131 replies to this topic

[KhanCipher]

Paul McKenzie, on 24 October 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

You shouldn't be building your mech around one type of weapon, period.

AWS-8Q, HBK-4P, CPLT-A1, any of the Jagermechs, TDR-5SS, BLR-1G.

[aniviron]

Paul McKenzie, on 24 October 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Whatever we do can we please not take the game anywhere near where we were prior to these nerfs. A mix of all weapons being used is a million times better than only ppc gauss and ll being used. You shouldn't be building your mech around one type of weapon, period.

KhanCipher, on 25 October 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

AWS-8Q, HBK-4P, CPLT-A1, any of the Jagermechs, TDR-5SS, BLR-1G.

Don't forget all of the Locusts, the JR7-F, COM-1B and 2D, BJ1-X, and QKD-5G and 5K.

Face it guy KhanCipher is quoting, there are tons of mechs that have fairly limited hardpoint options, because they're boats in canon. Even in TT, basing your mech around one type of weapon system is an effective and desirable strategy. There needs to be a place for this kind of mech in MWO; the way to balance this is not to force every single mech and player to carry a mixed loadout, but rather to balance the weapon systems in such a way that not doing so is a major risk.

This is very doable, and is even done very well in MWO, but only for one weapon system- the LRM. Right now, taking an all-LRM loadout can net you some decent rewards if done right, and before The Great Nerfing, was a very viable tactic. But anyone who carries nothing but LRMs will tell you that they are incredibly vulnerable, always just one ambush away from dying without being able to return fire, or hoping that the enemy's Ravens aren't playing it smart with their teammates. The LRM was an incredibly effective weapon system when boated, but taking no backup weapons to increase your ability to do your main job meant taking big risks. They're so close to getting it right with the PPC, but the three nerfs it got were too many at once. If they'd kept the projectile speed at 2000m/s, it would be a devastating mid-long range weapon that was absolutely boned the moment its cover was blown and left overheating and exposed.

That's what needs to happen to every other kind of weapon. Good gameplay balance isn't the devs saying, "You take a mixed loadout or else you get harsh arbitrary penalties for playing optimally!" Rather, good gameplay balance is the player saying to himself, "Woah, I'd better be careful taking nothing but [weapon x], if I don't play well, the enemy will be able to kill me easily. Maybe I should devote some tonnage to making sure that doesn't happen."

[MisterFiveSeven]

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

Because if the mechs are properly balanced then no mech will have the best hardpoints and no mech will be terrible. That is the entire purpose of implementing a hardpoint system which can be fine tuned. Under the current system there will always be a best and worst mech because PGI has no way of fine tuning balance for each mech.

That will never happen. Your solution will not work because it requires:

1. Weapons to be balanced effectively (lol)
2. A NEW SYSTEM that is also balanced effectively

Once PGI can acheive #1 I will identify your ideas as plausible and relevant. If not, they will continue to be a pipe dream drowning in caveats.

[Bacl]

Death Mallet, on 24 October 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Ghost heat wasn't about "fixing PPCs".

Ghost heat was about fixing rampant boating of all the weapons systems it affects.

You may not like the specifics of the mechanic. . . but the effect of it has definitely improved gameplay and build variety.

Ghost Heat needs to stay. Its fine as is.

I dont really agree on build variety when not long ago 75% of all the weapons in a game were UAC5 and now most are AC5, AC10, Gauss and sometimes an AC20 on a random Atlas. Since ghost heat all energy weapons got moved to the "secondary/ backup" weapons basket and are used exclusively to fill extra tonnage or just support your AC.

We had so much variety during colsed beta and open beta before ECM. Each time there was a meta its because PGI was buffing a weapon system for no apparent reasons, LRM era killed by ECM, 4PPC, SRM splats, 6 large lasers, all killed by the ghost heat and now either you get crushed in few seconds by multiple dakka mechs or you laugh by being hit by franken mechs running 4 different weapon systems because they dont want to overheat. Since we lost the "roles" i find the game rather dull since i always face the same things over and over again...

[1Sascha]

Quote

We had so much variety during colsed beta and open beta before ECM. Each time there was a meta its because PGI was buffing a weapon system for no apparent reasons,

I think this is one of the central points here... the nerfing/tinkering.

Once you start with it, you'll never stop.

1. One nerf on one end will create imbalance on another end or two.
2. Once you start to respond to whines about perceived Über-weapons, the whines just keep on coming and you'll have to do more nerfs.

To prove that second point you'll only have to check the game-balance-section on this forum and its numerous "weapon XY is still a problem"-threads. If it were up to the vocal minority on here, we'd all be running around with small lasers and ACs that shoot cotton-balls, I guess.

