36 replies to this topic

[Phytochrome]

So this is apparently a question on lots of peoples' minds, considering it's raised in the official FAQ. I understand that the original reason the Unseen were pulled was because they'd just been copied from various anime series, but why would this apply to mechs featured in MWO? All the mechs we've seen so far have been redesigned, so if there're any Valkyries/Warhammers/Marauders in the game, they'll obviously have new appearances which'll distinguish them from the original Macross/Dougram/whatever designs.

Considering this game is going to be set in 3048/9, it seems likely that many of these well-loved mechs will be included, albeit with updated and altered visual appearances.

[Darklord]

The way the unseen have been released and then pulled then release and pulled again anything is possible.

DL

[jojobear]

No Unseens would be due to Harmony Gold being the useless retards they are yet still evading bankruptcy through some unholy pact.

Here's the deal:
Harmony Gold owns the rights to the original SDF Macross TV show animation, the original SDF Macross TV show merchandising, and the Macross: Do You Remember Love merchandising. Due to this, they cannot use macross designs (Fokker, Minmei, various mecha, etc) unless it's recycled footage (animation rights), or new stuff created for videogames/toys/etc (merchandising rights).

HG bought these rights from Tatsunoko as part of the foreign distribution rights.

That above is the truth of the whole matter, despite what Harmony Gold may claim.

Now, HG asserts that what they bought from Tatsunoko was the rights to ALL macross designs for foreign use and that the now own them as part of Robotech. They are both right and wrong though. Tatsunoko did sell them these. However, Tatsunoko was successfully sued by Studio Nue and it was ruled that Tatsunoko did not have the authority to sell this to HG. The result was that Harmony gold only owns the very limited set of rights listed above.

Despite this, HG likes to legally bully anyone they feel is infringing on their copyrights (which aren't actually theirs, it's Studio Nue's). They count on the hope that their opponent won't have the funds to fight a legal battle. If it ever did go court over the Unseens, a good defense team would have it thrown out due to the fact that HG does not have the authority to bring a lawsuit (only Studio Nue can do that).


PGI is probably working on talks behind the scenes, or are working with IP lawyers to make the Unseens different enough. This is an area where nothing is certain, so they are keeping mum on the matter in case it falls through (which it very may well).

I don't believe the FAQ for one instant where is says HG had nothing to do with their decision. I think they are just legally covering their butts. The fact is that the 2009 trailer was pulled after a C&D from Harmony Gold and after that everything went dead for two years. I'll bet that scared off all the potential publishers (and understandably so).


Personally, I don't see how Harmony Gold still has money to afford lawyers. Do Robotech DVD collections and crappy cheap spinoffs make that much?

[Phytochrome]

Thanks for laying down such a detailed explanation, jojobear! To make sure I better understand the situation, would it be possible for HG to cause trouble even if the mechs in question (Warhammer, Griffin, etc) were totally new-for-MWO designs?

[Stahlseele]

Technically, they claim to own anything that looks even remotely like the Unseen Designs . .

[CobraFive]

We pretty much already have our answer.

The official battletech website posted a not clarifying that all unseen 'mechs are, once again, fully unseen, and can't be even discussed beyond names.

So we probably will see only "on the safe side".

[Stahlseele]

And IGP allready had a visit from the HG Lawyers with their Cease and Desist . .

[yingjanshi]

Personally I don't really care if the Unseen are in or not. Sure they awesome and the nostalgia factor. But there are plenty of 'Mechs to chose from:
http://bg.battletech...-readout-3039-2

[jojobear]

phytochrome, on 31 October 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

Thanks for laying down such a detailed explanation, jojobear! To make sure I better understand the situation, would it be possible for HG to cause trouble even if the mechs in question (Warhammer, Griffin, etc) were totally new-for-MWO designs?

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, so I'm only going off of what real IP lawyers have written and told me.

Technically no. Hamony Gold has very little legal standing due to Studio Nue's victory. They would have a solid case if someone was using SDF Macross footage or if someone was using SDF Macross / Macross: Do You Remember Love tidbits in a piece of merchandise. However, using mecha and character designs themselves (such as with the unmodified unseens) would infringe on the copyrights owned by Studio Nue.

In reality, Yes. Lawsuits in the united states (where HG is based) overwhelmingly favor the plaintiffs even in the most ridiculous of circumstances. Consider this. I want to sue you and I want to get a ruling in my favor. I'll sue you in a state with laws that will support a win for me. Furthermore, if I don't get a judge biased in my favor then I can just rescind the lawsuit and refile. I can do this as many times as I need in order to get the judge I want (this is exactly what millionaire mesothelioma lawyers do, and it works extremely well).

Technically, I have to sue you in the state/jurisdiction it's based. However, it's not my responsibility as the plaintiff to do this. It's the responsibility of the defense to file a motion with the judge to have it dismissed and force me to file in the correct jurisdiction. This costs you time and money while I sit back and wait for a response.

Then I can try to extort as much money out of you as possible during settlement negotiations by preying on your fear that a lawsuit will bankrupt you, either by losing to me or by me dragging out the suit and running up your legal costs.

