56 replies to this topic

[Scratx]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

I can confirm that one way us light pilots deal with LRMs in the open is to run perpendicular to where they were initially coming from. Maybe followed by a hard turn or jump jet turn when they're just about to hit.

And it's super effective! (especially if you're also running an AMS to whittle down at the incoming missiles to begin with)

[Satan n stuff]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

I can confirm that one way us light pilots deal with LRMs in the open is to run perpendicular to where they were initially coming from. Maybe followed by a hard turn or jump jet turn when they're just about to hit.

Best way to deal with it is to run straight at them and turn at the last second, if you don't the missiles will just turn to follow you and you'll probably get hit anyway. If you try that while running away from the missiles they're more likely to hit you as the missiles usually won't be coming down steep enough to hit the ground and because you're running away from them they'll have more time to turn. Simply running towards or away from them obviously won't do much other than get you killed, unless you're near their minimum/maximum range. Jump jet turns work wonderfully, as they let you instantly make sharp turns, but you need be very careful about the timing or they won't work at all.
I expect you know all of this but others might not.

[Krivvan]

***** n stuff, on 25 October 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Best way to deal with it is to run straight at them and turn at the last second,

I'm looking at it from the point of view of trying to reduce damage as you're getting away. Approaching a missile boat in a light usually ends up being a trivial affair if they're actually alone (a rare occurrence hopefully).

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

At the moment of impact for each missile does a radius check. If the radius is within the component, damage is done. Damage is split between all touching components, % depending how much radius is within component. Components overlap.

Having said that, the explosion radius of missiles is like 10cm now and no more is needed. We made it this small because so much QQ about small mech taking damage everywhere compared to large mechs. So now the illusion is that only at the warheads point of impact damage is done. There is no explosion velocity, this isn't EVEOnline, instantaneous damage within the radius and all damage done on server.

As for damage each missile will deal a maximum of 2 damage no more, no less. Airstrike and Artillery use large radii with the same kind of checks normal missiles do.

[Oni Ralas]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 25 October 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

At the moment of impact for each missile does a radius check. If the radius is within the component, damage is done. Damage is split between all touching components, % depending how much radius is within component. Components overlap.

First off, thanks for chiming in Always fun to know the mechanics, the Wikia will be updated as well so there is no confusion in the future.

Quote

Having said that, the explosion radius of missiles is like 10cm now and no more is needed. We made it this small because so much QQ about small mech taking damage everywhere compared to large mechs. So now the illusion is that only at the warheads point of impact damage is done. There is no explosion velocity, this isn't EVEOnline, instantaneous damage within the radius and all damage done on server.

So, with the ER being small (to address the splash previously encountered) then that pretty much confirms lights do *not* take damage akin to their larger brethren. What is being experienced in game is accurate - lights are "outrunning" LRM (not due to speed/transversal check, but rather small er). And, apparently, this is by design.

Hmmmm... PPC splash damage is calculated the same way?

Quote

As for damage each missile will deal a maximum of 2 damage no more, no less. Airstrike and Artillery use large radii with the same kind of checks normal missiles do.

Just of curiosity - is there a roll for hit done at all, or do all strikes have a 100% connect chance (before modifiers (if we even have any...sounds like not))?

[Krivvan]

Oni Ralas, on 25 October 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Just of curiosity - is there a roll for hit done at all, or do all strikes have a 100% connect chance (before modifiers (if we even have any...sounds like not))?

I assume he means for each of the 10 artillery shots.

[Satan n stuff]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

I'm looking at it from the point of view of trying to reduce damage as you're getting away. Approaching a missile boat in a light usually ends up being a trivial affair if they're actually alone (a rare occurrence hopefully).

I understand that, but it's functionally the same as running away from them and then making a sharp turn, as the missiles will have plenty of time to turn resulting in them getting behind you anyway unless you're already close enough to get into minimum range. It's a bit more effective if it's an LRM boat without artemis or TAG but you don't see those often nowadays.

[Sybreed]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 25 October 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

At the moment of impact for each missile does a radius check. If the radius is within the component, damage is done. Damage is split between all touching components, % depending how much radius is within component. Components overlap.

Having said that, the explosion radius of missiles is like 10cm now and no more is needed. We made it this small because so much QQ about small mech taking damage everywhere compared to large mechs. So now the illusion is that only at the warheads point of impact damage is done. There is no explosion velocity, this isn't EVEOnline, instantaneous damage within the radius and all damage done on server.

As for damage each missile will deal a maximum of 2 damage no more, no less. Airstrike and Artillery use large radii with the same kind of checks normal missiles do.

I'm not really expecting an answer, but are you guys looking at making LRMs more powerful while being less CT centric? Might make them worthwhile again...

Of course, the second LRMs become midly viable, 100 LRM boats will mess everything up.

[Shakespeare]

Sybreed, on 25 October 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I'm not really expecting an answer, but are you guys looking at making LRMs more powerful while being less CT centric? Might make them worthwhile again...

