338 replies to this topic

[wintersborn]

I have been running a streak Kintaro to go after the broken Spiders.

Streaks are not all they are cracked up to be and they do miss fast Spiders. Even with the XL360 a Spider can get out of range within a few shots. Even with BAP a pack of lights make you useless and since you are so freeking huge you wont last long enough to kill but one solo Spider.

New or stock spiders is another story but decent pilots are not scared by Streaks. My LB10X Cicada is better at legging Spiders so far.

Long story short The ECM spider is obviously the hardest mech in the game to hit. We have all seen the last spider dancing with 4-5 med/heavies shooting at it and it just runs off until that very lucky shot.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

A fix will happen one way or the other. Wallets are beginning to speak louder than the forums.

[MrMadguy]

Corwin Vickers, on 20 October 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

I started to write another long post about all the factors that go into hitting light mechs but I realized that none of you actually want to learn how to play the game.

Also some of you have a 14.4Kbps modem and a IBM 386 computer and think that the game code is ****** because you can't hit light mechs with your 500 ping and 1 fps.


HIT DETECTION ISSUES ARE CAUSED BY PEOPLE WITH BAD PING/PACKETLOSS. It's not rocket surgery. It's not new. It's been that way since people started playing games on the internet instead of at LAN parties.

Sorry, but developers are making game for wide range of players and they should take ping into account (even double ping due to server-side nature of the game). That means, devs should not use features, that are unreliable for players with 100-150ms ping (80% of players). If speed and tiny hit boxes are making hit detection very unreliable for 80% of players, then developers just should not use this design. They should: 1) Adjust hit boxes. 2) Decrease speed. And what are we seeing now? They are doing the opposite - they are increasing speed cap even more. That makes lights invulnerable and non counterable. But after playing many other MMOs, I understand devs intent clearly. It's called FOTM design: if you can't fix imbalance - use it as advantage. They have lights sale now and just want to sell more of them. But they should understand, that while FOTM concept is good in short term (it brings extra profits from sales), but it's very bad in long term, cuz it causes players to burn out from game and quit. And game's player base is often limited, which means burning out from game = slow game's death.

Edited by MrMadguy, 20 October 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[wintersborn]

Yeah the ping/lag excuse is not valid.

[Corwin Vickers]

DeadlyNerd, on 20 October 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

So UT,BF,CoD,CS:GO can have perfect hit detection despite people having 100-150 pings, but MWO can't. Yes, I see how that's a client problem.

All games notorious for cheating because they are client authority games. As people have pointed out, punkbuster cannot stop cheating.

Also you make it seem like high ping people compete in those games. They do not.

Also those are player run servers that are regionally placed. There is no match maker, there is no player pool. You play with the same 32 guys for 40 minutes or whatever.

Completely different animal. This is more like being a Euro player when WoW only had US servers. They suffered.


With 100-150 ping you should be able to hit spiders relatively easy if you are any good. You just need to lead, same as the rest of us. It's more the 250 ping players I have sympathy for.

[AssaultPig]

The problem is that even when you do lead them and hit them (according to your client), the server frequently doesn't register a hit (or registers a partial hit, in the case of lasers.)

The problem created by server side hit detection is that the player can't know precisely where the target will is, because you're waiting on the server to update your client. It's even worse when the spider pilot has a relatively high ping (say, ~200), because then their mech appears to accelerate erratically and even warp a bit.

Most mechs (even other lights) don't create the issues spiders create because their hitboxes are big and boxy. Even if you wind up doing less damage than you think you should be (according to your client), you're doing something. But spider hitboxes are so small and their position changes so rapidly (thanks jump jets!) that the area you have to aim at is incredibly small and even the hits that you do appear land often do nothing.

It's really frustrating the PGI apparently just doesn't give a **** about this. Most of the mechs in the game work well enough but spiders are ******* horrible to fight against. If the "launch" party hadn't demonstrated that they don't have a local client that works, I would assume all their playtesting was being done on local intranet or something.

I will say that whenever I get frustrated by spiders I just load up my SSRM10 KTO-18 and splatter a couple, which that mech does with relative ease. But it's stupid that the only way to deal with a spider is to either boat streaks or bring three friends.

[DeadlyNerd]

Corwin Vickers, on 20 October 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

All games notorious for cheating because they are client authority games. As people have pointed out, punkbuster cannot stop cheating.

Also you make it seem like high ping people compete in those games. They do not.

Also those are player run servers that are regionally placed. There is no match maker, there is no player pool. You play with the same 32 guys for 40 minutes or whatever.

Completely different animal. This is more like being a Euro player when WoW only had US servers. They suffered.


With 100-150 ping you should be able to hit spiders relatively easy if you are any good. You just need to lead, same as the rest of us. It's more the 250 ping players I have sympathy for.

Your whole argument is assumptions and random facts. It holds no ground and you're being the prime example of how this community is turning into CoD kiddies.

[Corwin Vickers]

Except that I've been playing battletech for almost 30 years, and I don't play COD and I kill spiders all the time.

What's wrong with a random fact? What are my assumptions?

I'm not the ******* who's whining to have a mech nerfed because I can't aim.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Yeah the ping/lag excuse is not valid.