You can motion to have the judge dismiss the lawsuit on grounds that a ruling in your favor is obvious. This will cost you time and a lawyer. I also have a chance to respond to the judge and refute the motion.

If we do actually go to court, it will be incredibly expensive for you. Also, the plaintiff lawyers will use every dirty trick in the book to dismantle every legal defense your lawyers can mount. They're the defense lawyers, so they naturally start with the disadvantage of being on the defensive.

When' all is said and done, you may have won. However, your finances have been destroyed, your project has stalled, and your shareholders are ******.

[gregsolidus]

See kids,this is what happens when you steal things.

[jojobear]

cobrafive, on 31 October 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

The official battletech website posted a not clarifying that all unseen 'mechs are, once again, fully unseen, and can't be even discussed beyond names.

This is for the Classic Battletech tabletop game. They actually went 5 steps further and purged everything that was not done in-house, including everything done on commission. Catalyst Games had a horrible embezzlement affair that nearly bankrupted them and they totally botched the handling of it. They are currently barely financially stable. This was probably done as a safety measure as they just cannot afford to defend themselves from even the most frivolous lawsuit.


My understanding is that PG now has control of "Mechwarrior" with certain microsoft restrictions in place. They can make insert any mech they want, and any legal IP repercussions are their problem to deal with. For an example, see the non-canon mech that microsoft added to MechAssault. Many of the unseens were featured in MW1 and MW2, so they fall under the Mechwarrior IP anyway regardless of what happens with Classic Battletech.

[shd0hwk]

Yeah, well..as a LONG time player of Battletech (Since it was actually BattleDroids), and having played everything from Locusts to Warhammers, Marauders to Phawks, whether HG likes it or not, I will continue to play the "Unseens"...though they may not look like the originals.
When HG sued Fasa, (and I could be wrong about this, please don't be afraid to add input if I am to set the record strait), HG was fine with everything until some Lawyer in the US started giving them the whole "But they are impinging on your rights!" to HG...prompting them to sue. Granted, a few of the mechs (Valkyrie, PhoenixHawk, Warhammer, Stinger, Locust, et cetera) were direct rip offs (As were LAM's, which are lame anyway), so I could understand the issue with the visuals, but the loadouts...well...
The big thing we saw years ago was Project Phoenix, which redesigned the "Unseens" so they would be more along the Battletech, and not Macross, lines. The visual changes were nice (for the most part), and I would dare say, enough to warrant them being seen again.

[Project Dark Fox]

Yeah, we could see the reseen models. I wouldn't mind the new Marauder, Warhammer, and BattleMaster appearances if they make it in.

[CobraFive]

project dark fox, on 31 October 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

Yeah, we could see the reseen models. I wouldn't mind the new Marauder, Warhammer, and BattleMaster appearances if they make it in.

I'm all for this. Besides the Marauder, I think most of the unseens are kinda dumb looking anyway (Especially when they HOLD the guns).

[jojobear]

In summary, PG could totally use the Unseens in their original forms. Nothing stopping them except for a C&D from Studio Nue (who really doesn't care and hates HG with a passion).

However, they would have to be prepared to contest HG's frivolous claim. That's the 64-thousand dollar question here.

Will PG bother to deal with HG?


At this point it's up in the air and behind the closed doors of lawyer meetings. A "yes" or "no" to this question could come at any time and be based on any number of factors.

[scolopendra]

jojobear, on 31 October 2011 - 04:39 PM, said:

This is for the Classic Battletech tabletop game. They actually went 5 steps further and purged everything that was not done in-house, including everything done on commission. Catalyst Games had a horrible embezzlement affair that nearly bankrupted them and they totally botched the handling of it. They are currently barely financially stable. This was probably done as a safety measure as they just cannot afford to defend themselves from even the most frivolous lawsuit.


My understanding is that PG now has control of "Mechwarrior" with certain microsoft restrictions in place. They can make insert any mech they want, and any legal IP repercussions are their problem to deal with. For an example, see the non-canon mech that microsoft added to MechAssault. Many of the unseens were featured in MW1 and MW2, so they fall under the Mechwarrior IP anyway regardless of what happens with Classic Battletech.

That's the Unseen. The Reseen are fine (note that the Reseen Battlemaster is still the logo, and the Warhammer in the teaser vid was Reseen).

[Rodney28021]

You would think Catalyst or Topps or Whomever really owns the Battletech universe would buy out Harmony Gold.

[Frostiken]

Yes. Your reasons would be:

1) The mess with the MW5 trailer.

2) We haven't seen any of them.

[Deathz Jester]

HEY COOL ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT UNSEEN/RESEEN?!



But really, I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you haven't noticed, The mechs that have been designed so far, have their own style, the "IGP" style if you will. Example: I dont remember the centurion looking that cool, instead of the blocky boring generic look of the original. All the mechs while pretty much identical, have a newer, better style. So I do fully expect at some point (when the game has well established itself) that the so called "unseen" will be implemented with an "IGP" style.

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 15 June 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Hayden]

Yeah... history suggests a resounding "NO".

ED: But...

http://mwomercs.com/media/videos/

2nd column, 5th row. On the PGI website.

Edited by Hayden, 15 June 2012 - 01:32 PM.