251 replies to this topic

[Nryrony]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

alot more then that. anything with range will murder you. any dedicated brawler will also murder you if they can torso twist effectively. all you need is to lose a side torso in that mech and your dead. WIch with how the arms are placed, you cant defend.

If you are alone, don't stay behind your atlas or your team gets outplayed it wouldn't matter anyway. There is not much difference between an AC 2/5 Jager, a Gauss Jager or an AC 20 Jager getting shot into pieces at 700m+ by 3 other mechs.

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

If you are alone, don't stay behind your atlas or your team gets outplayed it wouldn't matter anyway. There is not much difference between an AC 2/5 Jager, a Gauss Jager or an AC 20 Jager getting shot into pieces at 700m+ by 3 other mechs.

so your argument is that in a group you would be good. the counter argument is that a group of brawlers that know how to torso twist still beats you. The ac40 jager cannot defend itself as inferior to any mech that can. If your in a group and rely on them for defense then expect the enemy to have a group that can be rlied on for defense as well. and they can all torso twist?

I dont see this as a remotely valid comparison or discussion. Unless you can explain how a mech with zero defensive capability going up afgainst mechs with equal fire power and strong defensive capability is equal.

[Nryrony]

My point is, that usually superior numbers do count. If you catch a solo mech it usually does not matter what faces what. However if it are lights and the Jager is good i might still one shot 2 out of 3-4.

The key is - to surprise you enemy with a 40 instant blast, take cover and repeat. Its also a good to very good duel mech.

If you think you can duel alone vs more then 2 mechs I can't help you... same deal if you run into the open and get sniped.

Edited by Nryrony, 15 February 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

my point is, that usually superior numbers do count. If you catch a solo mech it usually does not matter what faces what. However if it are lights and the Jager is good i might still one shot 2 out of 3-4.

The point is - to surprise you enemy with a 40 instant blast, take cover and repeat. Its also a good to very good duel mech.

actually thats the problem with it. The mech is a particularly bad duelist aggainst any mech that can defend itself with torso twisting. The only time the ac40 jager prospers is when it surprises someone. In wich case its when the enemy is playing poorly or you are playing very good. That said you can put most mechs into 'surprise' situations and have them do well.

The only mechs an ac40 jager can one shot are lights. Every other mech that is even surprised by the ac40 jager might take some damage at the start but as long as they react appropriately are not handed a death sentence.

[Nryrony]

Oh trust me, if you hit a shadowhawk in the ct/st he will be soon toast.

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Oh trust me, if you hit a shadowhawk in the ct/st he will be soon toast.

care to try the math on that one?

the STOCK loadout, on the shadow hawk has 26 armor, wich provides 52 protection to the side torso. That is without being able to increase it to a total of 42.

at 26 armor points you can take two rounds and still ahve 12 armor value left.

at 42 armor points you can take 8 rounds and still have 4 armor value left.

That means if someone has done there work properly on a mech and arent running stock they can take 4 full alphas from the jager into one torso section before dieing.

That means they have to hold still long enough, not torso twist...etc...etc... for you to land all your rounds there.

[TehSBGX]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 February 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

I run one cause I love hard hitting Quick killing weapon platforms. Is that wrong?

Nope not wrong at all, but it does sound like lulz might be involved when a Locust gets slammed in the face.

[Nryrony]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

care to try the math on that one?

the STOCK loadout, on the shadow hawk has 26 armor, wich provides 52 protection to the side torso. That is without being able to increase it to a total of 42.

at 26 armor points you can take two rounds and still ahve 12 armor value left.

at 42 armor points you can take 8 rounds and still have 4 armor value left.

That means if someone has done there work properly on a mech and arent running stock they can take 4 full alphas from the jager into one torso section before dieing.

That means they have to hold still long enough, not torso twist...etc...etc... for you to land all your rounds there.

I'm not sure if I can follow you, I might be off with internal health calculation, but isn't it 50% of max armor in that part? (52 max, 26 int.health absolute max 78 - realistic max 68 - for CT it would be roughly 98 if he had 10pts rear armor...)

Just an example, a Victor(9B) on testing ground (Crimson) takes 2 full alphas into its (front)ST until its completely taken out (should be 74 combined "health"). He certainly has more internal health then a Shadowhawk and the 9B has 40 default armor - how can that be 8 rounds (total MAX armor is 52... with 0 rear armor..)?

