58 replies to this topic

[Bront]

Interesting article a friend pointed me to, didn't see it here.

Roger Norris]So why do Spiders take so much flak for being impossible to hit? I would argue that there's not a Spider-specific hit registration problem, on but that the narrow side profile and high speed make it a particularly obnoxious target. Weapon convergence issues exacerbate those problems even more. And if I, said:

it's actually impossible to hit a Spider[/i] in certain cases; see the last point for details.

First, let's do a simple size comparison. When viewed from the side, a Jenner is 2.3 times wider than a Spider. So that's already a point in favor of the Spider. Incidentally that's also why Locusts die so easily; they are relatively wide, and target width has more impact on survivability than height (or speed IMO).

Next, consider weapon convergence vs. a moving target. Let's assume that you're in a Yen-Lo-Wang and you want to give the enemy a taste of your AC/20. He's a speedy Jenner whizzing past you at 130 kph and at a distance of 50 meters. Based on the AC/20 projectile speed you need to lead your target by 2.01 meters. Fortunately the Jenner is almost five meters wide, so you can just aim at the tip of his nose and score a direct hit. Weapon convergence isn't a concern at all because your crosshair is on the target (i.e. perfect convergence distance).

But what happens if that target is a Spider? Weapon convergence is an issue because our lead distance is now larger than half the target's width. Our crosshair will not be on the target... which means that the convergence distance will vary depending on the terrain behind the target! In other words, you must vary your lead distance depending on what's behind him. To make matters worse, our AC/20 is roughly 3 meters to the right of the cockpit (more than the width of the Spider FYI), so lead distance varies even more depending on whether he's running clockwise or counter-clockwise.

Well if you crunch the numbers then it turns out you must lead the target somewhere between 5.2 meters and -1.2 meters. That's right - if the Spider is running clockwise (left-to-right) and the terrain behind him is distant then you actually have to aim behind him. But that's very close to his actual width, and if you mess up and put your crosshair on the trailing end of the target? Suddenly the "correct" convergence distance causes you to miss entirely.

That last bit is more troublesome than you might think. It turns out that in some circumstances it's actually impossible to hit him.

Consider a Spider running at 130 kph at a distance of 50 meters. But in this example there's a hill behind him at 100 meters. Taking weapon convergence into account (we're still in a Yen-Lo), we can calculate two different lead distances depending on whether our crosshair will ultimately be on the target or off the target (i.e. correct or incorrect convergence distance).

With correct convergence distance we must lead by 2.01 meters.
With incorrect convergence distance (i.e. crosshair on the hill behind him) we must lead by 0.41 meters.

Notice the problem yet? Half of the Spider's width is about 1.08 meters... it's impossible to get the correct convergence distance to score a hit! If the crosshair is directly on the target then we'll always miss to the left of the target. But if we lead to the right then our convergence distance changes and we always miss to the right!

Moral of the story? I don't know, bring some streaks? Or aim for the foot - convergence distance is less of a problem when the ground is right there.

As a quick follow-up, I would just add that it's a slight exaggeration for me to say that he's totally impossible to hit in that last scenario. You can usually force a fixed convergence distance by leading an extremely narrow point on the target - his hips, for example. But it'll very tricky to score a hit when aiming at the narrowest part of an already narrow 'Mech, and it'll require a lot of game sense to compensate for the terrain behind him. Better just bring some streaks 

It explains a lot if true.

[MandoZ]

Seems logical. Devs need to think again about the whole convergence thing. Removing it or making it fixed to player adjusted distance would solve so many other problems as well. If anyone has played Red Orchestra 2, there you can adjust your iron sight elevation to correct shooting distance. Maybe the devs could make an option to force weapons to either close range or long range convergence. But I suppose "It would be too confusing for the new players".

[Bishop Steiner]

seems to explain some of the issues.

Problem is, as many can attest, the issues with Spiders registering hits seem to be legion. Similar to the comments at the bottom of his post, I cannot count the number of times I have lined up a short range shot on the torso, or even leg of a stationary (or even shutdown, and yes, an AFK one too) Spider with my JagerBomb, touched off a 40pt alpha and achieved 0 damage.