Of course, the second LRMs become midly viable, 100 LRM boats will mess everything up.

Smaller launchers need boating related adjustments to keep from being able to put so many missiles in the air, maybe by hard-locking the tube limit. (Astute LRM users who are around here have heard me make this argument several times. Oh look, ANOTHER LRM balance thread! I'll go rant in that one too!)

That would ease the difficulty in balancing LRM performance, as fewer mechs would be able to dump 100s in the air at once, and those that CAN already have weaknesses to balance the chassis (often there are no brawling arms, or the ct is easily hit, or there are very few other wep hardpoints etc.) When battlemasters, highlanders, and friggin shadowhawks can do the job better than stalkers, catapults, and trebs - and bring more other weapons besides, you end up in a balance freakshow.

As for multiple LRM mechs bombarding the same target - it's not dissimilar from being focused down from any other wep system, only it's harder to shoot back. The key is to find and kill (or dodge) the spotter. Kinda like in TF2 - if you see an Uber'd Heavy, you don't try and kill the heavy, you kill the freakin medic charging him. Kill the spotter, and LRMs will stop hitting you. This is easier to do in 12s, where comms are a guarantee. That's probably the no.1 reason there are so few LRM teams in 12s. It's not just the weapon system, it's the ease at which the enemy can adjust to react as a group. PUGs often can't - even when they want to, the tools of communication are so minimal, there's often to time to evade/attack to counter LRMS AND type "spotter d3 help me pls".

So, next time LRM adjustments lead to LRMageddon, we need to ask WHY before just screaming for a nerf. The weapon system behaves so radically different, that the counter to them isn't to just reduce them to worthless status. Maybe people wouldn't HAVE to boat if carrying 1 or 2 large LRM systems wasn't so pointless.

Edited by Shakespeare, 25 October 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[Sybreed]

you, stop making so much sense

edit: There was a time in CB, when no Stalkers were around, that my CN-9A was using an optimized stock loadout (DHS, Endo) which was 1 AC/10, 2Mlas, 1 LRM 10 and it was doing JUST FINE. It wasn't OP, I could deal around 400-600 dmg per game and was TONS of fun to play. I could harass targets at long range with the LRM 10/AC 10 and still be deadly at close range. On each rounds I had 1 or 2 kills, sometimes 3 and more.

Then, Stalkers came, people realized we could boat stuff, LRMs got nerfed, and I switched to 3XSSRM2 instead.... Not as much fun, but a single LRM 10 is just worthless, especially with crazy good AMS shooting down 6 of the 10 missiles.

Edited by Sybreed, 25 October 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Oni Ralas, on 25 October 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

So, with the ER being small (to address the splash previously encountered) then that pretty much confirms lights do *not* take damage akin to their larger brethren. What is being experienced in game is accurate - lights are "outrunning" LRM (not due to speed/transversal check, but rather small er). And, apparently, this is by design.

As a light you take damage from any missile that actually connects, so there's no outrunning explosions. Assuming projectile physics work as they should the missiles that hit will always detonate on the target and deal damage instantly, no outrunning that.
However a light has much smaller hitboxes and a lot of them have evenly distributed armor, allowing LRM damage to be spread evenly across the mech. So a missile volley might not damage armor past yellow simply because not enough damage is dealt to any single hit location. I can guarantee you that if I don't actively attempt to dodge LRMs or take cover in my lights they will hit, and they will hurt.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 26 October 2013 - 03:01 AM.

[Zerberus]

Oni Ralas, on 24 October 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

That is actually what lead me to write the post. I run the 6LRM5 cat for lulz all the time but have all but stopped targeting lights. They cannot be hit.

I rarely target lights with LRMs for a simple reason.

A proper light travels at 150KM/h or more, LRMs travel 120km/h. 1st grade math says I shouldn`t be able to hit it reliably becasue he can outrun my missiles, and that is exactly what we see with missiles impacting 5 meters or so behind spiders.

So it kind of makes everything else more or less irrelevant at that time.

[Oni Ralas]

Zerberus, on 26 October 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

I rarely target lights with LRMs for a simple reason.

A proper light travels at 150KM/h or more, LRMs travel 120km/h. 1st grade math says I shouldn`t be able to hit it reliably becasue he can outrun my missiles, and that is exactly what we see with missiles impacting 5 meters or so behind spiders.

So it kind of makes everything else more or less irrelevant at that time.

Hate to be "that guy"... but LRM's travel at 100m/s. That's 1000m (aka 1 kilometer) ever 10 seconds... or 360 KPH. 360KPH > 150KPH

What was your 1st grade teacher's name? We need to have a chat.

[Leesin]

Good, fast lights shouldnt be owned by LRMs, their advantage is size and speed, used to avoid damage, including LRMs. And to be honest LRMs should never again be face wrecking weapons, why? Because they're easy mode support weapons.

[Oni Ralas]

Leesin, on 26 October 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Good, fast lights shouldnt be owned by LRMs, their advantage is size and speed, used to avoid damage, including LRMs. And to be honest LRMs should never again be face wrecking weapons, why? Because they're easy mode support weapons.