This is why (IMO) a developer like PGI should simply stick with one set of values/rules and ignore any whines on forums. If something is actually broken, you'll still look into it and fix it if necessary. But being able to adapt your playstyle and your builds to cope with any type of boat-Mech should be part of the learning curve in this game. There should be terrifying weapons/Mechs/loadouts in this game. Because: Due to the nature of the rules of BT, those builds will only be terrifying in the right hands and will have some serious drawbacks. Hence you'll be able to cope with them if you're capable of choosing the right engagement-tactics for the right enemy.

In short: If you get sniped and insta-killed by a 6 ERPPC Stalker, I'd say there's nothing wrong with the Stalkers or the PPCs. There's something wrong with your playstyle and your way of dealing with PPC-boats. And I think my in-game-experience proves me right here. Time and again I see people simply mindlessly charging the enemy, running off base without even bothering to check what the enemy are doing, stepping out of cover and into an obvious kill-zone because they get fixated on one enemy. Or people actually telling me and my squaddies off for "being cowards" simply because we usually try and fight from cover, mutually supporting each other.

Take MMO WW2 flightsims for example: There were always perceived "Über-Planes" in those games, simply because they were "Über" for a while when they were introduced in real life. Like the FW 190 with its scary 4x20mm cannon loadout. Everyone was afraid of them, and rightly so, but players (at least those that were actually willing to adapt/improve their playstyle) eventually started to adapt to them and started learning how to (and how not to) deal with them. That didn't make the 190 any less deadly in the right hands, but people understood that if they were blown to bits by a 190 that it wasn't because the plane or the 20mm cannon were "Über", but because they (the victims) had made a mistake/ didn't pay attention to their surroundings/simply got owned by a veteran pilot.

BT isn't RL, so sadly there's no way to argue against nerfs by referring to anything from the real world (as you could in a WW2-sim). But I think that's exactly how the BT-rules should be treated in this game: As if they were RL-facts and as if this game were a simulation of those rules/facts.

In short: Make it so that players have to adapt to the system and stop constantly adapting the system to the players/to the "whine of the week".




S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 26 October 2013 - 12:05 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

aniviron, on 25 October 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Don't forget all of the Locusts, the JR7-F, COM-1B and 2D, BJ1-X, and QKD-5G and 5K.

Face it guy KhanCipher is quoting, there are tons of mechs that have fairly limited hardpoint options, because they're boats in canon. Even in TT, basing your mech around one type of weapon system is an effective and desirable strategy. There needs to be a place for this kind of mech in MWO; the way to balance this is not to force every single mech and player to carry a mixed loadout, but rather to balance the weapon systems in such a way that not doing so is a major risk.

This is very doable, and is even done very well in MWO, but only for one weapon system- the LRM. Right now, taking an all-LRM loadout can net you some decent rewards if done right, and before The Great Nerfing, was a very viable tactic. But anyone who carries nothing but LRMs will tell you that they are incredibly vulnerable, always just one ambush away from dying without being able to return fire, or hoping that the enemy's Ravens aren't playing it smart with their teammates. The LRM was an incredibly effective weapon system when boated, but taking no backup weapons to increase your ability to do your main job meant taking big risks. They're so close to getting it right with the PPC, but the three nerfs it got were too many at once. If they'd kept the projectile speed at 2000m/s, it would be a devastating mid-long range weapon that was absolutely boned the moment its cover was blown and left overheating and exposed.

That's what needs to happen to every other kind of weapon. Good gameplay balance isn't the devs saying, "You take a mixed loadout or else you get harsh arbitrary penalties for playing optimally!" Rather, good gameplay balance is the player saying to himself, "Woah, I'd better be careful taking nothing but [weapon x], if I don't play well, the enemy will be able to kill me easily. Maybe I should devote some tonnage to making sure that doesn't happen."

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 26 October 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[Mavairo]

If they are going to insist on the silly ghost heat mechanics... it should be 4 LL.

It's not terribly hard to match and exceed the performance of a 4LL build, -before- the Ghost Heat mechanic was introduced, in most circumstances.

Ghost Heat, whether people wan to admit to it or not was done because of how PGI handled the PPC and nothing more. And because of that, we all get to suffer now, tremendously, over a wide variety of chassis.

[Sandpit]

once again, if you don't alpha every time you hit the trigger this isn't going to be a big deal. If you don't tryo to shoot off every single weapon you have boated then it's not a big deal. If you alpha every time you fire off weapons if affects you (thankfully) to deter alpha strikes as being the main firing solution as opposed to last-ditch efforts like they were meant to be. I boat 4+ LLs all the time and have no issues with heat at all.

[PEEFsmash]

I have to say, I am now firmly in the camp that believes that PPCs and AC20s should be ghost heated.

However, every other weapon should NOT be.

[Khobai]

Quote

I have to say, I am now firmly in the camp that believes that PPCs and AC20s should be ghost heated.

