16 replies to this topic

[GODzillaGSPB]

Armor in MWO is just another pool of hitpoints, a second layer of hitpoints over the internal ones. When an enemy has 5 points of armor left in a location and you hit him for 10 points of damage, his armor is gone and his internals are hit.

Especially with the tendency towards high-alpha-gameplay - which not only means that the mech is build for a high-alpha damage, but also that the player usually and often only does alpha strikes instead of firing his weapons individually - this means very fast deaths. "One-hit"-deaths in medium mechs are no rarity anymore.

What to do against this, without nerfing weapons, without adding overly complicated mechanics (ghost heat) or penealizing people who want to play that way? Well, I certainly don't have THE perfect solution, but I have an idea:

ARMOR THAT FEELS LIKE ARMOR

Instead of another pool of hitpoints, armor should work a bit different:


1.) When there's 1 point of armor left and this location is hit, this last point of armor should absorb ALL the damage of the hit, then set to zero. Only the next hit will hit the internals.

Think of armor as plates of armor. A laser hit melts the last plate away and by vaporizing, the damage of the beam is absorbed. If hit by a rocket or projectile, that armor plate is blasted away, exposing the internals to follow up hits.


2.) To take this a step further, this mechanic should expand to alphas. Incoming fire on the same location and in a certain, very short timeframe, then counts as one massive hit to that location. Armor is zero-ed, but internals are not damaged.

This way, a synchronized alpha of, lets say, two ac40-Jager does not core a medium mech, not right away at least. It almost kills him, it makes him ripe for the coupe de grace.


Now before you call BS and think this sounds unfair, let me remind you that...

- this would of course work for all mechs, so even your ac40-Jager is better protected
- imho this would make fights to last a bit longer and make them more interesting
- it's a nerf-free approach, at least in regard to weapons; it's an armor-buff


YAY or NAY? ^^

[Moses Lanknau]

i think the problem is not the armor system at all, the first 'ingame footage' has us all promised a soloution to this problem, well many other things were promised too ...

[Karl Streiger]

So you are describing some kind of Mechwarrior 4 system - there you was as well not able to kill a enemy with a single shot. Even Dual AC 20s into the head - even 3 of a kind were not able to kill a mech even when all shots hit the head.

I don't know if that would be a good or a bad design - although I really think that the damage inflicted to a armored location should be staggered - based on incoming damage as well as on remaining armor.

[FinsT]

I am unsure about this part: " Incoming fire on the same location and in a certain, very short timeframe, then counts as one massive hit to that location. " So let's say i play with 3 friends, and we are quite good coordinating our attacks. Quite often, we end up hitting a central torso of the same opponent in the same time with, say, AC/20s. Not exactly the same time, - but within that "very short timeframe" you are mentioning. And then what, many/most of these shots will be wasted - soaked by this mechanic?

In other words, this would affect teamplay - and the better coordinated and good-shot lance/company is, the more penalty would there be. Not exactly attractive mechanic to me.

I agree with the intention and motivation, but i doubt about proposed method to do it. Perhaps it could be a bit better if internals would be allowed to be damaged, but for said "very short timeframe" it wouldn't be allowed for the part to take critical hits nor to drop its health below 1 (i.e. be destroyed)? This way, if an Atlas is having 1 armor remaining on its central torso, and i unload a big alpha to it, - i wouldn't lose practically all the damage (and Atlas' central torso internal structure is what, ~50 health?) - yet Atlas wouldn't die right away even if i'd do some 60-points alpha. I'd still have to finish it off - yet it's so much easier to do so when previous alpha got his central torso's internal structure from ~50 to, say, ~10. And it feels to me 'em Atlases are durable enough as it is. In the same time, for lights and mediums, it'd be little difference since they don't have that much internal structure health anyways.

Edited by FinsT, 20 October 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[Phlyk]

@FinsT: If you are such excellent players, with great coordination (and I have no proof either way), then I'm sure you can just co-ordinate your timing to fire in series instead of all at almost exactly the same time?

In fact, it would be a penalty to lone-wolfing if anything, as being in a team would allow you tco coordinate your fire so that the next person doesn't shoot 'til the armour vaporises.

@OP: I really want to make armour more awesome, and I do like the idea, it's a shame we aren't in Beta anymore so I doubt we'd be able to give it a shot.

[Firewuff]

There is also the crits mechanic. It works great. I dont mind a dual AC20 Jagger being able to do that because my locust can get 2-3 kills where people have stripped armor

[FinsT]

Phlyk - ah, man, i didn't mean people i play with - and myself, - are any great. It's just that i'm sure there are some teams which are that great. Me, i am still much noobish in MWO.

