48 replies to this topic

[dal10]

so are the macross designs still considered unseen?

[James The Fox Dixon]

Marack Drock, on 10 November 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Yes. Valkyrie, Phoenix Hawk, Warhammer, Rifleman, and all variations of Marauder are all Macross and unseen. Macross is owned by Harmony Gold which also owns the Dougram mechs also which are Battlemaster, Griffin, Wolverine. Thunderbolt, Scorpion, Shadowhawk, and Goliath. Locust is from an old anime called Crusher Joe. Behemoth is reseen under an agreement. It use to be unseen because "it looked like the Monster" from Robotech. Stinger, all the LAMS, Ostall, Wasp, Outscout, Ostsol, Super Wasp, almost all the IICs, Archer,and Longbow were also Robotech. All of these original designs are unseen.

No, HG doesn't own Macross and it definitely doesn't own Dougram or Crusher Joe. HG has a license to SDF Macross animation and merchandise rights within the context of Robotech, but it does not own anything contained within the animations. HG cannot make derivatives of the character and mech designs from SDF Macross which is why Robotech Shadow Chronicles uses new mecha and character designs of the characters and mechs that originated in SDF Macross. Only Studio Nue can make derivatives and they have.

Dougram is owned by Nippon Sunrise and never had a deal with HG. Crusher Joe is owned jointly by Nippon Sunrise and Studio Nue. SDF Macross is owned jointly by Studio Nue and Big West while Tatsunoko received the worldwide distribution rights for the animation only see the Japanese court cases brought about in 2002 and 2006. The Japanese courts ruled that Tatsunoko owns the animation and worldwide distribution rights while Studio Nue/Big West owns everything contained within the animation, including the storylines and can make derivative works.

HG got hit with a lawsuit by Big West in 2002 over their claim to all things Macross, plus their injunction against the merchandise, and HG lost. This allowed Big West to begin importing SDF Macross and its derivatives into the US as well as all of the merchandise related to this.

Catalyst has gotten a license to the use the original designs from the owners of Dougram and Crusher Joe, which is why those mechs are reseen. The only mechs that are touchy are the ones from Macross and it would required Catalyst to get a license from Studio Nue to be able to use them with the likely threat of a lawsuit from HG. Given how copyright law works in conjunction with the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, HG would lose due to the fact that Catalyst can bring in the Japanese court rulings to invalidate the clauses of the contract HG has with Tatsunoko as Tatsunoko had no authority to license the character and mech designs from Macross to HG.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 10 November 2013 - 10:12 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

The proverbial fly in the ointment. How much is it going to cost to get those licenses? Followed by how much will it cost to defended the court case and does PGI/IGP have that kind of unallocated cash to win it?

[Steinar Bergstol]

Nathan Foxbane, on 10 November 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

The proverbial fly in the ointment. How much is it going to cost to get those licenses? Followed by how much will it cost to defended the court case and does PGI/IGP have that kind of unallocated cash to win it?

And there's the problem. How much will it cost? Too much for a small company like PGI/IGP or Catalyst to take on Harmony Gold, most likely. Lawsuits are expensive and even if you're sure to win they can last a long time.

[Karyudo ds]

James The Fox Dixon, on 10 November 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

HG cannot make derivatives of the character and mech designs from SDF Macross which is why Robotech Shadow Chronicles uses new mecha and character designs of the characters and mechs that originated in SDF Macross. Only Studio Nue can make derivatives and they have.

Technically isn't the Robotech Tactics YF-4 a derivative as the alt modes for it never made it into the series but they mashed in some Mospeda anyway? Plus the VF-1R, or do those count as something else?

James The Fox Dixon, on 10 November 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

The only mechs that are touchy are the ones from Macross and it would required Catalyst to get a license from Studio Nue to be able to use them with the likely threat of a lawsuit from HG. Given how copyright law works in conjunction with the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, HG would lose due to the fact that Catalyst can bring in the Japanese court rulings to invalidate the clauses of the contract HG has with Tatsunoko as Tatsunoko had no authority to license the character and mech designs from Macross to HG.

For some reason I would love to see someone stick it to HG like that. Not to have Glaugs in Battletech, I just don't care much for HG (beyond maybe the Macross restoration). Of course that would all cost them money they could be spending on making games and such.

