338 replies to this topic

[AntiSqueaker]

Victor Morson, on 23 October 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

... really? REALLY? If ever I needed a facepalm emoticon this screenshot is it.

Also an amusing point: Everyone has blamed the scale of the Spider for the issue for ages but I have no problem hitting Locusts I actually hit.

QFT. I play my Hunchback 4-G about 2/3rds of the time. If a Locust is coming at me and I shoot it in the face with an AC/20, it dies. Hard. And then I laugh, because I love coring out light mechs.

If I shoot a spider in the same situation, I yank out a rosary and start praying.

It's not some sort of rare issue, everyone I talk to on the House Marik TS about it has had it happen at least a couple of time within recent games.

[Mehlan]

Asian Tupac, on 23 October 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

I can explain.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE VIDEO

HE posted a video of a spider being shot with SRM2s with no tracking shooting them into the exact same spot.

YOU posted a video of a spider being shot with STREAK SRM2s that do not miss and are locked on.

The point is that you are pretty much REQUIRED to use SSRM2s to reliably hit/kill spiders (which happens oddly enough to be the weapon of choice in your video)

Distort the issue much?

No, because if you paid attention in the original post I provided it in I stated the the first launch into test that I had the streaks do precisely the same thing... if you also could read you might have noted the discourse around that is hitboxes vs other. The ISSUE being wether it is the mech/model or something else that is causing the issue/issues.

So let me counter your

Quote

Distort the issue much?

with, Learn to Read.

Edited by Mehlan, 24 October 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Krivvan]

Victor Morson, on 23 October 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

Also an amusing point: Everyone has blamed the scale of the Spider for the issue for ages but I have no problem hitting Locusts I actually hit.

It's not the scale of the Spider, it's the shape. The Locust may be as small, but its shape is far easier to hit.

The window for your shot to actually hit a Spider is tiny compared to a Locust. Enough so that HSR usually can't compensate enough or your client registers a hit that the server disagrees with fairly often.

Edited by Krivvan, 24 October 2013 - 04:40 AM.

[kongman]

so MWO is saying it ok to hack there game as they are doing it !

Krivvan, on 24 October 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

It's not the scale of the Spider, it's the shape. The Locust may be as small, but its shape is far easier to hit.

The window for your shot to actually hit a Spider is tiny compared to a Locust. Enough so that HSR usually can't compensate enough or your client registers a hit that the server disagrees with fairly often.

hitting the spider isn't the problem , its damaging it .

Edited by kongman, 24 October 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Krivvan]

kongman, on 24 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

hitting the spider isn't the problem , its damaging it .

No, hitting the Spider is the problem. It shows up as a hit on your client, but the game server's version of events doesn't have you hitting the Spider. It's not that damage magically doesn't happen (even in those videos it's a tiny part of the mech, and the problem is hard to reproduce). It's that the hit didn't count on the server's end even though you saw the hit on your end.

[Wrathful-Khan]

I'm with the people that say it's a combo of issues leading to bad hitreg.

My solution: PGI build a European and an Asian server.

Now everybody has comparable ping and HSR doesn't have to work crazy wonders.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Well if the hit box is not being changed then the only thing left to fix is the communities perception of the spider. Since the community pays the bills, good luck with that one.

[Hillslam]

the hitboxes are being looked at. this thread is out of date

[Mehlan]

Quote

the hitboxes are being looked at. this thread is out of date

All mechs are getting their hitboxes reviewed, your point is moot.

[aniviron]

Mehlan, on 11 November 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

All mechs are getting their hitboxes reviewed, your point is moot.

However, most mechs weren't put on a priority list because their hitboxes weren't deemed to be incredibly problematic.

Regardless, this thread will be obsolete soon, except maybe as a curiosity we can show to the younger Sibkin.

[Monkey Lover]

Hillslam, on 11 November 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

the hitboxes are being looked at. this thread is out of date

They might be getting hitbox reviews soon but they said it would have nothing to do with hitbox detection and that would be done by a diffect department

[Hillslam]

Mehlan, on 11 November 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

All mechs are getting their hitboxes reviewed, your point is moot.

