So when we can start planing where to drop in later stages of CW, I was thinking (dangerous, I know) of a new map design that requires a lot of planning and tactics other then bang-bang pew-pew.
Not all planets have an atmosphere, right? Just because a planet doesn't have an atmosphere, doesn't mean it wouldn't have military significance as a staging post or refueling station or whatever.
So battles could be fought for these prized locations. But with no atmosphere, there is no heat dissipation (going with the assumption that Mech's cooling systems work by conduction and convection). Therein lies the dilemma. Mechs can still cool slowly by radiating heat.
So throughout the map are cooling stations (or something) that are capture points where pilots can cool their mechs before reengaging. You'd think the battle long and tedious when you can only fire off a few shots between stations, however, go in with the mindset to capture points to win, instead of ruthlessly engaging until death.
This is a really rough concept I know. I'm posting it here for discussion.
"omg more over-heat maps *cry cry cry* I want to PPC boat again" comments not allowed, please.
2
(Another) Map Suggestion
Started by PhyroPhyre, Oct 17 2013 05:36 PM
14 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:53 PM
1. moonmap with shadows that allow for cooling (like water with a different texture and no sound
2. orbital platform map with cooling vents instead of water
3. more snow/ice maps
4. a map that has an over and underground: city/sewer system like Solaris VII
2. orbital platform map with cooling vents instead of water
3. more snow/ice maps
4. a map that has an over and underground: city/sewer system like Solaris VII
#3
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:49 AM
gavilatius, on 17 October 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:
4. a map that has an over and underground: city/sewer system like Solaris VII
Or a network of tunnels like the Defiiance-works on Hesperus II or the Ishiyama-arena on Solaris VII...
X3kutor, on 17 October 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:
So throughout the map are cooling stations (or something) that are capture points where pilots can cool their mechs before reengaging. You'd think the battle long and tedious when you can only fire off a few shots between stations, however, go in with the mindset to capture points to win, instead of ruthlessly engaging until death.
Won't work. A Mech easily overheats in the "heat" of battle, even more so when the heat-sinks can't work properly.
A Mech would only be able to fire one or to large salvos (takes 20 seconds), then he would have to retreat to the nearest cooling-station (takes 1 minute), then march back into battle (takes 1 minute), and then it starts all over.
#4
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:06 AM
Voted "might work", however, some details of what you proposed, X3kutor, are somewhat arguable. In particular, "cooling stations" - this could be very difficult to implement so it'd be intuitive enough for players to easily and properly use. Could also create crowding. And what about air/bomb strikes dropped on packs of mechs in such stations?
What i would do instead - is this: i'd make such maps to be on some planets which are far enough from their star to be very cold - and thus to have its own athmosphere totally liquified. This, among other things, would explain close-to-normal gravity yet absense of any noticeable athmosphere. The map would then have "ponds" and "rivers" of liquid oxygen and nitrogen, some parts of it - possibly even "lakes" and parts of "seas" of these liquified gases. Being extremely cold and heat-conductive, these liquids would be extremely very effective (say, 500 times faster than numbers i calculate below for "radiative only" cooling) in cooling any mech which steps into these "cryogenic liquids". Kind of like water, but MUCH more efficient because it's cryogenic (VERY cold).
However, getting into would also damage 'mech legs' structure at quite fast pace (say, 5% of max "health" points of legs' structure per second) whenever a mech has its legs within cryogenic liquid. This is due to extremely low temperature of cryogenic ponds rendering metals fragile, oils frozen, components damaged, mechanisms stuck. So, basically, 20 seconds inside cryogenic liquid - continuous or in a few separate occasions cumulatively, - and mech's legs are so "biten" by extreme cold that they fail to operate anymore and thus are in effect destroyed. Oh, and if possible, it'd be neat to make Betty to say something like "cryogenic leg damage detected" whenever one enters cryogenic liquid for more than 0.5 seconds.
Now THAT could create some very, very interesting maps to play, provided such ponds/rivers/lakes are abundant in some places, but are scarce/absent in others. So, lights will be able to pass across MUCH wider "cryogenic river/lake" areas without taking much damage to their legs, while assaults will need to think very carefully where they are going, can they get across at all - or not, - and is it worth it to go across and take possibly high leg damage. Mediums/heavies would be in-between, with much depending on how good engine they have, and if they got jump jets. Neat! Some areas of the map could even be made _completely_ unreachable by most of slow assaults and slow heavies - they'd have their legs destroyed before they'd reach "the other side". While quick lights could go there with only little damage taken due to their high speed - and even very little or none leg damage if they use jump jets. Such areas would be good for lighter-weight 'mech to combat each other there, also possibly for flanking, sniping, and retreating there from main enemy forces.
And, of course, quick "in and out" into some cryogenic pond/river/lake would allow to drop most of mech's heat in no time, at the price of taking some leg damage. But in areas with few/scarce ponds/rivers, locations with those "cooling stations" of a sort, - could indeed be very strategic and/or dangerous (if at exposed terrain easily shot through from most directions). Nearly endless map design possibilities!
Now to physics of it. You said, "Mechs can still cool slowly by radiating heat". This one is basically correct indeed. But me, i'd like to see a bit or real physics implemented here - because this is a case when realistic (and quite simple) physic process can make mightily interesting gameplay effect together with the above "cryonic lakes" thing.