Right, PGI is responsible for the quality of your internet connection... sorry if your connection is bouncing around more than a horde of kids in a bounce house and/or your dropping packets like a fat kids dropping crumbs in a cake eating contest... There's not squat that PGI can do. You get to play for free, you buy mechs if you want... that's a bit different from dropping 50-60$ on a title. So buck up and grow a set folx.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

The frustration players feel the most imo is that while spiders are indeed killable, they soak about twice the damage as other lights due to their design. Being that the devs love playing spiders just adds more fuel to the fire.

I have several mediums and lights dedicated to just hunting spider pilots, and no one set of weapons/loadout works better than the other which is uncommon for this game where most average pilots get comfortable with one or two mechs they enjoy.

Another thing I notice about spiders is they almost never lose their arms, ever, and can zombie just as easily as Cents. That in itself is an issue that was swept under the carpet. All in all it's a superior mech to even some mediums, and most players are jelly, but it doesn't deny the fact that spiders are broken for the kind of slower stompy playstyle MWO caters to.

[Corwin Vickers]

Personally I just use whatever I happen to be playing at the time and I'm a "clear the X2 experience" kind of guy with 45 mechs now? Unless I'm getting ganged and have open sections everywhere spiders are just not an issue. And even then there are so many targets that are actually capable of dealing damage.

[Livewyr]

That was real smooth-
Smooth part 1: Spider hitboxes aren't particularly broken- it's a hitreg problem shared by all mechs, just most prevalent on Spiders and Locust- being tiny mechs. I kill spiders all the time, the same way I kill Jenners, and Commandos, and Locusts. AC20.

Smooth part 2: post a screenshot of you swearing to/at a Dev in game.

[Hika]

I would like to know the K / D of the people who say that the spider is not broken...

a spider stood in front of me, was still, I hit in the torso 3 times with the AC20 - the spider was like to give a ****.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Locusts seem to take damage just fine....HMMM.

[Wolfways]

There is an obvious fix for the hitreg problems, but many don't want it.
As the faster the mech the worse the problem is, just slow everything down.

*Puts on flame resistant suit and moves to the arctic*

[Mehlan]

LeHika, on 21 October 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I would like to know the K / D of the people who say that the spider is not broken...

a spider stood in front of me, was still, I hit in the torso 3 times with the AC20 - the spider was like to give a ****.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=QQmU7qntUsQ So can you explain why sometimes they take hits fine and others they don't, if the mech is the problem?

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Wolfways, on 21 October 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

There is an obvious fix for the hitreg problems, but many don't want it.
As the faster the mech the worse the problem is, just slow everything down.

*Puts on flame resistant suit and moves to the arctic*

Personally, while I neither agree nor disagree with the much larger max engine rating in 'mechs compared to the engine rating used by the stock variant, I do find it a very interesting and still unexplained choice that PGI made.

This is 'stompy robots', or 'Real Robots', so while I understand that people like being able to move faster and smoother, I'm not sure why PGI is going to so much trouble to enable so much higher speed. There's probably a reason, but I'm curious to what it is.

[AC]

Elli Gujar, on 21 October 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Personally, while I neither agree nor disagree with the much larger max engine rating in 'mechs compared to the engine rating used by the stock variant, I do find it a very interesting and still unexplained choice that PGI made. This is 'stompy robots', or 'Real Robots', so while I understand that people like being able to move faster and smoother, I'm not sure why PGI is going to so much trouble to enable so much higher speed. There's probably a reason, but I'm curious to what it is.

The progression of a mech seems to be Endo-->DHS-->larger engine. Or all of the at once if you have the cash. I wish there was some downside to a few of these.

Endo - Maybe standard internals are tougher so for every point of damage to the internals, standard would only take .75 damage. Right now the critical space just isn't enough of a deterant to build mechs without endo. Some mechs go without (but they are typically assault mechs)

Larger Engine - In other mech warrior games, the faster you went the worse you cornered. In other words, if you wanted to run circle of death around an atlas, you had to cut your speed back. You should have to choose between running 150kph or cornering like a race car. Right now light mechs get to do both and this never made any sense to me. In real like we tend to slow down to take a corner, we don't just crank the wheel and have the car turn on a dime....

I got nothing for DHS, but those have been beat to death anyway.

Edited by AC, 21 October 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Wolfways, on 21 October 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

There is an obvious fix for the hitreg problems, but many don't want it.
As the faster the mech the worse the problem is, just slow everything down.

*Puts on flame resistant suit and moves to the arctic*

I think they did make everything slower.

I think 169 now is the same as 152 used to be with everything else slowed down correspondingly.

I don't think any mech is faster than it used to be prepatch.

Easy way to "increase the cap" while not actually taxing the engine anymore than it was before.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Larger Engine - In other mech warrior games, the faster you went the worse you cornered. In other words, if you wanted to run circle of death around an atlas, you had to cut your speed back. You should have to choose between running 150kph or cornering like a race car. Right now light mechs get to do both and this never made any sense to me. In real like we tend to slow down to take a corner, we don't just crank the wheel and have the car turn on a dime....

Actually in order to close circle a mech, one already has to reduce speed in order to stay in close...as they did prior to this 'speed increase'.... this of course to a degree is dependent on mech and speed. But no 169kph spider is doing top speed and staying within a meter, circling another mech.