So it appears we have dead zones on the Spider'***** boxes themselves, convergence issues that are variable and not fixed, various HSR issues, and more.

And yet they decided to buff the Spider with the other Lights this last pass, instead of prepping the fixes, and then holding off on the SDR until they have resolved some of the issues. Grand. Because 1v1 it makes so much sense for Heavy and Assault mechs to regularly get solo'd by a 30 ton scout. (Sorry kiddies, without a pack, or some seriously drawn out hit and run tactics, a Light Mech should NEVER be able to solo a Mech 20+ tons bigger. Otherwise it makes no sense, to spend 4-10x as much building larger mechs. Lights are scouts and flankers, not killers)

And just to make it more fun, and probably harder to diagnose, the issues seem highly inconsistent, as there are days where I can tag Spiders mid run just fine, and then others you can't damage them at all. It's highly not fun for people to have to deal with this, especially since so many of the Spider pilots out there act like it's their skill that is making the difference, instead of the fact they are just exploiting broken game mechanics, much like the Raven-3L pilots of old.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=1CkiNvfy1vs

[wintersborn]

What I find to be moronic is that PGI devs said there is no problem with spiders.
The mechs is so broken that it should be disabled until they fix it, since it is exploiting.

[CrashieJ]

wintersborn, on 21 October 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

What I find to be moronic is that PGI devs said there is no problem with spiders.
The mechs is so broken that it should be disabled until they fix it, since it is exploiting.

not until they're done having their fun with it, or they're the ones getting trolled by it.

Edited by gavilatius, 21 October 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

gavilatius, on 21 October 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

not until they're done having their fun with it, or they're the ones getting trolled by it.

Next announced Piranha Hunt, that's the answer. EVERYONE else drop in SPiders and wolfpack the Devs, every single match.

And make them drive the Orion, and tell us afterwards that the CT is "fine".

[SuperNobody]

I've never understood why convergence is based off of where my reticle is pointed rather than the distance to the enemy mech that I have targeted.

If I have nothing targeted, then obviously it would be where the reticle is pointed, but if I have a mech targeted it should be set to that distance. If it's based on reticle location only then all ballistics are negatively affected as you almost always have to lead a target moving horizontally across your field of view, and therefore you reticle will not actually be on the target.

[Roland]

I actually gave this explanation a while ago, although not in such detail.

I agree that this is one of the primary issues with the spider.... that in many cases, leading a fast moving spider makes it impossible to land all of your weapons on him.

[Corwin Vickers]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Because 1v1 it makes so much sense for Heavy and Assault mechs to regularly get solo'd by a 30 ton scout. (Sorry kiddies, without a pack, or some seriously drawn out hit and run tactics, a Light Mech should NEVER be able to solo a Mech 20+ tons bigger. Otherwise it makes no sense, to spend 4-10x as much building larger mechs.

It's called player skill. If you are regularly getting solo'd by spiders you don't have it. I do not have this problem.


Spider D 2.5mil
DHS 1.5
Endo .3
Ferro .15
XL255 4.2
ECM .4
----
9.05 mil

Spider K 2.5
DHS 1.5
Endo .3
Ferro .15
XL 285 4.7
----
9.15 mil


Stalker 3F 7.6mil
DHS 1.5
----
9.1 mil

Atlas D 9.7 mil
DHS 1.5
----
11.2 mil


Where does the 4x to 10x number come from? Or are you just trolling?

mwhighlander, on 21 October 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...8;v=1CkiNvfy1vs

The Dev quote talking about hit registration issues commonly misquoted by light opponents as applying to light mechs, is in fact talking about SRMs.

You can also find videos of SRMs not registering on plenty of other mechs. They are currently the worst registering weapons in the game.

This has been known for months now.


So either you guys don't know these things which means you are making all your judgements while being misinformed or you are purposefully trolling.

