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Convergence- A Fix With No Cof, Spread, Etc. Video Demo Included


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#1 RandomLurker

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:09 PM

Introducing Kinetic Aim™, a term I totally didn't just make up. The ultimate solution to convergence and pinpoint aiming. No cones of fire, no spread, everything is under the direct control of the pilot. Simply put, you move fast or you get perfect aim. Pick one.

The Video Demonstration:


Why is Pinpoint Aiming Bad?
Because it removes gameplay options. For 18 years, MW has been dominated by the "massed direct-fire weapons" metagame. Yes, all the way back to Mechwarrior 2 in 1995. Ever since I started doing league play in MW2 (good o'l NBT...), the ability to concentrate weapons on a single point has defined every. single. mechwarrior game. ever. The reason is that all the games have kept the armor and critical hit system, and put it into a First Person environment. The armor system and weapons weren't originally designed for that, so they have never been balanced in any MW game.

With Pinpoint aiming, you can concentrate your fire on the CT resulting a quick kill. Non direct fire weapons, like missiles and LBX, will always be inferior in this situation. Any mech loadout that uses them will be sub-par. Not to say that a skilled pilot can't make good use of them, but they are underpowered in comparison and always will be. Your gameplay options are limited by the requirement to focus fire.

To combat this problem, PGI has instituted obnoxious, heavy-handed balance systems like Ghost Heat and Gauss Charge Up. They have nerfed each FOTM weapon in sequence, a chain that will never end. Past games did the exact same things (MW3 laser heat nerf for example). The core mechanic - pinpoint convergence - must be addressed or all of this will continue as it has for the entire existence of the franchise.

Kinetic Aim - The Fix
Tie the aiming reticle to the mech's movement. That's all. The rest will take care of itself. Thus, the accuracy that everyone loves/hates is still there. There is no fundamental change to the existing game. Nothing is taken away from the pilot, like a cone-of-fire system would do. What you point at is what you hit- but pointing at the right thing becomes harder. Pinpoint aiming retains it's power and continues to exist- but comes with a cost. That cost is speed. This small difference means that other weapons become useful in different situations because of their different mechanics, instead of being inferior because of those same mechanics. For example, SRM's become desirable in a brawl specifically because of their spread, making it easier to hit whil at high speed. It means that a pilot is forced to choose between the power of pinpoint weapons, and the vulnerability of having to move slowly to use them. It opens up new possibilities for mech quirks, efficiency unlocks and modules (arm reflex would actually mean something), and weapon mechanics. Skill and strategy are made more important, instead of being diminished as COF would do.

Best of all? It's already in game. There's no question of how hard it would be to implement or code, because it's already been done. This is exactly how aim works in 3pv. Why it's there I have no idea, but a demonstration can be made with it. You can go test it yourself. The aim point is tied to the mech's walking animation. Since the animation has already been tied to engine rating, this automatically balances itself across different chassis and loadouts. See the video above.

I do have some tweaks to suggest, before it's put into 1pv as well. First, tie the aim bounce to each individual foot, so it bobs left to right slightly. This will spread weapons fire out accross the different armor locations. Second, aim for the following level of balance: A mech at full speed, with an above-average pilot, should be able to reliably hit an Atlas sized target at 1000m- but not accurately enough to aim at individual components, or with 100% of shots. From that point, faster/smaller mechs and different loadout options all balance themselves out naturally from their existing mechanics. Nothing is forced or arbitrary (*cough* Ghost Heat *cough*).

Watch. Read. Discuss. Flame (you know you want to).

Edited by RandomLurker, 19 September 2013 - 04:10 PM.


#2 Monky

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:15 PM

So basically aimpoint sway tied to the stride of your mech. Thanks for the very thorough video!

#3 XANi

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:30 PM

Sooo basically make lights miss more but still allow snipers to peek from behind their hill with perfect accuracy. Sorry but that sounds terrible.

What would be better is to tie it to crosshair, not mech, movement, and location of weapons.

So if you track mech on screen and move aim to right side, your "right side" weapons will convergence faster on target than rest. Same with up/down, that would basically (predictably, not random) spread fire when trying to aim fast, but still allow for accurate shots.

So you either wait a bit to attain perfect convergence on all weapons, or fire them while you are still tracking target, adding a little spread. You still could hit all the weapons on moving target if you were skilled enougth to account for that difference of converge speed between weapons but it wouldn't be so **** easy as it is now.