Namely, as nearly anyone knows, one fact of life is that the hotter a hot body is, the faster it cools down. For example, it takes just a few minutes for a boiling-hot cup of coffee to cool down to tolerable temperature (which is some ~40 degrees celcius drop of temperature), but it takes 10+ minutes for it to cool down to room temperature after that (another ~40 degrees celcius drop). Without athmosphere, though (i.e. no convection, when loss of heat occurs only through radiating it out) - this difference intensifies: physics say, amount of heat radiated is proportional to 4th power of temperature difference between hot body and its environment.
Now, assuming that
- it's open space (trace/no athmosphere), and surface/cryonic_ponds (environment) temperature is at nearly -200 degrees celcius - so oxygen and nitrogen are both existing only in liquid form on the surface, and
- heatsinks of a mech are at, say, 800 degrees celcius by the time overheating shutdown is imminent, and
- we translate heat% of a mech as directly proportional to difference between heatsinks' temperature and environment temperature (so, 100% heat = 1000 degrees C difference in this case; and yes, nice round 1000 for the difference - is the reason i take 800C in particular as 100%), and
- some "typical" cooling efficiency setup (say, 15 total double heatsinks) is able to cool down from 100% to 90% heat in, say, 10 seconds while standing out of cryonic pools of liquified gases, i.e. on "dry" land, by slowly radiating heat into (airless) space:
then, using mentioned above "amount of heat radiated out is proportional to 4th power of temperature difference", and omitting simplified math for each case (i did it this way: for cooling from 90% to 80%: 10s * (1000^4 / 900^4) = 15.241579 seconds, for cooling from 80% to 70%: 10s * (1000^4 / 800^4) = 24.4140625, etc), we get:
- cooling from 100% to 90%, i.e. from 800C to 700C: 10 seconds;
- cooling from 90% to 80%, i.e. from 700C to 600C: ~15.2 seconds;
- cooling from 80% to 70%, i.e. from 600C to 500C: ~24.4 seconds;
- cooling from 70% to 60%, i.e. from 500C to 400C: ~41.65 seconds;
- cooling from 60% to 50%, i.e. from 400C to 300C: ~77.16 seconds;
- cooling from 50% to 40%, i.e. from 300C to 200C: ~160.0 seconds;
- cooling from 40% to 30%, i.e. from 200C to 100C: ~390.625 seconds;
- cooling from 30% to 20%, i.e. from 100C to 0C: ~1234.57 seconds;
- cooling from 20% to 10%, i.e. from 0C to -100C: ~6250 seconds;
- cooling from 10% to 1%, i.e. from -100C to -190C: ~100000 seconds;
- cooling from 1% to 0%, i.e. from -190C to -200C: ~infinity (well, very astronomically large time, that is).
in fact, a mech in described conditions would NOT want to cool any much below 0 degres C, 'cause it makes mechanisms stuck and fail; but of course, reactor power could be used to keep core elements warm. Legs, however, - if bathed in cryogenic liquid, - would be freezing very fast; when i lived in Siberia, we sometimes had colder than -50 degrees C temperature during winter times, - and indeed, when it's below -50C, metals become VERY fragile, to the point that nearly all vehicles are stopped to be used, - because otherwise, wheels literally fall off on big bumps on a road, springs break, shocks fail, engines get broken upon start sequence, etc. Besides, everybody probably have seen what happens to things submerged into liquid nitrogen? Yep, most things get frozen in a few seconds, and become very fragile - like glass. Including metals. And i don't think 'mech can walk on a glass legs, yes?
The other effect of cryogenic liquids, - nearly instant massive drop of mech's heat, - is in agreement with numbers above. If, like suggested above, cooling times are divided by 500 while within cryogenic liquids, then the "table" above "transforms" into this (shortened it, too):
- cooling from 100% to 90%: 0.02 seconds;
- cooling from 90% to 80%: ~0.03 seconds;
- cooling from 80% to 70%: ~0.05 seconds;
- cooling from 70% to 60%: ~0.08 seconds;
- cooling from 60% to 50%: ~0.15 seconds;
- cooling from 50% to 40%: ~0.32 seconds;
- cooling from 40% to 30%: ~0.78 seconds;
- cooling from 30% to 20%: ~2.47 seconds;
- cooling from 20% to 10%: ~12.5 seconds;
- cooling from 10% to 1%: ~200 seconds;
- cooling from 1% to 0%: still, ~infinity (well, very astronomically large, that is).
Oh, and of course, displayed to the pilot heat % could be adjusted, so that displayed 0% heat would correspond to the described above state of "0 degrees C, reactor maintaining tolerable temperature of all vital parts" - i.e., displayed heat of 0% would correspond to "physical" 20% heat in tables above. And then, the following will be true in terms of heat meter displayed to the mech pilot:
- let's say a mech is at 90% (displayed) heat and then it enters cryogenic liquid for just 1 second. It then would go from 90% (displayed) heat to ~15% heat. In just one second. But it'd cost 5% of leg structure, of course.
- let's say a master pilot who also has 90% heat - inters cryogenic liquid so briefly and precisely that he hits it, but only for 0.2 of a second. Would take VERY fine control of a mech to do so reliably. The effect is still significant - he'd go from 90% heat to ~50% heat in just 0.2 seconds, and it'd "cost" him only 1% of leg structure.
But, should a pilot try to _stay_ within the liquid, and, say, abuse ER PPCs fire or something like that with nearly "instant" cooling cryonic liquid would provide, - then, like said above, his legs would be gone - destroyed, - quite fast: 5% structure points per second - means it'd take 20 seconds to get both legs structure destroyed (which currently destroyes the mech itself). And, i don't think he'd do oh so much damage in just 20 seconds.