[aniviron]

It explains some issues, but also operates from the assumption that people have not repeatedly been able to observe their shots hitting the spider for no damage; this is not the case. There is now ample video evidence of this happening (there is plenty of it in this thread). The article is arguing that it's very hard to hit spiders, and that's all there is to it. I won't dispute that it is indeed very difficult to hit a spider, but that doesn't change the fact that in addition to their slipperiness they have a serious hit registration issue. OP says "It's very hard to hit spiders, tons of math, need to lead times, etc." Yes, that's great, but it is very very common to have your brain do all that math for you automatically (aren't you glad we had hunter-gatherer ancestors?), get a huge hit and explosion, and do no damage. The post doesn't address that at all, and seems to make the assumuption that if you hit the mech the damage registers- and that's just not the case with spiders. Most people aren't upset that the spider is hard to hit. They're upset that it's hard to hit and that when they DO hit, it usually doesn't hit anyway.

Oh, and while your friend may argue that it's not a spider-specific hit registration problem, there are a dozen videos of a spot right near the CT where shots just vanish for no damage on spiders. So the initial assumption is wrong. Here, let me link you one:

[Fooooo]

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

It explains some issues, but also operates from the assumption that people have not repeatedly been able to observe their shots hitting the spider for no damage; this is not the case. There is now ample video evidence of this happening (there is plenty of it in this thread). The article is arguing that it's very hard to hit spiders, and that's all there is to it. I won't dispute that it is indeed very difficult to hit a spider, but that doesn't change the fact that in addition to their slipperiness they have a serious hit registration issue. OP says "It's very hard to hit spiders, tons of math, need to lead times, etc." Yes, that's great, but it is very very common to have your brain do all that math for you automatically (aren't you glad we had hunter-gatherer ancestors?), get a huge hit and explosion, and do no damage. The post doesn't address that at all, and seems to make the assumuption that if you hit the mech the damage registers- and that's just not the case with spiders. Most people aren't upset that the spider is hard to hit. They're upset that it's hard to hit and that when they DO hit, it usually doesn't hit anyway.

Oh, and while your friend may argue that it's not a spider-specific hit registration problem, there are a dozen videos of a spot right near the CT where shots just vanish for no damage on spiders. So the initial assumption is wrong. Here, let me link you one:

There is definiately issues with hit detection or hsr, or hitboxes.

Yeah the hole in the spider bug is there (probably in other mechs too) , but other then that it seems random to me.

I mean just last night I wasted 2 spiders and 3 locusts in one game within quick succesion. (they were all together and swarming me) in a 2erppc flame!. Something I would generally have a little trouble doing (5lights vs just me is usually me = dead), however the very next match nothing seemed to register.

End of my 2nd match I ended up with 112 dmg somehow..........I know for a fact I hit a hell of a lot more than that, it was a better game than the 2spider 3 locust killing.............(I go by when the indicator/aimer turns red...meaning the server told me a hit has been registered afaik).

Basically I could see shots that should have turned it red, not turning it red. However there was enough red hits to go over 112dmg with dual erppcs......... I counted 32 red flashes of the aimer btw, so thats either 620dmg, or 310dmg if only 1 ppc hit each alpha (no shots were over 800m basically)........something is going on not just with spiders....... (I do have a high ping, 210 - 250ms, however its never really been this bad for me)

Like I said tho, its really random. Sometimes shots that should not hit , hit, (as in I shoot the terrain or hill infront of me and the aimer goes red as if I hit the guy behind the ridge......lag / delay is causing this shoot terrain but hit mech quirk. ) some games its 100% perfect, some games its 50% etc etc....... I can't place it on any single mech tho....all mechs cause it from my perspective....

Edited by Fooooo, 22 October 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

(Sorry kiddies, without a pack, or some seriously drawn out hit and run tactics, a Light Mech should NEVER be able to solo a Mech 20+ tons bigger. Otherwise it makes no sense, to spend 4-10x as much building larger mechs. Lights are scouts and flankers, not killers)

You still haven't understood that MWO is a PvP game, Bishop?

