334 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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XL engine, SRM's and medium lasers, and Ac5 for main range firepower?

lol. That weapon loadout is awful. But generally Highlanders.are played with XL engines. In fact thats one of the main reasons its much better than an Atlas. Its complete suicide using a 300XL in an Atlas. And because the Atlas is forced to use a standard engine, its losing 10 tons, which means the Atlas is effectively a 90 ton mech.

[Homeless Bill]

Though I agree with PEEF's assessment to an extent, I'd also agree with this:

Avalios, on 19 October 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

It's the heaviest jumping mech, and with JJ sniping still top of the meta of course it's the best. Seems your problem is JJs not the mech itself. Nerf the highlander and everyone will just run victors. Nerf the victor and everyone will hop back into their 3Ds.

At the end of the day, peek-sniping is still a ridiculously effective strategy, and being able to do that while flying is just that much better.

Sure, the Highlander has nice hardpoint locations and hitboxes, but those are just the icing on the cake. Chasing the poptart build around by nerfing each chassis that can do it when it becomes the flavor of the month is ultimately counterproductive.

Remember that one time I made that thread about how heat penalties weren't going to work? Remember how Ghost Heat didn't fix the problem, they nerfed the **** out of PPCs, and it still didn't change the peeking/flying, high-alpha, pinpoint damage playstyle that has dominated the metagame for months on end? Yeah. Told you so.

It's time to stop chasing the cheese from one weapon to another - from this 'mech to that 'mech. It's time to address the real problem: more than 20 points of damage to a single location in a single click is bad for game balance. Being able to do that much while flying is an absolute joke.

There's no downside to pinpoint damage, and until that's fixed, you'll continue to see those builds dominate at the top levels. It also doesn't help that SRMs are still **** compared to any ballistic you could be mounting.

[MischiefSC]

A big part of the job of developers in games like this that involve people playing in matches and rankings is subtly obfuscating just how terrible most players are. 90% of players are NOT in the top 10%. Probably 80% of players think they are, the other 20% are absolutely CERTAIN they are the top 10%. If you showed everyone their Elo I wonder how many people would quietly quit?

[Kiiyor]

Alistair Winter, on 20 October 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

PS: I agree that the Highlander, and other assault mechs, need to have their twist speed and arm speed reduced. But it's never going to happen. PGI doesn't have that approach to balancing, they don't like it and most likely never will. I'm getting sick of repeating a cliché, but... working as intended.

And lo, legions of Jenners and Spiders did begin to drool uncontrollably at the mere thought of that notion becoming a reality, though verily, they know that it is but a pipe dream.

[Roland]

Kiiyor, on 21 October 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

And lo, legions of Jenners and Spiders did begin to drool uncontrollably at the mere thought of that notion becoming a reality, though verily, they know that it is but a pipe dream.

Well, it's possible that another type of mech could be best suited for killing light mechs.

It's almost like they need a class of mechs between heavy and light mechs.

OH WAIT

[Kiiyor]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Well, it's possible that another type of mech could be best suited for killing light mechs.

It's almost like they need a class of mechs between heavy and light mechs.

OH WAIT

WHAT IS THIS SORCERY YOU SPEAK OF??

Lights
[Redacted - THOU SHALT NOT BE NAMED]
Heavies
DUR HUR I PIOLET AN ASSULT




Though the shawk is surprisingly awesome.

[RudyTuttie]

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You fail to accept one simple fact ....the inequities of this game are not cared about at the highest level because the highest level players make up too small of a group that has minimal impact on the game's bottom line. It's the middle tier and casual players who drive PGI's decisions on balance

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When something in this game (any PvP game) is glaringly OP, people flock to it in droves to inflate their self-esteem or satiate their "gotta win" urges. That's no longer the case with the HGN, hence no outcry in general.

Gotta win attitudes provide drama and excitement to the game. I'm grateful for it.

newbie here, but i have participated in many competitive online games. In a bit of irony, I came to this subforum to find out what was the OP meta so I can copy it. Us newbies will attempt to copy the play at the top level; its just a bit slower in mwo because the game is so young. After starting on the bottom rung of the skill ladder many, many times, I'm wise enough to know seek out the top tier meta and copy as best as my noob self can. Especially since mechs are so $$. I'm just gonna buy the best one as early as I can in it's OP cycle, and try to save enough credits to buy the next OP mech when it comes out.

Balance and counter play makes the game more fun for everyone. When a game is relatively balanced, then you will be able to choose a variety of different options and playstyles and still carry your weight on the team.

Balance is extremely important for games to thrive. This is obvious to any player who's participated in and have seen maturation of older games. ie why starcraft grew while all those other rts communities shrunk until the serves were empty or full of bots. If you look at LOL, after 1 tournament community meta instantly shifts and copies pro strats even within top 35% elo. This is not a bad thing, imho nerf cycles are necessary to the life of a game. This game's financial model is very similar to LOL, and I bet you they will try to cash in on top tier pro tournaments just like LOL in the future.

If you really want balance, you should make a video guide of how to abuse current meta and spread it around the net. It's the fastest way to get something fixed.

Edited by RudyTuttie, 21 October 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Khobai]

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PS: I agree that the Highlander, and other assault mechs, need to have their twist speed and arm speed reduced.

Nope they really dont.