Note, i suggest armor to remain undamaged by cryogenic liquids - after all, armor is hardened metal, and it's not a moving part. Plus, this would still provide protection for legs in case of enemy fire even if a pilot took some structure damage by crossing cryonic river/lake.
P.S. And it's possible to create mightily neat graphic effect for whenever "hot" mech enters a cryonic pond/river/lake/sea: namely, large clouds of evaporated and then quickly condensated to fog nitrogen/oxygen, going out all around the mech, creating some trouble to see through such clouds - for both the mech's pilot and for any enemies who could be trying to hit him. And with the sound somewhat similar to the sound water makes when one drops it onto glowing-red, hot metal, too - you know, violently boiling cryogenic gases, taking all that heat outta mech's legs. It could be so cool! PGI, can we get this, please? Pretty, pretty please???
P.P.S. For cooling from 30% to 20%, more precisely put result - is 1234.5679012345679 - this is an amazing number! %) You can check yourself in windows calc: switch to "engineer's mode", then calculate it by typing in "300", then press " x^y " button, then type in "4", then press " = " button, then press " 1/x " button, then press " * " button, then type in "10000000000000" (this is 1000^4 * 10), then hit " = " button, and you'll see it this quite beautiful number - it has "567901234" group after decimal repeating itself infinitely! Wow. ^^
What i would do instead - is this: i'd make such maps to be on some planets which are far enough from their star to be very cold - and thus to have its own athmosphere totally liquified. This, among other things, would explain close-to-normal gravity yet absense of any noticeable athmosphere. The map would then have "ponds" and "rivers" of liquid oxygen and nitrogen, some parts of it - possibly even "lakes" and parts of "seas" of these liquified gases. Being extremely cold and heat-conductive, these liquids would be extremely very effective (say, 500 times faster than numbers i calculate below for "radiative only" cooling) in cooling any mech which steps into these "cryogenic liquids". Kind of like water, but MUCH more efficient because it's cryogenic (VERY cold).
However, getting into would also damage 'mech legs' structure at quite fast pace (say, 5% of max "health" points of legs' structure per second) whenever a mech has its legs within cryogenic liquid. This is due to extremely low temperature of cryogenic ponds rendering metals fragile, oils frozen, components damaged, mechanisms stuck. So, basically, 20 seconds inside cryogenic liquid - continuous or in a few separate occasions cumulatively, - and mech's legs are so "biten" by extreme cold that they fail to operate anymore and thus are in effect destroyed. Oh, and if possible, it'd be neat to make Betty to say something like "cryogenic leg damage detected" whenever one enters cryogenic liquid for more than 0.5 seconds.
Now THAT could create some very, very interesting maps to play, provided such ponds/rivers/lakes are abundant in some places, but are scarce/absent in others. So, lights will be able to pass across MUCH wider "cryogenic river/lake" areas without taking much damage to their legs, while assaults will need to think very carefully where they are going, can they get across at all - or not, - and is it worth it to go across and take possibly high leg damage. Mediums/heavies would be in-between, with much depending on how good engine they have, and if they got jump jets. Neat! Some areas of the map could even be made _completely_ unreachable by most of slow assaults and slow heavies - they'd have their legs destroyed before they'd reach "the other side". While quick lights could go there with only little damage taken due to their high speed - and even very little or none leg damage if they use jump jets. Such areas would be good for lighter-weight 'mech to combat each other there, also possibly for flanking, sniping, and retreating there from main enemy forces.
And, of course, quick "in and out" into some cryogenic pond/river/lake would allow to drop most of mech's heat in no time, at the price of taking some leg damage. But in areas with few/scarce ponds/rivers, locations with those "cooling stations" of a sort, - could indeed be very strategic and/or dangerous (if at exposed terrain easily shot through from most directions). Nearly endless map design possibilities!
Now to physics of it. You said, "Mechs can still cool slowly by radiating heat". This one is basically correct indeed. But me, i'd like to see a bit or real physics implemented here - because this is a case when realistic (and quite simple) physic process can make mightily interesting gameplay effect together with the above "cryonic lakes" thing.
Namely, as nearly anyone knows, one fact of life is that the hotter a hot body is, the faster it cools down. For example, it takes just a few minutes for a boiling-hot cup of coffee to cool down to tolerable temperature (which is some ~40 degrees celcius drop of temperature), but it takes 10+ minutes for it to cool down to room temperature after that (another ~40 degrees celcius drop). Without athmosphere, though (i.e. no convection, when loss of heat occurs only through radiating it out) - this difference intensifies: physics say, amount of heat radiated is proportional to 4th power of temperature difference between hot body and its environment.
