19 replies to this topic

[HansBlix WMD]

Right now the weight for crit slots tradeoff presented by the Ferro-Fibrous is marginal, except on the lightest mechs. This idea is geared towards making it slightly more appealing.

Summary: The FF upgrade gives mechs the ability to rearranage armor between certain components components, slowly and gradually, and when the mech hasn't sustained any damage for a certain amount of time. The parameters are different for different weight classes for balancing reasons.

Details:
Taking damage resets a timer on your mech to some weight-class dependent value (say, 5 secons for lights, 10 for mediums, 20 for heavies, 40 for assaults). When this timer reachs 0, armor can start redistributing between components.

Each weight class has a maximum flow rate. Let's say we let light classes shift 1 armor point per 1 second, mediums 1 point per 2, heavies 1 point per 3, assaults 1 point per 4. As always, these numbers can be tweaked for balance.

Now for the flow rules: when building your mech, you choose an armor value for each component of your mech (head, 3 front torso, 3 rear torso, 2 arm, 2 leg = 11 components. Aside from the overall value, you are choosing 10 ratio's of armor settings. E.g. head / CT front = ratio 1, left arm / CT front = ratio 2, etc.

What the armor flow will do is redistribute armor until the values reach the the ratios as set by you in the mech lab.

Let's do an example of a fictional medium-class mech with only 3 armor components. Let's say you set it up with values 40/30/30. Now you take an AC/20 to the chest and have values 20/30/30.

What should the armor be after redistribution? We have total armor left of 80, and want find a solution x1,x2,x3 where (Warning: Algebra detected):
x1+x2+x3=80; x1/x2=40/30, and x1/x3=40/30.

If you set this equation up and solve for x1, you find x1+6/4 x1 = 80; 10/4 x1 = 80; x1 = 320/10 = 32. Thus x2=x3 = 24, so your optimal armor values are 32/24/24.

Here is what would happen:

1) First we wait for the damage refresh timer to expire (since it's a medium mech, you must wait 10 seconds).
2) We're a medium mech so we can flow 1 armor every 2 seconds. So every 2 seconds, 1 point of armor would flow from the side torso's to the middle, like so:
20 30 30 after 10 seconds (here is where the timer expires)
21 29 30 after 12 seconds
22 29 29 after 14 seconds
23 28 29 after 16 seconds
....etc...
32 24 24 after 34 seconds

For comparison, a light mech could accomplish this in 5+12 seconds, a medium in 10+24 seconds, a heavy in 20+36 seconds, an assault in 40+48 seconds.

With real mechs with 11 components the algebra is more tedious but always easily solvable (by a computer).

So there you have it, my easily implementable solution to make FF armor truly worth it. Good idea or bad idea?

Edited by HansBlix WMD, 21 October 2013 - 04:23 AM.

[fandre]

Nice idea, would like to see that. But i guess, it will not made it into the game.I'd also like to see special armor with bonus against weapons types. For example FF with bonus against ballistics and malus against LASER and vice versa.

Edited by fandre, 21 October 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[The Black Knight]

So you basically want like T1000 armor on your mech? Uh, yeah no. Battletech/MechWarrior has always tried to be a realistic giant robot universe and having crazy liquid armor from Terminator on your mech is very unrealistic. And while I know you haven't said anything about liquid metal, but unless there are little robotic drones that move armor around how else would this be possible? So no, just no. FF does need some kind of buff to make it relevant but this isn't is it.

[fandre]

the black knight, on 21 October 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

So you basically want like T1000 armor on your mech? Uh, yeah no. Battletech/MechWarrior has always tried to be a realistic giant robot universe and having crazy liquid armor from Terminator on your mech is very unrealistic.

lol. Giant robots with a firing rang of one km ... very realistic. Even nowadays armys would bomb them from surface. Realism is in MW(O) IMHO not a valid argument.

Edited by fandre, 21 October 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[focuspark]

the black knight, on 21 October 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

realistic giant robot universe

I cannot believe you just said that. I fully support your position, but a "realistic giant robot"?

[Kaijin]

the black knight, on 21 October 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

So you basically want like T1000 armor on your mech? Uh, yeah no.

Ummmm - NO, seconded.

[focuspark]

I prefer the suggestion made early where ferrofiberous armor consumed 14 internal slots, reduced armor weight cost by 12.5% AND increased the amount of armor each section could mount by 12.5%.

This would make FF useful and not just another weight saving tool like endo-steel.

I think I'll post an actual thread with the idea.

[Randalf Yorgen]

lol, the Batletech Compendium says something to the effect that although there are many facetts in todays world that would negate some aspects of the Battletech Universe, such as Artillery being the most effective weapon on the battle field (remember when it was writen) For the purposes of this game the Battlemech is the king of the battlefield with an unmatched lethality in terms of ground combat.