#4 RandomLurker

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:34 PM

Lights typically fight at close range, where the bounce has far less effect. They also run at smaller engine ratings, which makes them bounce less often then the heavier mechs. This actually gives them an advantage compared to heavies and assaults. Like I said, it's self-balancing with existing mechanics.

Lots of people like sniping, I'm not trying to eliminate it. The point is that long range snipers are more exposed to counter attack, and cannot retain all of their precision when brawling.

#5 Eddrick

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:39 PM

I'm against most of the ideas for reducing accuracy. But, I don't have much of a problem with this one. It's controlled, predictable, and not random. I am against any kind of randomness. Because, I have reach a point were my skill as a gamer far out classes my luck (How many can seriously say they have had an attack with 70% accuracy miss five times in a row on the first five attempts). The drawback of getting perfect accuracy with the system you describe, is to stand still. Which, makes you a very easy target. I have herd of some that have a problem with something like this making everyone want to stand still throughout an entire match. But, I don't really see that happening.

#6 Sybreed

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:14 PM

ehhh I'd say it's a start, although I'd prefer torso weapons have different convergence points than arm mounted weapons. Still, not against this idea, might have lots of people crying about it though.

Also, props on using FTL's soundtrack :(

Edited by Sybreed, 19 September 2013 - 06:14 PM.


#7 WhoDidTheElf

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:23 PM

I really like that idea. It shows that reducing convergence doesn't have to rely on randomness.

#8 Psydotek

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:54 PM

I like this idea.

Could even combine it with an expanding reticle (NOT expanding cone of fire). Weapons are still pinpoint accurate, you just have a harder time determining where the pinpoint is based on movement speed (and possibly other factors).

#9 Vermana

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

Best feedback yet. Reduce the penalty for smaller mech sizes (The lighter the mech, the less disruption, so Lights and Mediums don't get screwed) and this will make the game ten times better and less stupidly gimmicky.

#10 Imperius

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:18 PM

Oh look this thread again nothing to see move along.

#11 Applejack

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:25 PM

It's simple and I say, "Why not? Because really it doesn't change anything.
Your TTK with arm sway and without arm sway on the 'Mech was essentially identical.
It's a good change because it adds a bit of depth to the game and reflects a loss of accuracy on the move.
It simulates a cone-of-fire caused by pilot skill.

With that said, this will have no change at high ELO play and won't fix the balance problem. At all.

Edited by Applejack, 19 September 2013 - 08:27 PM.


#12 Delas Ting Usee

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:31 PM

View PostImperius, on 19 September 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Oh look this thread again nothing to see move along.


Oh look, someone loaded with self-importance and overcompensating, (For what let's not say) with nothing productive to add Moving on...hope the 'powers to be' will at least test this at some point..

#13 Dracol

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:31 PM

I dislike the idea and here is why...., I really enjoy running a cicada or a treb at 115kph/98kph with at least one ppc. I've gotten really good at hitting targets at 600m to 800m while running perpendicular to the target while i'm running full speed. At that range, any randomness to the shot will make it miss since the target is very small. As it is, I miss shots on occasion because of terrain variations. A slight dip or rise near the point when i shoot will cause a miss.

No matter how little the variation is for small mechs, it will still punish them more then large mechs. Giving lights/meds less varience would also be counter intuitive. Why would the slow lumbering beast of an assualt have more kinetic aim when it would be a more stable platform?

IMHO, anything added to MWO that favors heavies or assualts will result in lights and mediums losing appeal. Assualt warrior online of previous MW generations is not something I personally would like to go back to.

#14 Dracol

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:39 PM

Oh, and why it is in game now on 3pv.... my guess it's to help counter the advantages that 3pv provides. That or the way the mech is attached to the drone which is attached to the recticle confers the bounce of the walking mech model through the chain down to the recticle.

Edited by Dracol, 19 September 2013 - 08:40 PM.


#15 Stelar 7

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:44 PM

I don't like it, it unbalances things in favor of defense versus offense,. which promotes camping. Being able to hit accurately on the move is critical to being able to attack into enemy held territory. With your system attacking is sub optimal because entrenched defenders need not move and can focus attackers knowing they will face less accurate return fire.

#16 RandomLurker

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 09:34 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad to see that there's more constructive discussion here then in most of the convergence threads. Keep it up.