[Peter Thorndyke IV]

The YF-4 is a VF-4
In the Macross universe, the VF-4 fighter was developed by Stonewell Bellcom in late 2009, and was promoted as the "next generation" variable fighter for the UN-SPACY by the company. So its the next incarnation of the VF-1.

Easy to recognize, created by mechanical designer Shoji Kawamori :-)

[James The Fox Dixon]

Karyudo ds, on 11 November 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

Technically isn't the Robotech Tactics YF-4 a derivative as the alt modes for it never made it into the series but they mashed in some Mospeda anyway? Plus the VF-1R, or do those count as something else?

For some reason I would love to see someone stick it to HG like that. Not to have Glaugs in Battletech, I just don't care much for HG (beyond maybe the Macross restoration). Of course that would all cost them money they could be spending on making games and such.

The YF-4 appeared in the music video Flashback 2012 directed by Shoji Kawamori. I do believe that HG doesn't have a proper license for anything from Flashback 2012.

[dal10]

they could try to get a declaratory judgement that they don't infringe. though that would be appealed thirty times. unfortunately there is no way to stop appeals in cases like this.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Marack Drock, on 11 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Harmony Gold has all Licensing rights to MACROSS.

They bought the Dougram images in 1985 to make the Robotech Defenders series and they own all Robotech images as well. Robotech Defenders were all of the Dougram images. Crusher Joe has always been a seperate show and was never owned by Harmony Gold. But Dougram images were bought by Harmony Gold. Since Harmony Gold published Macross in early 80s they hold the rights to the images hense the Legal issues. This is why all the Dougram images were unseen. Because HG was being a {Richard Cameron}.

Try again since the Revell Robotech Defenders has nothing to do with HG's Robotech.

The Robotech Defenders are a line of scale model kits released by Revell during the early 1980s. Contrary to what their name seems to imply, the "'Robotech Defenders'" are not part of the Robotech Anime Universe adapted by Carl Macek and released by Harmony Gold USA, however they did adopt the same moniker and logo.
The "Robotech Defenders" were one of two "Robotech" lines released by Revell, the other being the "Robotech Changers". The "Robotech Changers" line initially consisted of three models based on the Valkyrie Variable fighter designs from Macross, and the NEBO model, based upon the Drifand of Super Dimension Century Orguss.
The "Robotech Defenders" model line was tied into a two-issue limited series of the same name, published by DC comics. It shares many common themes with other science fiction series of that time, including invading aliens, and giant mechanical war machines.

http://en.wikipedia....otech_Defenders

HG did not publish Macross. Macross was done by Studio Nue and Big West, initially, then brought in Tatsunoko to do the animating since Studio Nue couldn't do it at the time. Big West is the one that published, more specifically, produced the Macross show and HG didn't get involved until after the series had aired.

FASA willingly dropped the designs from Crusher Joe and Dougram to prevent further lawsuits, particularly from Revell, from model kit makers and others.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 11 November 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[dal10]

dude, they have whatever rights tatsunoko had, cept just in the US.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Marack Drock, on 11 November 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

HG had all the publishing rights to the Defenders. I said they had the License to Macross but did not own it. I never HG owned Macross and I never said they owned Dougram. But they had the images to them licensed in the US which is why there could be lawsuits in the first place as international suits are generally not fought unless there is a marketing company in the country which is why Nintendo could file a law suit against anyone as long as they had the license and copyrights in that country. Macross was licensed by HG in the US otherwise the other companies would be still in court from the same lawsuit 20 some odd years ago.

HG published the Defenders with Revell says it right there in your script.

Stating it to be true and proving it to be true. Prove it.

HG didn't publish or produce Defenders, they had a shared licensing agreement. That is distinctly different. Revell was already importing existing kits into the US under the Robotech Defenders brand before Robotech tv show hit the air in all markets. To prevent Revell from going out of business, they entered into an agreement that allowed HG to share the license that both companies already had. Revell got their licenses from Takara and other Japanese model kit producers and sold those kits in the US.

HG got their license from Tatsunoko which was sorted out by the Japanese courts that Tatsunoko only has the rights to the animiation itself and nothing contained within the animation plus the merchandising rights to support the animation. The merchandising rights does not grant HG ownership over anything that is not owned by Tatsunoko, which is the story, character designs, mecha designs, etc... that are within the animation. Those rights belong to Studio Nue and Big West.