As to the OP, There is no self repairing Armour, or nanotech that will repair the armour in the game. (the closest thing is called Harlgel and it's loaded into the space battlecruisers and other jump capable ships, it is a substance that reacts when exposed to space that rapidly expands and seals any hull breaches with an air tight plug. It offers little in the way of armour but it does stop the ship from bleeding out) wait till you get Clan FF then you will see a better benifit from their tech. There should also be Ablative and Reactive Armour in the game. Ablative is laser (not ppc) resistant and reactive is ballistic resistant. Of course there should also be infernal rounds (SRMs rockets packed with napalm that causes a lasting heat problem (30 seconds) for any mechs that get hit, stacking and resetting with each new hit before the 30 seconds is up.) Thunder LRMs (if you want to talk about splash damage) and I think three different types of LBX ammo. (Slugs, Shells, and Shot) There is potential to add much to the game, but without a crystal ball we will just have to wait and see.

[Strum Wealh]

the black knight, on 21 October 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

So you basically want like T1000 armor on your mech? Uh, yeah no. Battletech/MechWarrior has always tried to be a realistic giant robot universe and having crazy liquid armor from Terminator on your mech is very unrealistic. And while I know you haven't said anything about liquid metal, but unless there are little robotic drones that move armor around how else would this be possible? So no, just no. FF does need some kind of buff to make it relevant but this isn't is it.

I was thinking that what the OP is suggesting sounds suspiciously like the Reactive Armor Hardener from EVE Online.
"The Reactive Armor Hardener possesses an advanced nano membrane that reacts to armor layer damage by shifting between resistances over time. This makes it able to align its defenses against whichever incoming damage types are prevalent."
However, the OP's suggestion is actually shifting physical armor across locations rather than shifting the charge/composition of said armor from resisting one type of damage to another... neither of which happens in, or is thematically appropriate for, BattleTech/MechWarrior.

About the nearest in-universe thing is the Clans' "HarJel" systems, which only act as a sealant rather than replacement armor (e.g. it likely has a very low BAR and thus provides about as much protection against an actual weapon system as a piece of sheet-metal).

Still, the answer to the OP's suggestion should be "no".

[focuspark]

The OP is looking for shield balancing from StarTrek Online which allows the remaining HP from shields in one quadrant to be transferred at a limited rate to another quadrant.

[HansBlix WMD]

I find it interesting that in a game which is neither realistic nor true to the Battletech universe and lore, an idea is rejected simply because it is either supposedly not realistic nor previously encountered in Battletech lore.

Why not discuss the idea's merits on its own?

[Modo44]

This is not even lostech, it is plain ridiculous. Instead of suggesting that armor "flow" to where you get hit, maybe learn to twist your torso and dodge using Jump Jets.

[FinsT]

I kind of agree with the Black Knight, but ok, i'll comment the idea's merits on its own.

- this will definitely affect efficiency of snipers. Say i am running a dual-gauss jager. And i manage to shoot enemy's sniper twice in his central torso, coring him. Add the mechanic you proposed, and in a minute or so, the guy changes from badly wounded mech into almost brand new - 60 damage to a central torso will be changed to -5...-6 damage to all parts of his mech. Instead of being extremely very careful for the remainder of the game (which reduces his combat efficiency), and instead of having good chance to be finished by my teammates in no time, - he'll turn to brave and dangerous enemy;
- legging lights might become mightily problematic, considering times you mentioned; upon taking some damage to their legs, they'll back off for a while, and most of the damage taken will heal;
- massive shift in weapons' efficiency may be a consequence too: namely, weapons which do pinpoint damage - will be at a disadvantage, and weapons which do "distributed" damage with high total DPS - might become a "must have" (such as SRMs, LRMs, LBX-10);
- the mechanic itself is counter-intuitive. The name "ferro-fibrous" does not suppose any "auto-heal" or "redistributing" ability. Plus, realism completely aside, there is very long tradition about febro-fibrous armor in Mechwarrior games - and it is that such armor simply weights less, but otherwise functions just the same as usual armor (or very similar).

End result? The idea itself is interesting, yet in Mechwarrior game - with its traditions and its weapons, - implementation of this idea might be a source of problems. I feel sorry to say so, especially given good amount of effort and thought the author of the topic had put into the idea; but it's my honest opinion. But, anyhows, - o7 !

[HansBlix WMD]

Modo44, on 21 October 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

This is not even lostech, it is plain ridiculous. Instead of suggesting that armor "flow" to where you get hit, maybe learn to twist your torso and dodge using Jump Jets.

Let's apply your logic to the recently implemented ghost heat, which violates basic laws of thermodynamics and has no root in battletech.

[HansBlix WMD]

FinsT, on 21 October 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

I kind of agree with the Black Knight, but ok, i'll comment the idea's merits on its own.