Re: Light and Medium Mechs

The balance for this is already in the game. The walking animation is tied to engine rating. Because of their low tonnage, light mechs use a smaller engine rating, and therefore a light mech topped out at 151 kph will have less bounce then my Victor did in the video at 75 kph. At 60% - still a brisk 100 kph - your accuracy will be almost unimpeded. I encourage you to test this out in game. Post your results as a video. If it proves me wrong, then thats fine too. It will give the devs more info to balance with.

Re: No difference in tests

There is a difference, if you look closely. On the Full Speed bounce test, the Cicada target took 1 more weapon cycle to kill, and it's entire ST was chewed through in the process. Bear in mind, this is at under 200m, and the suggestion is intended to balance Alpha sniping at long range. So this is as it should be. If, in the future, brawling becomes overpowered and sniping completely dies out, the system is in place to tweak.

Re: Camping

A fair point, if all you ever do is line up behind hills at 800+m and snipe at each other. Since games rarely if ever do that, I don't think it'll be a problem. Since the change also gives more incentive to brawl, it will never happen again if implemented. Also, entrenched defenders that aren't moving are extremely vulnerable to flanking, sniping and LRM attacks. In other words, it makes the game more tactical. Your counter-example even demonstrated why. I consider this a good thing.

Pre_Emption: Brawling

I don't expect this to make brawling OP. The buff to brawling is by making it a more effective sniping counter, not by increasing it's damage or anything. In turn, sniping will counter brawlers- if they have scouts for intel and the wits to use it. It also makes LRM's more attractive for tactical reasons, without having to buff them and risk making LRMs OP, giving yet another tier of move/countermove.

Bottom Line

It's this (or something like it), or constant nerf chains. Look at the front page right now. UAC nerfed.... AC 5 is better then UAC 5 now... AC10 is the new AC 20. The next FOTM is already forming. 3 Days ago it was still whining about the gauss nerf. Two weeks ago it was whining about 1 Gauss/2 PPC. The goal of this suggestion is to minimize the FOTM effect (it can never be completely eliminated in any game) by making a greater number of strategies competitive. It also reduces the overlarge CT problem many mechs have, giving you more chassis variety. It also removes the need for arbitrary mechanics like Ghost Heat and the Gauss Charge Up - how many more of those do you want put onto your weapons? How do you want Clan Tech to be balanced? This change provides a gameplay based, pilot controlled method for balancing these things. My goal is to get MWO turned into a superior product overall. Even if you don't like it, compare it to the alternatives (ghost heat, weapon nerfs, cone of fire, quadruple armor) and think about which is the better solution. I don't expect everyone to like it, but the status quo is {Scrap} and the alternatives are also {Scrap}.

Edited by RandomLurker, 19 September 2013 - 09:43 PM.


#17 Shifty Eyes

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:40 AM

I think this would be a simple and elegant solution. I haven't heard any compelling arguments against it. The trade-off between vulnerability (standing still) and accuracy balances itself out naturally, and a skilled pilot that is used to his mech will be able to compensate for the bounce.

#18 Monky

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 07:38 AM

View PostShifty Eyes, on 20 September 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

I think this would be a simple and elegant solution. I haven't heard any compelling arguments against it. The trade-off between vulnerability (standing still) and accuracy balances itself out naturally, and a skilled pilot that is used to his mech will be able to compensate for the bounce.


I agree, and given that the level of bounce can be tweaked easily to basically make it so snipers have to go to a stand still to guarantee a no-skill specific component hit, but not a target hit, while leaving everything else pretty much as is, it could work easily. Skilled snipers will likely still be able to pull off specific component hits while moving in most cases, though it will be harder. This is a good thing.

#19 RandomLurker

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:43 PM

To the front page!

View PostMonky, on 20 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:


I agree, and given that the level of bounce can be tweaked easily to basically make it so snipers have to go to a stand still to guarantee a no-skill specific component hit, but not a target hit, while leaving everything else pretty much as is, it could work easily. Skilled snipers will likely still be able to pull off specific component hits while moving in most cases, though it will be harder. This is a good thing.


Exactly the level of balance I'm hoping for. Glad to see someone gets it!

#20 Varth Shenon

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:12 PM

It's simple,

Like it being an arcade, or simulator?

Me, ofc

SIMULATOR


In 1pv, it should be the camera tilting, not just the crossair.

Edited by Varth Shenon, 20 September 2013 - 06:15 PM.






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