Don't be facetious. I'm not going to banter pointless semantics with you.

The spider hitboxes will be looked at. They will likely be changed.

My guess is some change along the lines of what happened to the Raven's legs.

Monkey Lover, on 11 November 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

They might be getting hitbox reviews soon but they said it would have nothing to do with hitbox detection and that would be done by a diffect department

I'd say then its a good thing I didn't say or allude to any of that. I said the thread was out of date. Updated info given. Now thread is up to date.

The thread may now proceed with the pointless back and forth arguments.

Edited by Hillslam, 12 November 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Suzano]

the last changes didn`t work. The Spider Hitbox is so buggy as before. This sux.

[FupDup]

Suzano, on 27 November 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

the last changes didn`t work. The Spider Hitbox is so buggy as before. This sux.

Or, perhaps it turns out that hitboxes were never the issue in the first place, and the same thing will happen to the Spider that already happened to the Raven after the real problem gets fixed?

[mikehunter82]

Captain Midnight, on 17 October 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

There is no universal hitreg problem, there are hitreg problems on SPECIFIC mechs, namely the spider. I can hit jenners, ravens, and locusts no problem. The exact same shots miss against spiders.

Altough being quite new in MWO (playing 6 months maybe), i have to totally agree. Guess why many good players pilot Spiders...
Just had a match, proving it again - i hit Spider`s torso at least 2 times with dual GAUSS!!! and some dual ML at maybe 100m range - Spider`s armor just showed yellow...
When i hit ANY other mech (except maybe Atlas` front CT) with my dual Gauss, their armor goes orange or red. 2nd hit on a same spot usually damages internals. When i shoot ANY other light mech, usually
1st dual Gauss hit damages internals...
Of course that same Spider killed me in my K2 (circle of death with LRM incoming), ended up as last enemy alive killing 5!!! our mechs and doing 750dmg!!!...
I personally hate that mech, me too have NO PROBLEM killing other lights. Even a 5ML Jenner,
over-firepowered imo, i CAN hit and kill it...
Btw i`ve seen NGNG stream where one of them piloted a spider, took at least 3 AC hits (audible+screenshakes) - NO additional dmg showed up...
PLS devs FIX that issue, whatever it is. Or take Spiders out of the game until fixed, bcs now ppl can abuse those mechs to be a ROYAL pain in the butt, with not much sklil needed:(...

[Ngamok]

Corwin Vickers, on 20 October 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

All games notorious for cheating because they are client authority games. As people have pointed out, punkbuster cannot stop cheating.

Also you make it seem like high ping people compete in those games. They do not.

Also those are player run servers that are regionally placed. There is no match maker, there is no player pool. You play with the same 32 guys for 40 minutes or whatever.

Completely different animal. This is more like being a Euro player when WoW only had US servers. They suffered.


With 100-150 ping you should be able to hit spiders relatively easy if you are any good. You just need to lead, same as the rest of us. It's more the 250 ping players I have sympathy for.

I know CoD is notorious for ping compensation as well. Especially in MW3 where the devs admitted they tried to average out the pings so people with low pings were given a delay. That's why in that game, when you'd die going around corners, the player that killed you was watching you take a smoke break before killing you. Then they took it out after several complaints. I think they put it back in for Ghosts.

[Sable Dove]

Suzano, on 27 November 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

the last changes didn`t work. The Spider Hitbox is so buggy as before. This sux.

That's because the hitboxes were never bugged. The Spider is small, fast, and well-designed. The problem was that their size made it hard to hit them because leading them meant your weapons would converge wrong, and half your shots would miss.

Or people failed to realize that the game is server-authoritative, and that just because they see a hit, doesn't mean the server did.

PGI's solution was just to give the Spider larger hitboxes than its model. As HSR improves, the Spider is going to go right back down to the bottom of the list because of their overly-large hitboxes.

[Odins Fist]

Sable Dove, on 27 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

just because they see a hit, doesn't mean the server did.

Then just how were people supposed to gauge whether or not they were actually seeing what they were seeing?

