Jump to content

Rvn-2/4X Buffs


14 replies to this topic

#1 aniviron

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,752 posts

Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:42 AM

For those of you who read the patch notes, you may have noticed that last week, amidst all the excitement there was a round of balancing done on light mechs. One of the changes was a set of buffs to bring underperforming light mechs up to snuff, and here I'm focusing on the RVN-2X and 4X, who have only just recently lost their "worst light mech" crown to the Locusts. Well, it's been a week since patchday, and the dust has settled a bit, and I've had a lot of time to try out new things and see if they've risen any on the pecking order among non-locust lights. Since I'm sure most of you were able to miss this particular buff given the lack of Ravens on the field, here it is:

Quote

- Raven RVN-2X, -4X:
- Increased maximum engine size to 275
- Increased turning rate by 10%


Well, that's it. So is it enough? I'd give that a pretty definitive no. While it's great to finally be able to take ten internal engine heatsinks, the RVN-2/4X are still pretty definitively worse than the Jenners, Spiders, and probably even COM-2D. To try and give you an understanding of the problems facing these mechs, I will explain what the problem with the RVN-4X is, and compare the RVN-2X to the JR7-K, a mech that is considered to be worse is virtually every way than the other variants for its chassis.

To start, the simple things: The RVN-4X has actually benefitted from this change. While it's still impossible to run a sensible loadout on this mech due to a dearth of useful hardpoints, trolling just got a little faster. The stock loadout is probably the best 'serious' build for it, which is 2xmg, 2xmlas, and 1xsrm6. This is pretty underwhelming firepower, though that's at least partially due to the SRM's woes right now; but mainly, it leaves the mech almost completely unequipped to deal with other lights, as non-streak SRMs are a crapshoot against bad pilots and a terrible choice against good ones, while 2mlas + 2mg is too short-ranged and too low damage to deal with anything on its own. It also has the benefit of requiring the user to balance three weapons with very different firing mechanics for a very low-damage payoff.

That said, the AC20 raven is now even faster, and that can only mean more fun for everyone. If you're willing to forego armor and heatsinks and skimp on the ammo a bit, you can manage an XL275 with an AC20, and maybe even one mlas if you're fine with removing the armor completely.

The RVN-2X is a little trickier. It doesn't seem as tough to make it work at first, especially given that it can run a pretty traditional light-style loadout with 4mlas + srm6. But compare it to the JR7-K, which is widely considered to be worthless as it is strictly inferior to the JR7-D in every way save for the one extra module slot it gets.

RVN-2X: 4E hardpoints, 1M
JR7-K: 4E hardpoints, 1M.
Advantage: JR7-K. The K and 2X share the same hardpoint configuration and tonnage, which makes them ideal comparisons. The RVN-2X is on fairly level footing here, but loses out to the K as even though it has two more missile tubes, most of your damage in either of these mechs will come from the lasers and the 2X has its energy hardpoints split between the torso and arm, whereas the K gets them all in the arm, allowing for better aiming flexibility and convergence.

RVN-2X: 275 engine max
JR7-K: 300 engine max
Advantage: JR7-K. The K clearly beats the 2X here again, gaining an additional 25 engine rating which equates to 12kph, or 140.0 vs 152.7 (with speed tweak). This not only makes the Jenner more suitable for scouting and capping, it also gives it a significant survivability advantage; any light pilot will tell you that speed and agility are the only things keeping you from becoming best friends with AC20 rounds. Adding insult to injury, this also lets the K store another internal heatsink, and freeing crit slots is always precious on a light mech that has to mount both Endo and Ferro to survive.

RVN-2X: 120 degrees of twist, 20 degrees of torso pitch, 30 arm pitch
JR7-K: 120 degrees of twist, 20 degrees of torso pitch, 30 arm pitch
Advantage: Neither! Though it is worth pointing out that the JR7-K gets to take better advantage of the higher arm pitch due to having more arm-mounted guns.

RVN-2X jumpjet max: 0
JR7-K jumpjet max: 5
Advantage: JR7-K, silly goose. Having jumpjets is vital to being able to outmaneuver your opponent in a light. They allow the user to change directions suddenly, twist very rapidly, cross long gaps at high speed, and escape vertically where mechs without jjs are trapped. No competition here.

RVN-2X module slots: 2
JR-7K module slots: 3
Advantage: JR7-K. You can take more modules with the K, which might not matter to many mechs, but given that lights are often required to scout, cap, and engage in combat, that extra module slot is often the difference between winning from cap accel or failing by a little bit, or getting that extra edge in frantic 1v1 light combat where you can keep lock thanks to 360 target when your opponent can't.