Now, assuming that
- it's open space (trace/no athmosphere), and surface/cryonic_ponds (environment) temperature is at nearly -200 degrees celcius - so oxygen and nitrogen are both existing only in liquid form on the surface, and
- heatsinks of a mech are at, say, 800 degrees celcius by the time overheating shutdown is imminent, and
- we translate heat% of a mech as directly proportional to difference between heatsinks' temperature and environment temperature (so, 100% heat = 1000 degrees C difference in this case; and yes, nice round 1000 for the difference - is the reason i take 800C in particular as 100%), and
- some "typical" cooling efficiency setup (say, 15 total double heatsinks) is able to cool down from 100% to 90% heat in, say, 10 seconds while standing out of cryonic pools of liquified gases, i.e. on "dry" land, by slowly radiating heat into (airless) space:
then, using mentioned above "amount of heat radiated out is proportional to 4th power of temperature difference", and omitting simplified math for each case (i did it this way: for cooling from 90% to 80%: 10s * (1000^4 / 900^4) = 15.241579 seconds, for cooling from 80% to 70%: 10s * (1000^4 / 800^4) = 24.4140625, etc), we get:
- cooling from 100% to 90%, i.e. from 800C to 700C: 10 seconds;
- cooling from 90% to 80%, i.e. from 700C to 600C: ~15.2 seconds;
- cooling from 80% to 70%, i.e. from 600C to 500C: ~24.4 seconds;
- cooling from 70% to 60%, i.e. from 500C to 400C: ~41.65 seconds;
- cooling from 60% to 50%, i.e. from 400C to 300C: ~77.16 seconds;
- cooling from 50% to 40%, i.e. from 300C to 200C: ~160.0 seconds;
- cooling from 40% to 30%, i.e. from 200C to 100C: ~390.625 seconds;
- cooling from 30% to 20%, i.e. from 100C to 0C: ~1234.57 seconds;
- cooling from 20% to 10%, i.e. from 0C to -100C: ~6250 seconds;
- cooling from 10% to 1%, i.e. from -100C to -190C: ~100000 seconds;
- cooling from 1% to 0%, i.e. from -190C to -200C: ~infinity (well, very astronomically large time, that is).
in fact, a mech in described conditions would NOT want to cool any much below 0 degres C, 'cause it makes mechanisms stuck and fail; but of course, reactor power could be used to keep core elements warm. Legs, however, - if bathed in cryogenic liquid, - would be freezing very fast; when i lived in Siberia, we sometimes had colder than -50 degrees C temperature during winter times, - and indeed, when it's below -50C, metals become VERY fragile, to the point that nearly all vehicles are stopped to be used, - because otherwise, wheels literally fall off on big bumps on a road, springs break, shocks fail, engines get broken upon start sequence, etc. Besides, everybody probably have seen what happens to things submerged into liquid nitrogen? Yep, most things get frozen in a few seconds, and become very fragile - like glass. Including metals. And i don't think 'mech can walk on a glass legs, yes?
The other effect of cryogenic liquids, - nearly instant massive drop of mech's heat, - is in agreement with numbers above. If, like suggested above, cooling times are divided by 500 while within cryogenic liquids, then the "table" above "transforms" into this (shortened it, too):
- cooling from 100% to 90%: 0.02 seconds;
- cooling from 90% to 80%: ~0.03 seconds;
- cooling from 80% to 70%: ~0.05 seconds;
- cooling from 70% to 60%: ~0.08 seconds;
- cooling from 60% to 50%: ~0.15 seconds;
- cooling from 50% to 40%: ~0.32 seconds;
- cooling from 40% to 30%: ~0.78 seconds;
- cooling from 30% to 20%: ~2.47 seconds;
- cooling from 20% to 10%: ~12.5 seconds;
- cooling from 10% to 1%: ~200 seconds;
- cooling from 1% to 0%: still, ~infinity (well, very astronomically large, that is).
Oh, and of course, displayed to the pilot heat % could be adjusted, so that displayed 0% heat would correspond to the described above state of "0 degrees C, reactor maintaining tolerable temperature of all vital parts" - i.e., displayed heat of 0% would correspond to "physical" 20% heat in tables above. And then, the following will be true in terms of heat meter displayed to the mech pilot:
- let's say a mech is at 90% (displayed) heat and then it enters cryogenic liquid for just 1 second. It then would go from 90% (displayed) heat to ~15% heat. In just one second. But it'd cost 5% of leg structure, of course.
- let's say a master pilot who also has 90% heat - inters cryogenic liquid so briefly and precisely that he hits it, but only for 0.2 of a second. Would take VERY fine control of a mech to do so reliably. The effect is still significant - he'd go from 90% heat to ~50% heat in just 0.2 seconds, and it'd "cost" him only 1% of leg structure.
But, should a pilot try to _stay_ within the liquid, and, say, abuse ER PPCs fire or something like that with nearly "instant" cooling cryonic liquid would provide, - then, like said above, his legs would be gone - destroyed, - quite fast: 5% structure points per second - means it'd take 20 seconds to get both legs structure destroyed (which currently destroyes the mech itself). And, i don't think he'd do oh so much damage in just 20 seconds.
Note, i suggest armor to remain undamaged by cryogenic liquids - after all, armor is hardened metal, and it's not a moving part. Plus, this would still provide protection for legs in case of enemy fire even if a pilot took some structure damage by crossing cryonic river/lake.
P.S. And it's possible to create mightily neat graphic effect for whenever "hot" mech enters a cryonic pond/river/lake/sea: namely, large clouds of evaporated and then quickly condensated to fog nitrogen/oxygen, going out all around the mech, creating some trouble to see through such clouds - for both the mech's pilot and for any enemies who could be trying to hit him. And with the sound somewhat similar to the sound water makes when one drops it onto glowing-red, hot metal, too - you know, violently boiling cryogenic gases, taking all that heat outta mech's legs. It could be so cool! PGI, can we get this, please? Pretty, pretty please???
P.P.S. For cooling from 30% to 20%, more precisely put result - is 1234.5679012345679 - this is an amazing number! %) You can check yourself in windows calc: switch to "engineer's mode", then calculate it by typing in "300", then press " x^y " button, then type in "4", then press " = " button, then press " 1/x " button, then press " * " button, then type in "10000000000000" (this is 1000^4 * 10), then hit " = " button, and you'll see it this quite beautiful number - it has "567901234" group after decimal repeating itself infinitely! Wow. ^^
Edited by FinsT, 18 October 2013 - 04:27 AM.