It should be obvious if all your instruments AND visuals are showing a HIT, yet nothing (or little) is happening, then there has to be some sort of issue somewhere..

Odins Fist, on 05 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Spiders are not OP... A lot of people have no problems HITTING Spiders...
Most people have a problem with them not taking damage in relation to the damage output of their weapons. or at least that's what they think.

There is no consistency when it comes to damage done to spiders, people are saying the same exact situation should not produce so many different results to the point at which the community has noticed.

When all your indicators show a HIT, yet no additional damage is done, then there is some sort of issue.
How is a newer player supposed to gauge whether or not everything his instruments and visual indications show is actually happening? I think that has a lot of newer players scratching their heads.

Hitting them is not the problem... People thinking that their shots are just sliding off the Spider is.
Now this doesn't happen every single time with the Spider, BUT here is the problem, are you ready for it..??
There is NO CONSISTENCY.

#1. Sometimes all indicators show a hit and what seems to be very little damage is done. (armor or no armor left)
#2. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and all damage seems to be done. (armor or no armor left)
#3. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and ZERO damage seems to be done. (armor or no armor left)
#4. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and the Spider dies even though he had what looks like full armor.
#5. Sometimes no sensors show hit, only visual confirmation of round hitting, and Spider takes no damage.
#6. Sometimes no sensors show hit, only visual confirmation of round hitting, and Spider dies.

These issues do NOT exist soley with the Spider, and this is NOT always the case with killing an enemy Spider.
However, the frequency of uncertainty as it relates to the damage the Spider takes depending on examples #1 to #6, is quite apparent in comments from players in the community.

Is this a Hit Box issue..?? Unknown, and perhaps there is no design flaw with the mech itself.
Is this HSR issue..?? Possible, but we haven't been given any concrete info to look at.

Is there no issue at all..?? More then highly unlikely, the amount of feedback sighting the same issues over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by multitudes of players across the board, and even from those that pilot Spiders says otherwise.

I ran a Spider©-Trial for a few rounds one day, and I was surprised at the inconsistency of the damage I was taking considering I was weaving in and out of large formations of the enemy, I just couldn't believe that 5 mechs at a a time all had so awful AIM that they couldn't manage to get my Armor past yellow, and that my arms or legs didn't come off after the amount of fire I received.. Maybe I wasn't being hit as much as I thought...

It's funny that using the same approach to aiming and hitting other lights going similar speeds is seen to produce different results by players, this indicated by comments I have read.
I will say this, I know the Locust has nowhere near the armor of a Spider, but I have obliterated so many Locusts with FAR less effort then I have Spiders using the same approach..
Is my AIM off that much..?? Possible, but highly unlikely, and I have seen examples #1 through #6 myself to varying degrees.

No issue with how the Spider takes damage?
Oh well, only the future will tell huh..??
.
.

So has nothing improved..?????

[Sable Dove]

Odins Fist, on 27 November 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Then just how were people supposed to gauge whether or not they were actually seeing what they were seeing?

It should be obvious if all your instruments AND visuals are showing a HIT, yet nothing (or little) is happening, then there has to be some sort of issue somewhere..

So has nothing improved..?????

Use the Testing grounds, where there is no latency. Against a moving target, thee's no way of being sure. Most of the 'proof' I've seen of issues with the Spider are from people who saw a hit, but the server didn't, or didn't hit nearly as much as they thought they did.

Other issues: SRMs have deadzones on virtually all mechs. Hit indications do not always display correctly (paper doll doesn't update, reticle doesn't flash, paper doll shows damage to locations that were not hit, etc.). Damage to destroyed components is often transferred to the wrong component on many mechs.

There is no credible evidence that there ever was a significant problem with the Spider. The Spider is easier to kill now because it has hitboxes that are a fair amount larger than the actual model.

If it seems just as hard, it's because it's mostly the best light pilots that use the Spider now.

[Adiuvo]

Sable Dove, on 27 November 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

If it seems just as hard, it's because it's mostly the best light pilots that use the Spider now.

Ehh... not really. Everyone of note thinks the Jenner is better. Spiders are only used under weight restricted matches.