- this will definitely affect efficiency of snipers. Say i am running a dual-gauss jager. And i manage to shoot enemy's sniper twice in his central torso, coring him. Add the mechanic you proposed, and in a minute or so, the guy changes from badly wounded mech into almost brand new - 60 damage to a central torso will be changed to -5...-6 damage to all parts of his mech. Instead of being extremely very careful for the remainder of the game (which reduces his combat efficiency), and instead of having good chance to be finished by my teammates in no time, - he'll turn to brave and dangerous enemy;
- legging lights might become mightily problematic, considering times you mentioned; upon taking some damage to their legs, they'll back off for a while, and most of the damage taken will heal;
- massive shift in weapons' efficiency may be a consequence too: namely, weapons which do pinpoint damage - will be at a disadvantage, and weapons which do "distributed" damage with high total DPS - might become a "must have" (such as SRMs, LRMs, LBX-10);
- the mechanic itself is counter-intuitive. The name "ferro-fibrous" does not suppose any "auto-heal" or "redistributing" ability. Plus, realism completely aside, there is very long tradition about febro-fibrous armor in Mechwarrior games - and it is that such armor simply weights less, but otherwise functions just the same as usual armor (or very similar).

End result? The idea itself is interesting, yet in Mechwarrior game - with its traditions and its weapons, - implementation of this idea might be a source of problems. I feel sorry to say so, especially given good amount of effort and thought the author of the topic had put into the idea; but it's my honest opinion. But, anyhows, - o7 !

I think your comments on my idea (not on battletech, which again I think are irrelevant) are spot on, and exactly what I was trying to accomplish, namely solving 2 problems:
1) making FF worthwhile
2) increasing the viability of non-pin-point damage type weapons and situations.

I think the main problem with lights (and let's be honest, the only real problem here is the spider) is hit detection - any meaningful alpha from a larger mech and that light is maimed or dead even if he has max armor everywhere, and they benefit the least from the armor redistribution.

To me, the major flaw remaining in the metagame is that there are only two methods for aiming:
1) If your target is a light, aim for the leg
2) If your target has an XL engine, aim for ST (rear is possible)
3) Otherwise, aim CT (rear if possible)

There is generally no incentive to do anything else. To me this is a great sin in a battletech game.(The only real exceptions being centurion AC/20 arm, hunchback hunch, and maybe atlas RT).

This kind of mechanic would encourage aiming for components with less armor allocated to them, since you have a greater chance to inflict internal damage before the armor redistribution kicks in.

[Deathz Jester]

No, its a bad idea, and it'll never make it in game because you're name isnt Paul Annoyou Inouye

[Modo44]

HansBlix WMD, on 21 October 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

Let's apply your logic to the recently implemented ghost heat, which violates basic laws of thermodynamics and has no root in battletech.

My logic stands, only you chose to pick on the irrelevant lostech joke. Flowing armor would break game balance in a big way. Ghost heat, bad as it is compared to other solutions, helped to remove some extremely silly (and ultimately boring) builds.

[HansBlix WMD]

Modo44, on 22 October 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

My logic stands, only you chose to pick on the irrelevant lostech joke. Flowing armor would break game balance in a big way. Ghost heat, bad as it is compared to other solutions, helped to remove some extremely silly (and ultimately boring) builds.

I'm with you on the ghost heat - it makes no sense lore-wise or reality-wise but was still a good change overall. That's what I'm saying - just because ideas that don't seem realistic to us or weren't in battletech doesn't mean those ideas are are bad for this game. They might be bad for tabletop or for "Modo44's Super-Realistic Simulation of Giant Robots About a Thousand Years From Now", but does that matter? Oh and if I were a clan scientist I would be working on implementing this.

But more relevantly, why do you think flowing armor would break game balance? I think it would encourage shooting off arms or aiming for the head. Check out Finst's post above and my response.

Edited by HansBlix WMD, 22 October 2013 - 12:27 AM.

[Modo44]

HansBlix WMD, on 22 October 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

But more relevantly, why do you think flowing armor would break game balance? I think it would encourage shooting off arms or aiming for the head. Check out Finst's post above and my response.

The problem remains no matter how much you talk around it: Flowing armor would remove a big skill component from the game. Short pauses behind cover/away from the enemy would obviously be easier than twisting your torso and jumping out of harm's way. The difference in tactics would be enormous, and the mechs that can not realistically take FF (i.e. the heaviest assaults) would become rather useless.

Edited by Modo44, 22 October 2013 - 03:44 AM.

[HansBlix WMD]

I think assaults would have trouble benefiting from this feature for a few reasons.
1) I've given them a longer cool-down time after taking damage and
2) They have real trouble disengaging from a fight

It might help that atlas that led the charge, got cored and retreated, now 5 mins later he has some CT armor to fight with, but outside of that it would have little use for assaults (as you say).

But lights have so little armor already that they hardly benefit from getting that 5-10 armor back to their leg or CT that this would give them, I think it also doesnt help them very much either. Which is fine because they already choose FF armor since they need the weight savings more than they need the crit space.

It's the more mobile mechs in the middle of the weight range (heavier mediums and lighter heavies) that I think would benefit most. Right now you can get a dragon to go 105-112 kph, but why? You just get CT cored anyway because you are fat and an easy target, no matter your speed.

But if you sacrifice weaponry to get FF, now you can use your speed advantage to disengage and get your armor sorted before re-engaging. This won't work if you're trying to run from a pack of Jenners, but it would sure help a lot if you get AC40'd to the CT, manage to run away, and live to fight a few minutes later.

So yes I think it would have an impact on tactics, but it would favor mechs that need the most help right now. Just my opinion though.