Im firmly in the camp that believes no weapon should be ghost heated. I still believe hardpoint sizes are a much better solution because they impose the same limits as ghost heat, but do so in a way that makes sense and doesnt unfairly punish mechs like the Awesome. An Awesome should be able to use three PPCs without penalty because thats what Awesomes are known for.

[Mavairo]

Khobai, on 26 October 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Im firmly in the camp that believes no weapon should be ghost heated. I still believe hardpoint sizes are a much better solution because they impose the same limits as ghost heat, but do so in a way that makes sense and doesnt unfairly punish mechs like the Awesome. An Awesome should be able to use three PPCs without penalty because thats what Awesomes are known for.

It certainly would go a long way to keep the Awesome's, MWO monicker from being True. It would stop being the Not Awesome.

[Victor Morson]

Khobai, on 26 October 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Im firmly in the camp that believes no weapon should be ghost heated. I still believe hardpoint sizes are a much better solution because they impose the same limits as ghost heat, but do so in a way that makes sense and doesnt unfairly punish mechs like the Awesome. An Awesome should be able to use three PPCs without penalty because thats what Awesomes are known for.

I've repeatedly wondered why they don't apply their Quirk system to specific 'mechs to give them advantages in this regard. If the Awesome could boat 4 PPCs with no problems, it becomes far more attractive overnight.

I think part of it has to do with that screwed up thinking that an Atlas is a "top tier Avatar" and an Awesome is not. Because that makes no sense, when tonnage really isn't everything in the 65-100 range at all; I'd put a Victor or Highlander against an Atlas in a 1:1 every single time.

[l33tworks]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 24 October 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

It'd rather see a module that increases the limit for a specific weapon/weapon type.

I do find it 'unrealistic' that medium lasers are the only ones not suffering.

Not suffering? Tell that to my 9 Medium laser 4P, or the covenant

Edited by l33tworks, 28 October 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

9 ML, even without Ghost heat suffers from bad heat!

[MechFrog1]

Death Mallet, on 24 October 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Ghost heat wasn't about "fixing PPCs".

Ghost heat was about fixing rampant boating of all the weapons systems it affects.

You may not like the specifics of the mechanic. . . but the effect of it has definitely improved gameplay and build variety.

Ghost Heat needs to stay. Its fine as is.

Too bad it didn't fix rampant boating of anything. It's just amazing how quickly you dezgra forget the past.

It was a failed attempt to deal with high alpha pinpoint damage. Of course now that we've seen that it didn't do anything in that regard, the mature thing would be to rip out the overly-complicated failure of a system and go back to the drawing board.

Too bad that would also require eating some crow, therefore we're going to dig in and retain a system that is tremendously harmful to new players and old alike.

Edited by mint frog, 28 October 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

mint frog, on 28 October 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Too bad it didn't fix rampant boating of anything. It's just amazing how quickly you dezgra forget the past.

It was a failed attempt to deal with high alpha pinpoint damage. Of course now that we've seen that it didn't do anything in that regard, the mature thing would be to rip out the overly-complicated failure of a system and go back to the drawing board.

Too bad that would also require eating some crow, therefore we're going to dig in and retain a system that is tremendously harmful to new players and old alike.

Kraken-3 Boating at its 8 LRM15 finest
Piranha- Boating at its 12 MG fastest
Nova- Boating at its 10 ML Prime

Don't throw Dezgra unless you are willing to look in your vats as well sir.

[MechFrog1]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Kraken-3 Boating at its 8 LRM15 finest
Piranha- Boating at its 12 MG fastest
Nova- Boating at its 10 ML Prime

Don't throw Dezgra unless you are willing to look in your vats as well sir.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Joseph Mallan]

mint frog, on 28 October 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

What the hell are you talking about?

mint frog, on 28 October 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Too bad it didn't fix rampant boating of anything. It's just amazing how quickly you dezgra forget the past.

Clanners are quite adept at making Boated builds. In fact Clanners had the best of the best Boated builds on TT. So if anyone is Dezgra take a look in the TROs for Clan builds and see it in full bloom.

[MechFrog1]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Clanners are quite adept at making Boated builds. In fact Clanners had the best of the best Boated builds on TT. So if anyone is Dezgra take a look in the TROs for Clan builds and see it in full bloom.

Go back and re-read my post. Nothing you're talking about has any relation to it.

I'm pointing out the correct history of the failed ghost heat system and you want to jabber about clan boating mechs?

Are you on medication?

Edited by mint frog, 28 October 2013 - 06:10 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

mint frog, on 28 October 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Go back and re-read my post. Nothing you're talking about has any relation to it.

I'm pointing out the correct history of the failed ghost heat system and you want to jabber about clan boating mechs?

Are you on medication?

I was taking it as you were coming from a Clanners perspective, Ghost heat is a fail all around. Does Caffeine count as Medicated?