#5
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:21 AM
X3kutor, on 17 October 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:
So when we can start planing where to drop in later stages of CW, I was thinking (dangerous, I know) of a new map design that requires a lot of planning and tactics other then bang-bang pew-pew.
Not all planets have an atmosphere, right? Just because a planet doesn't have an atmosphere, doesn't mean it wouldn't have military significance as a staging post or refueling station or whatever.
So battles could be fought for these prized locations. But with no atmosphere, there is no heat dissipation (going with the assumption that Mech's cooling systems work by conduction and convection). Therein lies the dilemma. Mechs can still cool slowly by radiating heat.
So throughout the map are cooling stations (or something) that are capture points where pilots can cool their mechs before reengaging. You'd think the battle long and tedious when you can only fire off a few shots between stations, however, go in with the mindset to capture points to win, instead of ruthlessly engaging until death.
This is a really rough concept I know. I'm posting it here for discussion.
"omg more over-heat maps *cry cry cry* I want to PPC boat again" comments not allowed, please.
Not all planets have an atmosphere, right? Just because a planet doesn't have an atmosphere, doesn't mean it wouldn't have military significance as a staging post or refueling station or whatever.
So battles could be fought for these prized locations. But with no atmosphere, there is no heat dissipation (going with the assumption that Mech's cooling systems work by conduction and convection). Therein lies the dilemma. Mechs can still cool slowly by radiating heat.
So throughout the map are cooling stations (or something) that are capture points where pilots can cool their mechs before reengaging. You'd think the battle long and tedious when you can only fire off a few shots between stations, however, go in with the mindset to capture points to win, instead of ruthlessly engaging until death.
This is a really rough concept I know. I'm posting it here for discussion.
"omg more over-heat maps *cry cry cry* I want to PPC boat again" comments not allowed, please.
In space, or on a planet with no atmosphere, the sunny side will be 200deg + and the shadow side will be 200deg - yes heat is still radiated away through the heatsinks, just like the one on top of your CPU. Moving air only helps this process... or walking away. So a mech standing in shadow would cool quickly but would be a huge blob on thermal vision and a mech walking through shadow would have a heat trail leading right to it. Moving mechs out of the shadows would run at... what.... 50% heat with a 50% reduction in cooling abilities. It would be an interesting map to learn to play on, until you suffer a headshot that is and you are exposed to the outside environment. Then you're just scrambled eggs.
#6
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:18 AM
Randalf Yorgen, on 18 October 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:
In space, or on a planet with no atmosphere, the sunny side will be 200deg + and the shadow side will be 200deg - ...
Totally dependant on orbital parameters of the planet and some of its features. Like,
- a planet some ~billion miles away from a (typical) star - would never have anything much higher than MINUS 200 celcius even on its sunlight side (which is the case with Pluto in our own solar system);
- a planet with no athmosphere which side tide-locked to its star (i.e. always facing the star with the same hemisphere), or simple with very long "day" (hundreds hours) - can get mightily hot on its sunlit side, while in the same time being below MINUS 200 on its night side (which is the case with our Mercury);
- a plnet with no athmosphere which is rotating very fast - i.e. a "day" being few hours, if not minutes, - will have nearly same temperature all around, since things won't have time to chill down nor to heat up any significantly, going from sunlit to night state that often;
- a planet with especially large and thick rings, placed in such a manner they create shadow for much of the planet, - can have all sorts of weird temperature variations, depends on how the axis of the planet (and thus its rings) are orientated in relation to the star;
- a planet with very radioactive heavy core and thus high surface radioactivity and intense tectonic activity - could be hot regardless of how far it is from its star.
Basically, universe is silly about this sort of staff. Could be almost any imaginable combination; and if we would add double-trible-quadriple star systems (planets in which are apparently possible), - that's completely nuts.
Edited by FinsT, 18 October 2013 - 05:19 AM.
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:31 AM
it needs more work, and a Dev, to kick it off to a team for more detailed ideas and review.
#8
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:36 AM
FinsT, on 18 October 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:
What i would do instead - is this: i'd make such maps to be on some planets which are far enough from their star to be very cold - and thus to have its own athmosphere totally liquified. This, among other things, would explain close-to-normal gravity yet absense of any noticeable athmosphere. The map would then have "ponds" and "rivers" of liquid oxygen and nitrogen, some parts of it - possibly even "lakes" and parts of "seas" of these liquified gases. Being extremely cold and heat-conductive, these liquids would be extremely very effective (say, 500 times faster than numbers i calculate below for "radiative only" cooling) in cooling any mech which steps into these "cryogenic liquids". Kind of like water, but MUCH more efficient because it's cryogenic (VERY cold).
Your forgot thermal expansion: If you cool something down to such low temperatures and do it uneven, it will twist bend and shatter within seconds. And we are not even talking about moving parts.
Easy experiment: Bring water to boil. Take a drinking-glass at room-temperature. Pour in the boiling water. The glass will shatter within seconds. Your heat-sinks will shatter the same way.
Electronics, e.g. in a leg, also don't like being twisted and bended.
Not to mention grease turning hard, frostbite killing myomer-muscles...
#9
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:55 AM
Didn't forget; but simply had trouble seeing how it could be introduced as a source of interesting in-game mechanic, you see. But, yep, you're right. And the more the initial temperature difference is, the more dramatic is the effect. Faster and mmore shuttering.
I kind of imagine that 'mech do have lots of protection; like, electronics in legs (and elsewhere) are well thermal-insulated, metals and matherials with very low or practically zero thermal expansion rate - are used where and as appropriate (helps when being fried up by laser fire, too! ), etc.