One player - one 'mech. They have to be roughly equal in effectiveness, or there would be no point in taking anything but the best assault 'mech.

In TT assaults could be strictly better than lights; it was okay, because each player got a bunch of 'mechs of all weight classes. Not so in MWO; the player that drops in a light has as much right to have fun and influence the outcome of the match as the player that drops in an assault.

And since the most efficient way of influencing the outcome of a match is to kill the enemy 'mechs, the lights should have no artificial hindrance from doing so.

In short, this is not your daddy's BattleTech; stop pretending it is. MWO lights are killers, just like any other 'mech, because that's all there is to be.

Edit: I'll let this post remain largely untouched, since the point is one that I believe is true. However, I'd like to apologize to Bishop for ascribing something to him that he never said, and for being generally a tard about it.

Edited by stjobe, 22 October 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Syllogy]

We need a montage.

[Syllogy]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

You still haven't understood that MWO is a PvP game, Bishop?

One player - one 'mech. They have to be roughly equal in effectiveness, or there would be no point in taking anything but the best assault 'mech.

In TT assaults could be strictly better than lights; it was okay, because each player got a bunch of 'mechs of all weight classes. Not so in MWO; the player that drops in a light has as much right to have fun and influence the outcome of the match as the player that drops in an assault.

And since the most efficient way of influencing the outcome of a match is to kill the enemy 'mechs, the lights should have no artificial hindrance from doing so.

In short, this is not your daddy's BattleTech; stop pretending it is. MWO lights are killers, just like any other 'mech, because that's all there is to be.

Should Light Mechs be just as valuable as Assault Mechs? Sure.

Should they do the same exact job with the same efficiency? Absolutely not.

Light Mechs are fast and hard to hit. They should be flanking the enemy and using chaos tactics to disrupt their movements, not going toe-to-toe with Heavy and Assault Mechs in a straight up brawl.

[stjobe]

Syllogy, on 22 October 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Should Light Mechs be just as valuable as Assault Mechs? Sure.

Should they do the same exact job with the same efficiency? Absolutely not.

Light Mechs are fast and hard to hit. They should be flanking the enemy and using chaos tactics to disrupt their movements, not going toe-to-toe with Heavy and Assault Mechs in a straight up brawl.

And nobody's asking for them to be able to stand still in front of a heavy or assault and trade blows (and win!). But look at what Bishop said:

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

a Light Mech should NEVER be able to solo a Mech 20+ tons bigger

He doesn't want a light to EVER be able to win a 1v1 against anything even 20 tons heavier. Not "brawling", not "flanking", not hit-and-run - NEVER.

And that's just wrong.


Actually, it's me that's wrong. Reading comprehension FTW, right? Right. Sorry Bishop.

Edited by stjobe, 22 October 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[King Arthur IV]

we need all the broken spider videos put in one thread.

[SweetJackal]

wintersborn, on 21 October 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

What I find to be moronic is that PGI devs said there is no problem with spiders.
The mechs is so broken that it should be disabled until they fix it, since it is exploiting.

No, it is not exploiting. It's you relying on Weapon Convergence to do the aiming for you that is causing you to miss. This is something that I have constantly observed and a reason why one of my best performing mechs is that horrible Dragon Champion that's on Trial.

Your shots always come from your weapon when you shoot and your aim point where your weapons converge is always dependent on the 1st person viewpoint. Convergence also snaps instantly to your aim point.

At a distance this makes shots easy as you just point and click. The difference between where your viewpoint is to where your weapons are firing from is rendered insignificant due to the distance you are firing at. At worse you need to be aware of the terrain around you blocking fire lines from your low mounted weapons.

When targets get closer then you have to account for that difference more. You need to be aware of these fire lines when near friendlies to avoid Friendly Fire.

The Spider is a unique mech in terms of design, short and slim with it's STs mounted high and it's CT much narrower at the top and wider at the belly. This small profile allows it to squeeze into these differences.