The problem is the game rewards you for damage and kills. So light mech pilots naturally assume their role is to do damage and get kills. So they expect light mechs to be able to compete with heavies and assaults in combat. Which honestly could not be farther from the spirit of battletech. The problem here is not the Highlander, but rather the fact role warfare is non-existent, and that theres no non-combat roles for lights and mediums to excel at.

We dont need a nerf to Assaults and Heavies. Theyre working as intended. Mostly what we need is a complete overhaul of the roles lights and mediums are supposed to perform. And the gamemodes need to be difficult for heavies and assaults to win without lights or mediums performing those roles.

Edited by Khobai, 21 October 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[aniviron]

Khobai, on 21 October 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Nope they really dont.

The problem is the game rewards you for damage and kills. So light mech pilots naturally assume their role is to do damage and get kills. So they expect light mechs to be able to compete with heavies and assaults in combat. Which honestly could not be farther from the spirit of battletech. The problem here is not the Highlander, but rather the fact role warfare is non-existent, and that theres no non-combat roles for lights and mediums to excel at.

We dont need a nerf to Assaults and Heavies. Theyre working as intended. Mostly what we need is a complete overhaul of the roles lights and mediums are supposed to perform. And the gamemodes need to be difficult for heavies and assaults to win without lights or mediums performing those roles.

I mean, I don't want to tell you what the spirit of battletech is, but in the tabletop game you actually got rewarded pretty heavily for killing mechs also; saying that lights were not meant for combat is not only misleading, it's incorrect. Of the lights we have now, the Jenner, Commando, and non-3L Ravens were all meant primarily for combat and engaging; the Spider and Locust were more scout-oriented, but still meant to fight. I mean, you'd think that if the battletech spirit were primarily focused on lights being out of combat there would be more than one light variant in the entirety of MWO that comes with TAG or NARC or ECM or C3.

[YueFei]

Khobai, on 21 October 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Nope they really dont.

The problem is the game rewards you for damage and kills. So light mech pilots naturally assume their role is to do damage and get kills. So they expect light mechs to be able to compete with heavies and assaults in combat. Which honestly could not be farther from the spirit of battletech. The problem here is not the Highlander, but rather the fact role warfare is non-existent, and that theres no non-combat roles for lights and mediums to excel at.

We dont need a nerf to Assaults and Heavies. Theyre working as intended. Mostly what we need is a complete overhaul of the roles lights and mediums are supposed to perform. And it needs to be difficult for heavies and assaults to win without lights or mediums performing those roles.

Just make the field of battle much wider, and put more objectives on the map. Imagine Conquest Mode on a large map. You drop nothing but 12 Assaults. Do you:
1.) split into 3 groups of 4 to attack and hold 3 bases.
countered by the enemy having a balanced force with faster mechs, scouting and seeing that you've split up, and hitting you with all 12 against 4 by using their superior speed to converge onto 1 base, crushing those 4 and capping a 3rd base. If the other two lances respond to take it back, avoid them and cap the bases they vacate.
2.) Deathball it up and try to roflstomp from base to base.
again, countered by the enemy splitting up, keeping tabs on your main force and avoiding direct combat with it, and capping the other points.

Just.... replace Conquest with a more interesting game mode. Like, each team gets several bases with each base providing some kind of benefit, and spread those bases across a larger area. Say, one base contains an airfield and another one has artillery batteries, and destroying them will prevent the enemy from using airstrikes and artillery strikes (and make airstrikes and artillery strikes worth a damn). Something like that. This needs to be hashed out with details, but that's the basic concept.

[Khobai]

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but in the tabletop game you actually got rewarded pretty heavily for killing mechs also; saying that lights were not meant for combat is not only misleading, it's incorrect. Of the lights we have now, the Jenner, Commando, and non-3L Ravens were all meant primarily for combat and engaging

1) depends on the scenario. not all scenarios had kill objectives. some actually required light mechs to complete the objective or survive.

2) I didnt say lights werent for combat. I said they shouldnt be able to compete in combat with heavies or assaults. They should make up for not being as good in combat by being good at other roles. If someone wants to design a combat light, they should be able to, but expecting it to be as good as a heavy or assault is absurd.

3) the non-combat roles that lights/mediums perform should be vital to winning the gamemode. It should be hard for a team of all heavies or assaults to win.

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Just make the field of battle much wider, and put more objectives on the map. Imagine Conquest Mode on a large map. You drop nothing but 12 Assaults. Do you:

I tend to agree. We need larger maps. Strategy tends to be lacking on smaller maps because they always play out the same exact way. Larger maps would also help scouting become a stronger role.

Edited by Khobai, 21 October 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Kiiyor]

RudyTuttie, on 21 October 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

...newbie here, but i have participated in many competitive online games. In a bit of irony, I came to this subforum to find out what was the OP meta so I can copy it....

And this, without a trace of sarcasm, is one of the best recommendations I could make to any new player. MWO is a brutal and unforgiving mistress, where battles are often lost in the mechlab. Running FOTM builds is a great way to get to grips with the game and the power you can have if you build your mechs right.

You can't learn how to play a game if you're dead!

[YueFei]

How the hell did this thread end up here?!?

[ArmandTulsen]

Have to admit, the Highlander is quite a sexy mech. I've anticipated it, since it was introduced, and it lived above and beyond expectation.

It's, by far and large, my best performer, seconded only by the Victor.

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 23 October 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[Ramwold]

Maybe nerf self proclaimed 'top pilots'.
I'm far more irritated by arrogant rudeness, than I am by a skilled opponent.