But when it's soo powerful source of cold - liquid oxygen/nitrogen, - and in vast amounts too, - then through all the insulation, through all the protection, it will get to weight-bearing parts of legs, and moving parts directly attached to those. Because to bear the weight, direct contact - and through large surface, - of all weight-bearing parts - is required. Through such well-pressed to each other surfaces, that extreme cold with get to moving parts and - inevitably indeed, - grease. Mode of functioning will change. Stress will much increase in some places. And with each step (which is quite a shake down there in legs, as it's even clearly audible when we "walk"), increasingly brittle moving parts will start to break. Damage.
That's how i'd imagine it. Not that i'm perfect with physics, so i could possibly see some things wrong, too. But i hope in general it's how it'd happen.
For the sake of game's simplicity and balance, simple linear 5% structure per second was proposed, - and cumulative even over many very short "submerges", too. Not exactly realistic, but i guess it's better this way.
I kind of imagine that 'mech do have lots of protection; like, electronics in legs (and elsewhere) are well thermal-insulated, metals and matherials with very low or practically zero thermal expansion rate - are used where and as appropriate (helps when being fried up by laser fire, too!
), etc.But when it's soo powerful source of cold - liquid oxygen/nitrogen, - and in vast amounts too, - then through all the insulation, through all the protection, it will get to weight-bearing parts of legs, and moving parts directly attached to those. Because to bear the weight, direct contact - and through large surface, - of all weight-bearing parts - is required. Through such well-pressed to each other surfaces, that extreme cold with get to moving parts and - inevitably indeed, - grease. Mode of functioning will change. Stress will much increase in some places. And with each step (which is quite a shake down there in legs, as it's even clearly audible when we "walk"), increasingly brittle moving parts will start to break. Damage.
That's how i'd imagine it. Not that i'm perfect with physics, so i could possibly see some things wrong, too. But i hope in general it's how it'd happen.
For the sake of game's simplicity and balance, simple linear 5% structure per second was proposed, - and cumulative even over many very short "submerges", too. Not exactly realistic, but i guess it's better this way.
Edited by FinsT, 18 October 2013 - 05:56 AM.
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:44 AM
OOOOOOH. I forgot something!
I once stood next to a hose transporting liquid nitrogen. It was frozen solid and burst for some reason. The area around the crack was immediately covered in ice-cold fog and snow.
-> Standing in a liquid-nitrogen-river would create a lot of fog, clogging your eyesight and giving away your position.
I once stood next to a hose transporting liquid nitrogen. It was frozen solid and burst for some reason. The area around the crack was immediately covered in ice-cold fog and snow.
-> Standing in a liquid-nitrogen-river would create a lot of fog, clogging your eyesight and giving away your position.
#11
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:55 PM
However, again, i didn't forget this one, too; it's described in "P.S." of the big post above (1st post i made in this topic). As i said there, it also would make targeting the mech "inside" the cloud difficult, especially particular parts. Limited visibility! But, yes, indeed, it'd give away mech's position too, of course. Both would be neat effects i think.
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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:17 AM
gavilatius, on 17 October 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:
1. moonmap with shadows that allow for cooling (like water with a different texture and no sound
2. orbital platform map with cooling vents instead of water
3. more snow/ice maps
4. a map that has an over and underground: city/sewer system like Solaris VII
2. orbital platform map with cooling vents instead of water
3. more snow/ice maps
4. a map that has an over and underground: city/sewer system like Solaris VII
Good ideas. I like the idea of the orbital platform, not fighting on a planet at all is cool. Could also be low gravity so JJ mechs could go even higher.
DI3T3R, on 18 October 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:
Won't work. A Mech easily overheats in the "heat" of battle, even more so when the heat-sinks can't work properly.
A Mech would only be able to fire one or to large salvos (takes 20 seconds), then he would have to retreat to the nearest cooling-station (takes 1 minute), then march back into battle (takes 1 minute), and then it starts all over.
That's the idea. Using strategy to avoid over heating. MG's would be king!
FinsT, on 18 October 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:
Voted "might work", however, some details of what you proposed, X3kutor, are somewhat arguable. In particular, "cooling stations" - this could be very difficult to implement so it'd be intuitive enough for players to easily and properly use. Could also create crowding. And what about air/bomb strikes dropped on packs of mechs in such stations?
Yeah's there's holes in the idea. What I need you for
FinsT, on 18 October 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:
What i would do instead - is this: i'd make such maps to be on some planets which are far enough from their star to be very cold - and thus to have its own athmosphere totally liquified. This, among other things, would explain close-to-normal gravity yet absense of any noticeable athmosphere. The map would then have "ponds" and "rivers" of liquid oxygen and nitrogen, some parts of it - possibly even "lakes" and parts of "seas" of these liquified gases. Being extremely cold and heat-conductive, these liquids would be extremely very effective (say, 500 times faster than numbers i calculate below for "radiative only" cooling) in cooling any mech which steps into these "cryogenic liquids". Kind of like water, but MUCH more efficient because it's cryogenic (VERY cold).