If you twist you can not hold fire, which gives you an advantage since you simply out dps him - even in burst mode. And if its a simple non xl brawling AC20 Shadowhawk, you even got twice the dps and more armor, please explain how you can lose if both players are at the same level.

Not to mention that you can even fit lasers into an AC40 Jager, if he runs an XL he certainly has the tonnage for it and insane speed as well.

Oh and you still could accidentally headshot him...

Edited by Nryrony, 15 February 2014 - 03:30 PM.

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

I'm not sure if I can follow you, I might be off with internal health calculation, but isn't it 50% of max armor in that part?

Just an example, a Victor(9B) on testing ground takes 2 full alphas into its ST until its completely taken out. He certainly has more internal health then a Shadowhawk and the 9B has 40 default armor - how can that be 8 rounds?

If you twist you can not hold fire, which gives you an advantage since you simply out dps him - even in burst mode. And if its a simple non xl brawling AC20 Shadowhawk, you even got twice the dps and more armor, please explain how you can lose if both players are at the same level.

that is the armor before it is upgraded. all of the builds and armor on the testing ground are very low.

If you want to know what the true ability of a mech is, go into smurfy and play around with the numbers armor wise there. Keep in mind armor value is doubled. so if a mech has 30 armor on one location, then they have 60 effective points of damage they can take before that area is cored.

That said if you want to look over those numbers you will note *as I said* that only mechs below a medium can get one shot, unless your damaging rear armor only. And even among the lights many of them still take more then one shot as well.

[NKAc Street]

This issue is something that as a player can only be suspected. Of course there is a possibility that someone was using a cheat. Another issue is that you were already damaged and even the lower damage finished you off. Then still there could be the netcode and hsr that didn't work right and you were on the losing end.


Or last but not least, you're full of it.

Edited by NKAc Street, 15 February 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[Nryrony]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

that is the armor before it is upgraded. all of the builds and armor on the testing ground are very low.

If you want to know what the true ability of a mech is, go into smurfy and play around with the numbers armor wise there.

If you actually read my post, thats what I did, the Victor was just "check" to see if my internal health calculation was correct.

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

(52 max, 26 int.health absolute max 78 - realistic max 68 - for CT it would be roughly 98 if he had 10pts rear armor...)

This is the calculation for the Shadowhaks ST and CT, please show me where I'm wrong and please tell me where your 8 rounds fit in there, with math please.

[Joseph Mallan]

TehSBGX, on 15 February 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Nope not wrong at all, but it does sound like lulz might be involved when a Locust gets slammed in the face.

Have you seen what happens to a Locust on TT when hit with one AC20 round? Hel Yes there is much LULZ! Should I feel bad for it? I don't think so. You chose a Mech that has endurace issues, you should know the risks and accept the results when they come.

Like when I rould a corner in a 300 rate (F)Atlas and see 6-9 enemy Mechs. I know I am going to die, but how expensive can I make my death?!?

[Nick Makiaveli]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

so your argument is that in a group you would be good. the counter argument is that a group of brawlers that know how to torso twist still beats you. The ac40 jager cannot defend itself as inferior to any mech that can. If your in a group and rely on them for defense then expect the enemy to have a group that can be rlied on for defense as well. and they can all torso twist?

I dont see this as a remotely valid comparison or discussion. Unless you can explain how a mech with zero defensive capability going up afgainst mechs with equal fire power and strong defensive capability is equal.

So your argument is the mech doesn't do well against a group? But you say that to say it is good in a group is bogus?

Name a mech that does well against a group, or does worse when in a group.....


That said, a BoomJager works best with other mechs. Knocking off 40 pts of armor doesn't feel good to any mech. Especially if his lancemates are also targeting that mech. Somebody's getting a kill shot. Now it's 4v3...Next!!!

And just in case you missed it....

Name a mech that does well against a group, or does worse when in a group.....

[Navy Sixes]

Is the Jagerbomb a troll build?

It definitely preys on newer players who either don't know what to look for in spotting them early or don't know how to counter one.

Personally, I've played around enough with them in Smurfy's to know how to deal with them, and I'd advise players who can't quite get over on one to do the same, or even run one for a while and pay attention to how other players beat you. When the shoe's on the other foot, I think you may find they are not the "win button" you think they are now.

I've taken down enough of them with nothing more than a pair of AC/2s (last night I dropped one with a pair of med lasers!) and conversely been blown open by enough of them when I made mistakes (which is just how the game should be) to feel they are no more a threat than any other heavy brawler in the game.