The final point I'd discuss is a bit subjective as there are no hard numbers to compare here, but it is an important point: hitboxes. Both mechs have a pretty serious weakness; the Jenners have a large center torso, while the Ravens have gigantic legs. Overall I'd say that the balance between the two was relatively even until the introduction of ghost heat and the buffs + tweaks to SSRM2s.

While there was a point when having the huge CT made Jenners a walking snack thanks to the common 40-60 point alphas being tossed around, ghost heat has dropped the average pinpoint alpha down to about 20 (ac20, 2ppc, 4xac5, etc). This gives the Jenner a much better chance to spread damage away from the CT, where a shot that would once kill now just maims. The Ravens, on the other hand, are much more likely to lose the more lightly-armored legs, as they can't be covered by twisting in addition to being more fragile. While this would be easily in Raven's favor in a larger mech that can armor up, losing a leg in a light is a death sentence, which means that it's far preferable to have the section that gets you killed when blown up have less armor.

The preference of SSRM2s to seek limbs in concert with their bananas 2.5 is also a pretty significant disadvantage to the Raven. When the missiles were evenly distributed to various components, the Raven maintained a bit of an advantage, but with most of the shots going to the leg and the extreme squishiness of the Raven's legs, the 2X is streak bait for all the much faster lights and even the mediums that can keep up with SSRMs- they don't have to chase long before it's a stationary target.

So yep, this post got a bit longer than I intended. The TL; DR? The Raven 2X and 4X are both still terrible mechs and there's no reason to pilot either of them unless you want to troll with heavy ballistics or you're roleplaying as someone who hates Jenners.

#2 FupDup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 26,888 posts
  • LocationThe Keeper of Memes

Posted 22 October 2013 - 03:45 AM

For starters, give the 2X and 4X two extra weapon hardpoints--they're supposed to be the "combat" variants after all, so let them outgun a Jenner. Additionally, an extra AMS hardpoint (to help ward off SSRMs) and throw in an extra module slot as a cherry on top.

Edited by FupDup, 22 October 2013 - 03:52 AM.


#3 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:57 AM

The 2X is still bad. Adding say a 5th Energy Hardpoint might salvage it (5 med Jenner-Fs are popular and effective) or adding a 2nd missile point (making it a poor man's grounded Jenner-D) would be alright. Either option should be added to the Raven's Left Arm though.

The 4X...

RVN-4X

This is the best I can come up with.

If a hardpoint would be added, just add one energy point to the LT. A prototype build would look kinda like this:
RVN-4X

I'm not sure what you can ultimately do to make the 4X better, but it's kinda hard to go wrong with the adding more energy points on a light mech.

#4 DONTOR

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,806 posts
  • LocationStuck on a piece of Commando in my Ice Ferret

Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:55 PM

not bad bulds death, but in that mech putting ammo in the jump jet capable ravens legs would mean destructon. Put that ammo in the AC5 arm, I play 4X more than all other raven variants, and that ballistic arm rarely if ever gets taken out.

#5 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostDONTOR, on 22 October 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

not bad bulds death, but in that mech putting ammo in the jump jet capable ravens legs would mean destructon. Put that ammo in the AC5 arm, I play 4X more than all other raven variants, and that ballistic arm rarely if ever gets taken out.


I had actually forgotten that (although I don't do that as much with the Cents). That leg hitbox has changed things dramatically for this mech.

#6 aniviron

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,752 posts

Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:06 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 22 October 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

The 2X is still bad. Adding say a 5th Energy Hardpoint might salvage it (5 med Jenner-Fs are popular and effective) or adding a 2nd missile point (making it a poor man's grounded Jenner-D) would be alright. Either option should be added to the Raven's Left Arm though.

The 4X...

RVN-4X

This is the best I can come up with.

If a hardpoint would be added, just add one energy point to the LT. A prototype build would look kinda like this:
RVN-4X

I'm not sure what you can ultimately do to make the 4X better, but it's kinda hard to go wrong with the adding more energy points on a light mech.


I agree that both mechs could be salvaged by the addition of just one hardpoint; on the 2X, I actually think with the lower engine cap you'd see people (specifically, me) running it as an easy-to-leg HBK 4SP with another missile hardpoint or nearly the same as now but with one more mlas on the energy side; either would make it a reasonable alternative to a Jenner, making the chassis what it's meant to be- a slower, combat-focused light with just a little more punch than the Jenner.