Can there be a liquid environment without an atmosphere? Doesn't one make the other? i dunno my physics is rusty haha
FinsT, on 18 October 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:
Now, assuming that
- it's open space (trace/no athmosphere), and surface/cryonic_ponds (environment) temperature is at nearly -200 degrees celcius - so oxygen and nitrogen are both existing only in liquid form on the surface, and
- heatsinks of a mech are at, say, 800 degrees celcius by the time overheating shutdown is imminent, and
- we translate heat% of a mech as directly proportional to difference between heatsinks' temperature and environment temperature (so, 100% heat = 1000 degrees C difference in this case; and yes, nice round 1000 for the difference - is the reason i take 800C in particular as 100%), and
- some "typical" cooling efficiency setup (say, 15 total double heatsinks) is able to cool down from 100% to 90% heat in, say, 10 seconds while standing out of cryonic pools of liquified gases, i.e. on "dry" land, by slowly radiating heat into (airless) space:
then, using mentioned above "amount of heat radiated out is proportional to 4th power of temperature difference", and omitting simplified math for each case (i did it this way: for cooling from 90% to 80%: 10s * (1000^4 / 900^4) = 15.241579 seconds, for cooling from 80% to 70%: 10s * (1000^4 / 800^4) = 24.4140625, etc), we get:
- cooling from 100% to 90%, i.e. from 800C to 700C: 10 seconds;
- cooling from 90% to 80%, i.e. from 700C to 600C: ~15.2 seconds;
- cooling from 80% to 70%, i.e. from 600C to 500C: ~24.4 seconds;
- cooling from 70% to 60%, i.e. from 500C to 400C: ~41.65 seconds;
- cooling from 60% to 50%, i.e. from 400C to 300C: ~77.16 seconds;
- cooling from 50% to 40%, i.e. from 300C to 200C: ~160.0 seconds;
- cooling from 40% to 30%, i.e. from 200C to 100C: ~390.625 seconds;
- cooling from 30% to 20%, i.e. from 100C to 0C: ~1234.57 seconds;
- cooling from 20% to 10%, i.e. from 0C to -100C: ~6250 seconds;
- cooling from 10% to 1%, i.e. from -100C to -190C: ~100000 seconds;
- cooling from 1% to 0%, i.e. from -190C to -200C: ~infinity (well, very astronomically large time, that is).
- it's open space (trace/no athmosphere), and surface/cryonic_ponds (environment) temperature is at nearly -200 degrees celcius - so oxygen and nitrogen are both existing only in liquid form on the surface, and
- heatsinks of a mech are at, say, 800 degrees celcius by the time overheating shutdown is imminent, and
- we translate heat% of a mech as directly proportional to difference between heatsinks' temperature and environment temperature (so, 100% heat = 1000 degrees C difference in this case; and yes, nice round 1000 for the difference - is the reason i take 800C in particular as 100%), and
- some "typical" cooling efficiency setup (say, 15 total double heatsinks) is able to cool down from 100% to 90% heat in, say, 10 seconds while standing out of cryonic pools of liquified gases, i.e. on "dry" land, by slowly radiating heat into (airless) space:
then, using mentioned above "amount of heat radiated out is proportional to 4th power of temperature difference", and omitting simplified math for each case (i did it this way: for cooling from 90% to 80%: 10s * (1000^4 / 900^4) = 15.241579 seconds, for cooling from 80% to 70%: 10s * (1000^4 / 800^4) = 24.4140625, etc), we get:
- cooling from 100% to 90%, i.e. from 800C to 700C: 10 seconds;
- cooling from 90% to 80%, i.e. from 700C to 600C: ~15.2 seconds;
- cooling from 80% to 70%, i.e. from 600C to 500C: ~24.4 seconds;
- cooling from 70% to 60%, i.e. from 500C to 400C: ~41.65 seconds;
- cooling from 60% to 50%, i.e. from 400C to 300C: ~77.16 seconds;
- cooling from 50% to 40%, i.e. from 300C to 200C: ~160.0 seconds;
- cooling from 40% to 30%, i.e. from 200C to 100C: ~390.625 seconds;
- cooling from 30% to 20%, i.e. from 100C to 0C: ~1234.57 seconds;
- cooling from 20% to 10%, i.e. from 0C to -100C: ~6250 seconds;
- cooling from 10% to 1%, i.e. from -100C to -190C: ~100000 seconds;
- cooling from 1% to 0%, i.e. from -190C to -200C: ~infinity (well, very astronomically large time, that is).
ah, doing the math for me
i like the idea FinsT, on 18 October 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:
It could be so cool! PGI, can we get this, please? Pretty, pretty please???
Pun excused
FinsT, on 18 October 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:
P.P.S. For cooling from 30% to 20%, more precisely put result - is 1234.5679012345679 - this is an amazing number! %) You can check yourself in windows calc: switch to "engineer's mode", then calculate it by typing in "300", then press " x^y " button, then type in "4", then press " = " button, then press " 1/x " button, then press " * " button, then type in "10000000000000" (this is 1000^4 * 10), then hit " = " button, and you'll see it this quite beautiful number - it has "567901234" group after decimal repeating itself infinitely! Wow. ^^
haha neat!
Randalf Yorgen, on 18 October 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:
In space, or on a planet with no atmosphere, the sunny side will be 200deg + and the shadow side will be 200deg - yes heat is still radiated away through the heatsinks, just like the one on top of your CPU. Moving air only helps this process... or walking away. So a mech standing in shadow would cool quickly but would be a huge blob on thermal vision and a mech walking through shadow would have a heat trail leading right to it. Moving mechs out of the shadows would run at... what.... 50% heat with a 50% reduction in cooling abilities. It would be an interesting map to learn to play on, until you suffer a headshot that is and you are exposed to the outside environment. Then you're just scrambled eggs.
The idea of heat on different parts of the map is awesome! A lot of people are talking about this recently. The environment changing how your mech performs based on its state of damage is good, would make for interesting play.
