasers? Damage is too spread. (Heh, you saw everything on those video - damage just goes through lights). So what? Missiles? I just thought, that missiles should counter lights due to their guided nature. So no? There is no way to counter lights? Do you think, that it's a good balance? I already started thinking about implementing new modules in game, that will counter lights - stun, slow, root modules. That may be the good way to make medium mechs actual again, if this modules will be exclusive for them.

Streaks are the missiles you're looking for. They have arguably the lowest skill floor of any weapon in the game and their spread-out nature doesn't matter very much against targets that have low armor to begin with.

On a side-note, ballistics are perfectly fine against lights barring the few cases where a shot doesn't register. The pinpointed damage is especially deadly against such lightly armored targets. Lasers are very useful as well, even with the spread damage factored in (the main perk is that they're hitscan and duration so you can always get a partial-hit).


The only weapons that are not effective at killing lights are Flamers, Machine Guns (usually), maybe AC/2, and LRMs (unless you're using Jack's technique). Everything else kills the bugs dead.

Edited by FupDup, 20 October 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

Homeless Bill, on 17 October 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

All I know is that I can leg any other light with ease (and the Locust with a sneeze), but I'll be damned if I can do a ******* thing about Spiders. More than likely, I'm bad and I should feel bad.

I like to be diplomatic.

There MIGHT be a problem with a spider's hitboxes. We don't know for sure, hell, with the convoluted mechanics PGI implements I'm sure they're not even sure. What we DO know is that there IS a problem with hitreg.
Once that's fixed, we can check if the spider still has some weird hitreg problems.

Edited by PanzerMagier, 20 October 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

PanzerMagier, on 20 October 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I like to be diplomatic.

There MIGHT be a problem with a spider's hitboxes. We don't know for sure, hell, with the convoluted mechanics PGI implements I'm sure they're not even sure. What we DO know is that there IS a problem with hitreg.
Once that's fixed, we can check if the spider still has some weird hitreg problems.

Incorrect. We do know for sure because there is clear video evidence of spiders not taking damage even when not moving and inside the training grounds. The fact that Garth is saying they are fine and don't need a change is directly in conflict with this evidence, and in complete ignorance of it.

Garth, please don't continue ignoring the blatantly obvious and previously proven fact that spiders do not take damage correctly.

[Otto Cannon]

This is an interesting read.

https://plus.google....sts/bW5qtbXVKDU

[Riptor]

Spidy mech... Spidy mech..

Does whatever a spidy mech does...

Try to hit him... dont register...

enemy fire... unimpressed

Watch out! Here comes the spidey mech!

[Motroid]

My guess on this topic would be (tinfoilhat alert):
Spiders help enormously with new player experience. Basicly they are low cost, jack of all trades, endgame mechs. Jumpjets and ECM are also very useful for new players and are fun to use. They are also the perfect start to the rather sophisticated gameplay mechanics. Plain and simple: Spiders ease the way for new players advancing to more challenging chassis.
If I am correct here, why in the world should PGI change this? It is once more: Working as intended.
Same thing with the lack of collision damage and knock-downs. Would only be frustrating for new players owning their one and only mech (lightmech as usual due to low costs) when waiting for their mech to be released after a minute 2 knockdown and takeout...
Listen carefully, money talks...

[Corwin Vickers]

I started to write another long post about all the factors that go into hitting light mechs but I realized that none of you actually want to learn how to play the game.

Also some of you have a 14.4Kbps modem and a IBM 386 computer and think that the game code is ****** because you can't hit light mechs with your 500 ping and 1 fps.


HIT DETECTION ISSUES ARE CAUSED BY PEOPLE WITH BAD PING/PACKETLOSS. It's not rocket surgery. It's not new. It's been that way since people started playing games on the internet instead of at LAN parties.

What you see on your screen is the simulation, what happens on the server is all that counts. The worse your ping or the worse your targets ping the less accurate that simulation will be.

All those games where this is not true are client side authority games and they are plagued by hacking.
http://mwomercs.com/...vs-server-side/

You should thank god that we have a server authority based game. They are harder to make and require a lot more server and bandwidth resources.

Then to use the oh so broken leg models of the locust as an example oh how easy lights should be to hit? Everyone knows that the hit boxes are ginormous on the locust right? FAR bigger than they look. Probably a precaution by PGI against all you light mech whiners on the forums. You are Terribad!!!

If you had perfect ping and your target had perfect ping you'd still have issues like the article Otto posted above. Newsflash! Light mechs are harder to hit! That's the way it's supposed to be.
https://plus.google....sts/bW5qtbXVKDU

I have more time in assaults that any other class and I, like most people, have been having lots of fun in the Battlemaster and Thunderbolt. I have no problem hitting any light mech unless he is totally warping around the screen (packetloss). The rest of the time I am swatting them like flies. They are already incredibly weak.

The reason people like me defend light mechs is not because we're "light pilots" but because whiners like you are the reason why LRMs are the pathetic noob weapons you see today. And I know many of you will say "LRMs are good!" but that's because you are bad

...and another long post...

[DeadlyNerd]

garth is a {Dezgra} and we know that. it's amusing watching him prove it though.

[DeadlyNerd]

Corwin Vickers, on 20 October 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Also some of you have a 14.4Kbps modem and a IBM 386 computer and think that the game code is ****** because you can't hit light mechs with your 500 ping and 1 fps.


HIT DETECTION ISSUES ARE CAUSED BY PEOPLE WITH BAD PING/PACKETLOSS. It's not rocket surgery. It's not new. It's been that way since people started playing games on the internet instead of at LAN parties.

So UT,BF,CoD,CS:GO can have perfect hit detection despite people having 100-150 pings, but MWO can't. Yes, I see how that's a client problem.

[Sable Dove]

DeadlyNerd, on 20 October 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

So UT,BF,CoD,CS:GO can have perfect hit detection despite people having 100-150 pings, but MWO can't. Yes, I see how that's a client problem.

The difference is that the games you list either primarily use hitscan weapons, or they simply have no way of actually telling if a projectile did or did not do damage.

[akpavker]

Riptor, on 20 October 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Spidy mech... Spidy mech..

Does whatever a spidy mech does...

Try to hit him... dont register...

enemy fire... unimpressed

Watch out! Here comes the spidey mech!

where is the green goblin when you need him???