The 4X would also do well with one more of any kind of hardpoint, even ballistic. Three is the cutoff point for making machineguns useful/worth it, so adding one slot more would work with that. One more mlas will never go amiss on a light. Or adding a second missile hardpoint would make a 2ssrm2 + 2mlas + 2mg setup that would be a pretty reasonable light combatant.

#7 NRP

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Fire
  • Fire
  • 3,949 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:21 PM

In a way, it reminds me of the Pretty Baby situation, in that someone at PGI thinks speed on it's own is some kind of huge advantage. All things being equal, more speed is better, but if you can't pack the firepower, extra speed is useless.

#8 aniviron

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,752 posts

Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostNRP, on 22 October 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

In a way, it reminds me of the Pretty Baby situation, in that someone at PGI thinks speed on it's own is some kind of huge advantage. All things being equal, more speed is better, but if you can't pack the firepower, extra speed is useless.


Well to make an accurate comparison here too, it would be as though the Misery could mount a 475 engine whereas the PB is stuck with not only a less hardpoints and worse hitboxes but also a smaller engine.

#9 FupDup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 26,888 posts
  • LocationThe Keeper of Memes

Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:56 PM

View Postaniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:


Well to make an accurate comparison here too, it would be as though the Misery could mount a 475 engine whereas the PB is stuck with not only a less hardpoints and worse hitboxes but also a smaller engine.

Not to be picky, but a 475 engine weighs 243 tons (since PGI combined gyro and stuff weight into the engine, it would be even more). Even an XL 475 is 121.5 tons, and XXL is 81 tons. :blink:

#10 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:13 PM

View PostNRP, on 22 October 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

In a way, it reminds me of the Pretty Baby situation, in that someone at PGI thinks speed on it's own is some kind of huge advantage. All things being equal, more speed is better, but if you can't pack the firepower, extra speed is useless.


On the Awesome, it technically is.... except that the rest of the Awesomes outside of the 9M+PB do not benefit.

The PB was literally frankenstructed by PGI.

#11 Treye Snow

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 160 posts
  • LocationNot where I want to be

Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:38 PM

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...426fa2d25c1ca8b

This is one hell of a great build for this mech.

#12 aniviron

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,752 posts

Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:36 AM

View PostFupDup, on 22 October 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Not to be picky, but a 475 engine weighs 243 tons (since PGI combined gyro and stuff weight into the engine, it would be even more). Even an XL 475 is 121.5 tons, and XXL is 81 tons. :blink:


Yeah, I know, or at least knew it would be massive; my point was more that you give a mech that's better already a bigger engine cap as well.

#13 aniviron

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,752 posts

Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:40 AM

View PostMr Terribad, on 22 October 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...426fa2d25c1ca8b

This is one hell of a great build for this mech.


Just want to say that I've been playing this build with a 275XL for the last week, and it is far and away the best RVN-4X build I have ever run, period. Thanks much for the suggestion!

#14 Foxfire

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,904 posts

Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:48 AM

The 2X is absolutely horrible and will remain so as long as it doesn't get an engine size comparable to the 3L or Jenners.

The 4X, however, can be a bit of a beast if used properly. Against other lights, it is true that it is not ideally suited due to only one missile hard point. You can still put up a pretty good fight if you know how to properly utilize JJ's in light battles(the only thing that I struggle against in my are specific light hunter builds of the Jenners D's and Raven 3L's). The true strength of the 4X is all about being a striker and hit and run harasser of heavier mechs.

I think the bigger issue with the Ravens is the hitbox issue(with the massive leg and back hit boxes) and the fact that there is no reason to take a 2X out other than mastering the other variants.

#15 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:04 AM

View PostMr Terribad, on 22 October 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...426fa2d25c1ca8b

This is one hell of a great build for this mech.


I'm not even sure why an XL265 isn't used over the XL260 outside of the fact that one of the Jagers carries the XL260.


View PostFoxfire, on 27 October 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

The 2X is absolutely horrible and will remain so as long as it doesn't get an engine size comparable to the 3L or Jenners.


The 2X competes mostly with the Jenner-K, so an engine upgrade is not that significant an issue at the moment, but the lack of JJs. Even the Jenner-K gets an additional module slot, and it happens to be the "worst of the Jenners". The Raven-2X has nothing to distinguish from them outside of the large leg hitbox they have.





4 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 4 guests, 0 anonymous users