The point of contention between Revell and HG was the trademark for Robotech Defenders/Robotech Changers and Robotech since it led to brand confusion. Many people confused the two, as you did in your posts. The goal of the shared license was to allow Revell to keep selling already manufactured Japanese model kits, under the Robotech Defender name, at a profit while HG was able to use Revell's existing licenses to support Robotech through the importation of Japanese model kits under the Robotech name. This is a very, very common thing to do and one that FASA did with Twentieth Century Imports to support Battletech. If Revell and HG didn't agree to share their licenses then Revell would have lost a big revenue stream and HG would have lost the ability to have merchandise to support their tv show.

dal10, on 11 November 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

dude, they have whatever rights tatsunoko had, cept just in the US.

No, that is an incorrect statement. Tatsunoko only has the rights they own and cannot license something they do not own like the mecha designs, character designs, and storyline or anything contained within the animation. The Japanese court rulings of 2002 and 2006 plus the 2002 US ruling on the injunction against HG shows that the Japanese court rulings were upheld in a US court due to the treaty that the US and Japan are both signatories to. The treaty is the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. This treaty states that all signatories to it will use the appropriate copyright laws and rulings of the country where the work originated from.

HG can, and did at one time, claim they own all things Macross, but the 2002 US court ruling in the case of Big West v. HG was ruled in favor of Big West. Do you want to know why? The answer is simple. Big West walked into a US courtroom and presented the 2002 Japanese copyright ruling and the US judge had to accept it since the ruling stated who owned what. The US court granted an injunction against HG to prevent them further blocking Big West/Studio Nue and their Japanese merchandise licensees from importing into the US. HG quickly backed away from the position that they own all things Macross as evidenced by the release of Robotech Shadow Chronicles that utilizes new character designs for the original Macross characters and made derivatives of the mecha from Southern Cross and Mospeada. Tatsunoko wholly owns Mospeada and Southern Cross so they could license the rights to make derivatives to HG. They cannot, legally, license rights they, themselves, do not own i.e. the Macross character and mecha designs as well as anything contained within the animation.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 11 November 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[dal10]

how does that invalidate my answer. Tatsunoko doesn't have rights to the designs in macross, therefore neither does hg...

[James The Fox Dixon]

dal10, on 11 November 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

how does that invalidate my answer. Tatsunoko doesn't have rights to the designs in macross, therefore neither does hg...

You also stated, ",ecept just in the US." You infer that HG can do anything it wants within the US, contrary to the court rulings and copyright law. I was correcting that.

[dal10]

James The Fox Dixon, on 11 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

You also stated, ",ecept just in the US." You infer that HG can do anything it wants within the US, contrary to the court rulings and copyright law. I was correcting that.

i intended that meaning that it has whatever rights tatsunoko has but only in the us...

[Karyudo ds]

James The Fox Dixon, on 11 November 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

The YF-4 appeared in the music video Flashback 2012 directed by Shoji Kawamori. I do believe that HG doesn't have a proper license for anything from Flashback 2012.

They do not, nor do they have access to DYRL in which it also appeared and while I never noticed it in the original series I assume it appeared in the same way, as a desk model of the Fighter mode thus they could use the Fighter design but not the modes which never made it in. So it certainly seems they can make derivatives of the mech designs and have in the past as long as those designs were in the original series in some capacity.

Edited by Karyudo ds, 12 November 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Karyudo ds, on 12 November 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

They do not, nor do they have access to DYRL in which it also appeared and while I never noticed it in the original series I assume it appeared in the same way, as a desk model of the Fighter mode thus they could use the Fighter design but not the modes which never made it in. So it certainly seems they can make derivatives of the mech designs and have in the past as long as those designs were in the original series in some capacity.

It wasn't in SDF Macross, since it wasn't designed yet. If that was the case then why did HG change the looks of the characters from Macross to be completely different in Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles? Why did they make derivatives of the mechs from Mospeada Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles?

[dal10]

because they could?

[James The Fox Dixon]

dal10, on 12 November 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

because they could?

They could try, but all it takes is someone to tell Big West and Studio Nue about it then HG gets slapped again in court. I'm hoping that they do and put HG out of business for good.

[dal10]

i meant they didn't because they could...

[Karyudo ds]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 November 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

It wasn't in SDF Macross, since it wasn't designed yet. If that was the case then why did HG change the looks of the characters from Macross to be completely different in Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles? Why did they make derivatives of the mechs from Mospeada Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles?

Sort of looks like it was to me... specifically how I described it too.