[Shae Starfyre]

This has nothing to do with gameplay balance, because the games are not balanced to begin with; teams against causal and new players must be resolved first in order to determine if it is the mechs, the weapons, or what! How is there a logical debate over anything balanced without first seperating casual players from organized teams?

[Joseph Mallan]

Tycho von Gagern, on 16 February 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Is the Jagerbomb a troll build?

It definitely preys on newer players who either don't know what to look for in spotting them early or don't know how to counter one.

Personally, I've played around enough with them in Smurfy's to know how to deal with them, and I'd advise players who can't quite get over on one to do the same, or even run one for a while and pay attention to how other players beat you. When the shoe's on the other foot, I think you may find they are not the "win button" you think they are now.

I've taken down enough of them with nothing more than a pair of AC/2s (last night I dropped one with a pair of med lasers!) and conversely been blown open by enough of them when I made mistakes (which is just how the game should be) to feel they are no more a threat than any other heavy brawler in the game.

The perfect point. You took time to study the problem, learned a counter, applied it, and now you can beat the boogieman. Thinking mans shooter in a nut shell.

[Varent]

Nick Makiaveli, on 16 February 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

So your argument is the mech doesn't do well against a group? But you say that to say it is good in a group is bogus?

Name a mech that does well against a group, or does worse when in a group.....


That said, a BoomJager works best with other mechs. Knocking off 40 pts of armor doesn't feel good to any mech. Especially if his lancemates are also targeting that mech. Somebody's getting a kill shot. Now it's 4v3...Next!!!

And just in case you missed it....

Name a mech that does well against a group, or does worse when in a group.....

I would rather have 4 mechs with 4 erlarge laser. or 3 missle boats and one spotter. or 4 jump snipers. or 4 dedicated brawling lights. Bottom line that's great you have 4 ac40 jager wich are giant moving targets and need to be close to be effective. All of the mechs I just listed would do more towards winning a match and would be capable of standing toe to toe with those mechs.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Tycho von Gagern, on 16 February 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Is the Jagerbomb a troll build?

It definitely preys on newer players who either don't know what to look for in spotting them early or don't know how to counter one.

Personally, I've played around enough with them in Smurfy's to know how to deal with them, and I'd advise players who can't quite get over on one to do the same, or even run one for a while and pay attention to how other players beat you. When the shoe's on the other foot, I think you may find they are not the "win button" you think they are now.

I've taken down enough of them with nothing more than a pair of AC/2s (last night I dropped one with a pair of med lasers!) and conversely been blown open by enough of them when I made mistakes (which is just how the game should be) to feel they are no more a threat than any other heavy brawler in the game.

Wouldn't any well designed mech "take advantage" of new players that are clueless?

Varent, on 16 February 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I would rather have 4 mechs with 4 erlarge laser. or 3 missle boats and one spotter. or 4 jump snipers. or 4 dedicated brawling lights. Bottom line that's great you have 4 ac40 jager wich are giant moving targets and need to be close to be effective. All of the mechs I just listed would do more towards winning a match and would be capable of standing toe to toe with those mechs.

I never said they were the Jesus Mech. I simply stated that in the right location, they can tear another lance apart. Just like any other specialized build.

Also, define close.....dealing half damage at range is still 20pts of damage...times 4......

Oh and the last time we ran a lance of BoomJagers it started as a joke. As in someone said, wouldn't it be funny....then I said well I just built one last night to see what all the fuss was about....so 3 Boomers and a Hunchie walked in a bar....

[Varent]

Nick Makiaveli, on 16 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Wouldn't any well designed mech "take advantage" of new players that are clueless?



I never said they were the Jesus Mech. I simply stated that in the right location, they can tear another lance apart. Just like any other specialized build.

Also, define close.....dealing half damage at range is still 20pts of damage...times 4......

Oh and the last time we ran a lance of BoomJagers it started as a joke. As in someone said, wouldn't it be funny....then I said well I just built one last night to see what all the fuss was about....so 3 Boomers and a Hunchie walked in a bar....

I agree, they are not a jesus mech. I don't see why there is a need to mess with them. If anything they make some newbies e-peen feel big and keep them wanting to play.

[Nryrony]

Varent, on 16 February 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I agree, they are not a jesus mech. I don't see why there is a need to mess with them. If anything they make some newbies e-peen feel big and keep them wanting to play.

Still waiting for your math though...