For example, a Spider can get point blank with a Centurion, literally hugging it and due to the height and placement of the Centurion's weapons the Centurion will not be able to effectively hit the Spider if they try aiming right at it. This is the case with many mechs.

So how do you hit it? What is the trick? Stop relying on weapon convergence. I said before that I've gotten damn good at gutting Spiders with the Trial Dragon Champion. This is because the arm weapons on that mech reach out so far from the CT it's nearly laughable at the amount of space you need to give yourself to not hammer terrain with your weapons. This helped me learn that to hit a Spider at close range you need to not aim at the Spider but aim in a manner that the Spider lays out on your weapon's firing lines.

You need to do the work and the aiming instead of letting the 'targeting computer' doing it for you. If I am in a Dragon with two LLs mounted to the left arm and a Spider is speeding close to me and moving to pass by me to my left then I need to aim to the right of the Spider as it enters close range to lay the firing lines of my pair of LLs right on the Spider itself. In essence, have the Spider run right into my fire.

If a Spider was hugging close to a Centurion with an Arm Mounted Weapon then to hit the Spider the Centurion would have to turn to it's left. In doing so you would be putting the barrel of the AC or Laser right against the Spider and allow that weapon to hit the mech.

Now, should this stay in? I believe so. Instant Convergence for every weapon no matter where it is mounted is more Arcade Action than it is Simulation, the matter of how convergence works to make it harder to hit certain targets is something that adds back in a bit of simulation and thought to aiming. I would rather go a step further and make all torso mounted weapons have a fixed convergence and leave the dynamic convergence that we currently have only for arms with lower articulation and lateral movement.

King Arthur IV, on 22 October 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

we need all the broken spider videos put in one thread.

They were in 1 thread at a point. There was a hole in the CT of a spider that would swallow up AC and missile rounds but lasers would still do proper damage.

It was found using training grounds as a measure and using the Training Grounds after the Phoenix Patch I have been unable to reproduce that hitbox hole.

If you can then you can use OBS to record it, upload it to youtube and post it here. Old videos are meaningless as patches change and fix the game. All data needs to be up to date.

Edited by SuckyJack, 22 October 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[IllCaesar]

Makes sense, but there's still the hitbox problem. My very last match, a spider was standing still, trying to peel off the armour off an ally. I was also still, aimed at it, fired five medium pulse lasers,which is thirty damage. Didn't kill it, which didn't immediately upset me because spiders can have forty points of armour between its front and back sides. What upset me was that it didn't even turn to an orange outline. Thirty damage, all at the same exact spot, and it didn't even turn orange. Spider is bonkers.

[Mehlan]

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

It explains some issues, but also operates from the assumption that people have not repeatedly been able to observe their shots hitting the spider for no damage; this is not the case. There is now ample video evidence of this happening (there is plenty of it in this thread). The article is arguing that it's very hard to hit spiders, and that's all there is to it. I won't dispute that it is indeed very difficult to hit a spider, but that doesn't change the fact that in addition to their slipperiness they have a serious hit registration issue. OP says "It's very hard to hit spiders, tons of math, need to lead times, etc." Yes, that's great, but it is very very common to have your brain do all that math for you automatically (aren't you glad we had hunter-gatherer ancestors?), get a huge hit and explosion, and do no damage. The post doesn't address that at all, and seems to make the assumuption that if you hit the mech the damage registers- and that's just not the case with spiders. Most people aren't upset that the spider is hard to hit. They're upset that it's hard to hit and that when they DO hit, it usually doesn't hit anyway.

Oh, and while your friend may argue that it's not a spider-specific hit registration problem, there are a dozen videos of a spot right near the CT where shots just vanish for no damage on spiders. So the initial assumption is wrong. Here, let me link you one:

Great now go find the video using the same weapon showing where the spider does take damage, and the one with it showing a jenner absorbing damage on an arm(ie: hits, but no damage shown)...and then tell us again why/how it's spider specific.

Edited by Mehlan, 22 October 2013 - 07:36 AM.