FinsT, on 18 October 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:
However, again, i didn't forget this one, too; it's described in "P.S." of the big post above (1st post i made in this topic). As i said there, it also would make targeting the mech "inside" the cloud difficult, especially particular parts. Limited visibility! But, yes, indeed, it'd give away mech's position too, of course. Both would be neat effects i think.
Realistic environmental effects are definitely needed on all the maps. Frozen City has the blizzard, but fog, dust storms, rain and others would liven up all the maps. These factors should be totally random and even isolated to some parts of the map! Like the volcanic vents on caustic valley.
These ideas are pretty awesome. Thanks for putting so much effort into your reply FinsT! I think there is room for more "out of the square" ideas on where battles can take place. PGI don't have to implement them, but CW will really feel like galactic warfare with (what we imagine would be) realistic locations the human sprawl would create.
More ideas welcome!!
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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:38 AM
X3kutor, on 19 October 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:
...
Can there be a liquid environment without an atmosphere? Doesn't one make the other? i dunno my physics is rusty haha
...
Can there be a liquid environment without an atmosphere? Doesn't one make the other? i dunno my physics is rusty haha
...
Strictly speaking - no, there can't be; there are ALWAYS at least few moleculae which "jump" above surface of (nearly any) liquid and form gaseous layer above the surface. However,
In practice - yes, there can be; at certain temperatures, - near the freezing point for the most volatile liquid present on the surface of a planet, - so few moleculae have enough kinetic energy to actually tear their bounds with other moleculae in the liquid and become gaseous, - that resulting athmosphere is extremely very thin. Like, 0.000000000001 of Earth's athmospheric pressure, or so.
Proposed temperature is -200 degrees C because both nitrogen and oxygen freeze to solid slightly below that - somewhere in -208...215 for both of these gases, if i am not mistaken. And i assumed there is no free hydrogen on the surface (except trace amounts) - because there is oxygen, so hydrogen ends up as water, which at -200 is rock solid and hard as steel. Besides, with time, free gaseous hydrogen would escape into far space on most planets - as it does quite much even on Earth. So, there would pretty much be nothing more volatile than free oxygen and/or nitrogen on the surface; nothing to create any thick athmosphere out of.
The one somewhat near match to such a planet in our solar system - is second-largest moon of Saturn, Rhea. Its "athmosphere" is so thin it's not even called "athmosphere" by scientists - special term, "exosphere", was coined, because when it's so thin, gaseous matter doesn't actually behave like a gas. Basically, it's so thin it's just like space all the same. You can read further details here - http://en.wikipedia....n%29#Atmosphere . And the temperatures on the surface of Rhea are some 50...100 Kelvin - which is, -220...-170 celcius - which means that oxygen there exists in solid form when it's "cold", and melts into liquid when things "warm up", most likely forming (at least small) ponds and lakes. %)
Since there is no athmosphere worth mentioning, there can't be rains on Rhea; this means rivers and streams would be very few and rare, if any at all (no idea if it gets any tectonics to drive it). But for the game, "narrow" lakes can still be called "rivers" i guess, cause most players won't bother to realize rivers are impossible in such conditions, - and "river" is what they will most likely call any long/narrow bodies of cryogenic liquids.
Titan - the largest Saturn's moon, comparable to Mars in size, - has thick nitrogen athmosphere, because Titan is slightly warmer than Nitrogen's boiling point of -195C - so nitrogen there exists as gas, not as liquid. Possibly it's greenhouse effect of lots of methane present in Titan's athmosphere. And to this day we don't really know whether that huge amount of methane there - would be a result of some simple lifeforms, or somehow just geological phenomena.
Triton - largest Neptune's moon, - is already "too far"; surface temperature there is near -230C, which means nitrogen and oxygen can only exist in solid forms on its surface. However, this moon is large enough (some ~2500 kilometers in diameter) and it has heavy core - so there are tectonics. Means, it has cryovolcanoes on its surface, from which "lava" - liquid and semi-liquid nitrogen-based flow, - is erupting. And its athmosphere? 1/70000th of Earth's. Practically, no athmosphere.
Neat stuff, if you ask me. ^^
Edited by FinsT, 19 October 2013 - 03:15 AM.
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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:30 AM
FinsT, on 19 October 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:
Neat stuff, if you ask me. ^^
Definitely. The possibility of these physics being implemented into the game would be fantastic. If random map generation is being created for CW, then these types of landscapes would be truly beautiful. Some of the maps are too human-oriented. Cities and cliche places of battle. Landscapes that can only be hypothesized has to become a map feature.
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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:38 PM
I like it X3kutor; a low or no atmosphere world or maybe a big moon. As you say it could be a staging post or a refuelling station prior to going through a jump gate / space fold / wormhole or very long sleep in cryogenic freeze (dependant on technology).
I like the idea of cooling stations, it's similar to the old repair bays from MW3 and 4. By making them a capture point that also means that they become a defendable asset, similar to Conquest, the difference being that they play a much more important role.
I would like to see other structures with strategic / tactical importance such as Oxygen generators / Terraformers / Agricultural domes / Deep space Radar installations etc, all of which would provide XP / C-Bills if captured or defended.
I like the idea of cooling stations, it's similar to the old repair bays from MW3 and 4. By making them a capture point that also means that they become a defendable asset, similar to Conquest, the difference being that they play a much more important role.
I would like to see other structures with strategic / tactical importance such as Oxygen generators / Terraformers / Agricultural domes / Deep space Radar installations etc, all of which would provide XP / C-Bills if captured or defended.
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