As for firing in series, - easier said than done, because it'd require on-the-fly estimation of how much armor the target has remaining, calculation of how many people need to fire to strip its armor, near-certainty that they won't miss (which they can do if they are under heavy ballistic fire for example), and "wingmen" being somehow able to sort out who's "armor-stripping" and who's "finishinh up" - which also needs to be done on-the-fly, by wingmen themselves, coolectively, since it's not always that same wingmen have a line of sight to the target which the leader gave order to kill. In practice there is no time to do that sort of complex estimations and coordination, as far as i know. Quickly naming an enemy - like, "Alpha", or "Bravo", or "Hotel!", - and then seeing either all or at least some of "wingmen" who have line of sight to do quite precisely center torso (or, right torso if it's Atlas, for example; etc) - is, on other hand, not just possible, but very common and widely used coordination method (simply, focusing lance's fire).

Edited by FinsT, 20 October 2013 - 11:55 PM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

FinsT, on 20 October 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

I am unsure about this part: " Incoming fire on the same location and in a certain, very short timeframe, then counts as one massive hit to that location. " So let's say i play with 3 friends, and we are quite good coordinating our attacks. Quite often, we end up hitting a central torso of the same opponent in the same time with, say, AC/20s. Not exactly the same time, - but within that "very short timeframe" you are mentioning. And then what, many/most of these shots will be wasted - soaked by this mechanic?

In other words, this would affect teamplay - and the better coordinated and good-shot lance/company is, the more penalty would there be. Not exactly attractive mechanic to me.

I agree with the intention and motivation, but i doubt about proposed method to do it. Perhaps it could be a bit better if internals would be allowed to be damaged, but for said "very short timeframe" it wouldn't be allowed for the part to take critical hits nor to drop its health below 1 (i.e. be destroyed)? This way, if an Atlas is having 1 armor remaining on its central torso, and i unload a big alpha to it, - i wouldn't lose practically all the damage (and Atlas' central torso internal structure is what, ~50 health?) - yet Atlas wouldn't die right away even if i'd do some 60-points alpha. I'd still have to finish it off - yet it's so much easier to do so when previous alpha got his central torso's internal structure from ~50 to, say, ~10. And it feels to me 'em Atlases are durable enough as it is. In the same time, for lights and mediums, it'd be little difference since they don't have that much internal structure health anyways.

To be absolutely honest...I had the idea while beeing farmed.

It was one full lance of ac40 Jagers. They where just walking over Forest Coloney, through the open water, in a line. Whenever someone dared to attack them --> single ac/160, insta-death.

Yes, my proposed method kinda makes teamplay harder. Instead of coordinating a single attack, you'd need to coordinate a staggered attack or a follow-up-attack. I admit it: This is meant to be a "cheese-drop-nerf".

[FinsT]

Ah, i see. My erspect to your honesty, sir.

But then, i don't think teamplay is to be "toned down" by measures like this... Yes, it sometimes is very harsh to be stomped on by a premade. However, this is important part, perhaps even much required part - because it is a motive, and quite strong one, to become a part of a group oneself. And to do good while going with it, too. I guess it's good for the game as a whole.

Also, ok, say we "nerfed" a bit instant-kill weapons like AC/20, gauss, ER PPCs (to lesser degree). But then there are other ways to make a cheesy lance. 1 good spotter + 3 asasult-class LRM boats? Even more harsh than AC/160. 4 jagers each going 4x AC/2 (a bit of ghost heat - can bbe easily managed)? That's 256 damage per 4 seconds (one AC/20 cooldown), with ~3 times higher range for full damage and 2+ times higher projectile speed. And insane cockpit shake for the victim, too. Also more harsh than AC/160 - the 4 would drop pretty much anyone in 2...2.5 seconds. ERLLs? Four x4 ERLL 'mech, assuming perfect aim, do 144 damage in ~2.5 seconds, and it's continuos damage (unlike AC/20s); thing is, ERLLs do full damage at 2+ times higher range than AC/20s, and thus can be overall as deadly, or even a bit deadlier, than AC/20s... See, every class of weapons have means to "circumvent" the restriction you proposed - not instant, but continuous / frequent damage. Assuming that "single-hit" period to count would be comparable to "official" alpha-strike duration, that is - which is 0.5 seconds...

I think, the best anyone could do about "premades are cheesy and OP too much!!!" issue, - is to become a part of a good premade (i.e. team, or even some few good teams). I suspect it mostly has to do with who are many people which are "PuGs" - which are folks who never been in forum, at Smurfy's, and simply play very casually (you can see lots of them while spectating), - and who are people in your average "premade", which are much more capable mechwarriors on average. Possibly times more capable. Coordination and voice chat certainly add on top of that, but still, i think it's mainly abilities of individual players which make so many "premades" to be so relatively powerful and "stomping". Said abilities include _individual_ ability to tactically act as a part of a team, of course.

[IceLom]

Nothing like my ac20 doing 0 damage because an ally hit the last point of armor with his machine gun.....

Silly idea.

[Soda Popinsky]

That's not how armor actually works. With a WWII era tank, if a tank round hits the armor, it will either penetrate or not penetrate. If it does penetrate the armor, it doesn't magically stop damaging things internally.

If anything, MWO armor is much more survivable than real modern armor for heavy hitting weapons. Modern tank armor is a bunch of reactive plates, each of which can take exactly one hit from modern anti-tank weapons (either HEAT rounds or kinetic energy penetrators). If MWO armor were like that, hitting twice in the same exact spot would hit the internals no matter how intact the rest of the areas armor is.

Is there anything in the lore that would support armor working like the OP described? Looking at the Sarna site, it looks like armor is ablative composite armor. So it would react more like a very tough version of WWII era armor, non-reactive / explosive.

TT and MW games have always handled armor penetration in a very simplistic manner conducive to dice games, and most gamers understanding. If things were modeled more like ARMA, WWII OnLine or Red Orchestra, really big weapons (AC/20) would ALWAYS penetrate thinly armor mechs and likely do critical damage, depending on angle. Might not be a very fun game.

[focuspark]

I like EVE Online's approach to armor. I'm not sure how it should get adapted to MWO, but I think it's worth looking at.

EVE has three 'rings' or HP. Shields, Armor, Internals. As an outer ring degrades it passes some of the damage it would absorb into the internal ring. Basically 50% of the absent percentage is transferred through.

Example: a ship with 75% armor is hit for 100 damage. 75% of the damage is applied to the armor only. The remaining 25% is applied evenly to the armor and the internal structure with armor shortfalls damaging internals. Therefore @ 90% armor, 5% passed to internals; @ 30%, 35% passes to internals; and so forth.

How is this different? Well the 75% applied the armor only never gets to the internals, even if there's only 1 pt of armor. The trade off being as your armor ablates damage starts seeping into internals while you still have some armor scraps attached.

Soda Popinsky, on 21 October 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

That's not how armor actually works. With a WWII era tank, if a tank round hits the armor, it will either penetrate or not penetrate. If it does penetrate the armor, it doesn't magically stop damaging things internally.

If anything, MWO armor is much more survivable than real modern armor for heavy hitting weapons. Modern tank armor is a bunch of reactive plates, each of which can take exactly one hit from modern anti-tank weapons (either HEAT rounds or kinetic energy penetrators). If MWO armor were like that, hitting twice in the same exact spot would hit the internals no matter how intact the rest of the areas armor is.

Is there anything in the lore that would support armor working like the OP described? Looking at the Sarna site, it looks like armor is ablative composite armor. So it would react more like a very tough version of WWII era armor, non-reactive / explosive.

TT and MW games have always handled armor penetration in a very simplistic manner conducive to dice games, and most gamers understanding. If things were modeled more like ARMA, WWII OnLine or Red Orchestra, really big weapons (AC/20) would ALWAYS penetrate thinly armor mechs and likely do critical damage, depending on angle. Might not be a very fun game.

BT armor has to be a mix of the huge plates of yore and the modern reactive armor. Something like hundreds to smaller reactive plates. Eitherway, it's might as well be Elvish Chainmail because it's all fantasy anyways :-p

[Soda Popinsky]

focuspark, on 21 October 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

BT armor has to be a mix of the huge plates of yore and the modern reactive armor. Something like hundreds to smaller reactive plates. Eitherway, it's might as well be Elvish Chainmail because it's all fantasy anyways :-p

True. But if the OP is going to suggest that MWO armor should act like armor, I thought it might be good to point out how armor actually acts. As I said, I don't think a very realistic armor model would work well in this game.

[focuspark]

Soda Popinsky, on 21 October 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

True. But if the OP is going to suggest that MWO armor should act like armor, I thought it might be good to point out how armor actually acts. As I said, I don't think a very realistic armor model would work well in this game.

"Armor" as the OP says would have a mechanic where it reduces damage by x points per hit.

Example: CT of an Atlas has 3 tons of armor therefore all incoming damage is reduced by 3. A PPC stikes the CT, the armor absorbs 3 pts and 7 transfer to the internals.

This would "unfun" as all mechs would melt quickly and small weapons become totally useless instantly.

[Escef]

So, you want to change armor to be unrealistic in a different way? Eh. I mean, the MWO/CBT universe is one where a trooper in battle armor can take a direct hit from a PPC or AC10, pick himself up, and return fire.

To certain degree, I understand your problem. Being the victim of focused fire sucks. But I don't think your proposed changes will do much to stop organized groups from using it. It would take a few days or a couple weeks for them to adapt, and then you'd still have the same thing happening.

[KingCobra]

I voted yes armor does need to be fixed the current alpha meta is insane the weapons far overpower the armor. So its a two part problem strengthen the armor and get rid of the alpha shot or lesson incoming concentrated weapons fire.

[Soda Popinsky]

focuspark, on 21 October 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

"Armor" as the OP says would have a mechanic where it reduces damage by x points per hit.

Example: CT of an Atlas has 3 tons of armor therefore all incoming damage is reduced by 3. A PPC stikes the CT, the armor absorbs 3 pts and 7 transfer to the internals.

Re-read the OP. He states no damage occurs to internals until AFTER the armor has been blasted away. There is no mention of tons = damage points absorbed. He states if an AC20 hits a CT with 1 point of armor, the AC20 with vaporize the 1 point of armor, and STOP DOING DAMAGE. Sort of the opposite of what you state he stated.