Lights don't take damage due to mechanics in place limiting their damage radius. They don't get to use their size and speed the way they should - to actively avoid rain by seeking cover. Instead, they got a kitchen pass because of QQing (to quote the Dev ". We made it this small because so much QQ about small mech taking damage everywhere compared to large mechs").

So, instead of using the tools at their disposal to duck and dive out of cover - the weapon itself is nerfed. Pathetic.

And, it still boggles my mind anyone calls LRM EZ mode these days. You've got a blaring warning missiles are incoming. You've got cover everywhere and a fairly predictable flight path. You've got ECM. You've got AMS. In essence, you have more to counter that weapon than ANY_OTHER_WEAPON_BAR_NONE. LRM's are far from EZ mode. To use them well requires a ridiculous amount of finesse right now with ballistics ******* EVERYWHERE. But, this isn't an LRM QQ session.

[xe N on]

Leesin, on 26 October 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

And to be honest LRMs should never again be face wrecking weapons, why? Because they're easy mode support weapons.

Easy mode? If you spam LRMs like mad on targets ... ok, to be honest thats easy but also highly ineffective and a waste of ammo. That's like shooting with your AC/20 against rocks for fun.

In fact, playing 3 catapults (K2, C1, and C4) ... do you want to know which is imho the most easy one to play? Always that one which has no LRMs equiped on it ...

To be effective with LRMs requires alot of clever positioning - one wrong move and you are cannon fodder for lights or snipers. Beside PPCs, LRMs are the only weapon that comes with a minium range ... and it is double as high as for PPCs. If you are cought in brawl range as a LRM boat - you are toast.

LRM damage not only is reduced by AMS, but ECM blocks LRM lock completly. LRM do splash damage, which is inferior to pinpoint damage weapons like lasers and ACs.

In fact, to be successfull with LRMs takes me more skill than with any other weapon. There is one exception though - the enemy team consist of a bunch of morons.

Edited by xe N on, 26 October 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Zerberus]

Oni Ralas, on 26 October 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

Hate to be "that guy"... but LRM's travel at 100m/s. That's 1000m (aka 1 kilometer) ever 10 seconds... or 360 KPH. 360KPH > 150KPH

What was your 1st grade teacher's name? We need to have a chat.

ROFL at how you fell into the trap. I need to do this more often....

You try to tear someones academic credibility apart and thereby prove yourself completely oblivious to the obvious mistake that eould have saved you the effort of thought. And you displayed a lack of knowledge of the actual subject in the process.

The PROPER answer would have been alonmg the lines of "You`re making a mistake. Lrms fly at 120 M/s, not KM/h, (which btw is where you failed in the knowledge department, see also http://mwomercs.com/...23-21-may-2013/ ). That equates to approximately 430 KM/h"

But you proved my theory right that the MWO forum will jump to attack anybody who makes even the most obvious of honest mistakes, regardless of how stupid they end up looking afterwards, and for that I thank you

[Taemien]

I don't think increasing the speed of LRMs will increase their chances of hitting lights. Unless you make it so fast that nothing can avoid them. You can't buff a weapon around the speed of lights. You screw up anything that moves slower.

Improving the turn radius would help. But again you're treading on screwing over slower machines, though not as much since they could still take cover (faster missiles would make this a nightmare).

Maybe a dev could clarify, but from what I've seen in missiles, they have a very fluid and set path. Its not like they reach a point of tracking and immediately beeline towards the mech. I know they reach an apex of their flight and descend, but that isn't really a beeline for the target.

So what is happening is the missiles reach their apex and then drop down at a slight curve. Ping and latency isn't causing them to miss, its the shape of the curve. Now the missiles do correct this as they come down. Its why you can't simply take a step back and watch them hit the ground in front of you.

This correction is the turn radius. It can go up or down as well as left or right. But because of the curve, its slamming into the ground instead of turning upwards and following horizontally. We know the paths of the missiles is done server side, mechs move server side for the sake of placement. Its why we have HSR, what you see isn't what is actually happening. Lockon Missiles were hitting targets consistently before HSR, so thats why I know their trajectory is on the server.

If we want to see them more accurately hit lights and fast mechs, we need to adjust at least the up and down turn radius so the missile can follow the mech easier.

Personally I wouldn't tone it up too much. Lights should have a means to avoid missiles. And darting around is one way to do it. I would tone it up just enough to make missiles a nightmare in open flat terrain. Just tone it enough so that the missiles turn to follow very very close to the ground following something going 110 kph. This way bumps and hills will give the light a means to avoid being hit (by some or all of the missiles). But a light in open flat terrain will get wrecked, with 30-50% of the missiles hitting the legs.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Oni Ralas, on 26 October 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

Lights don't take damage due to mechanics in place limiting their damage radius. They don't get to use their size and speed the way they should - to actively avoid rain by seeking cover. Instead, they got a kitchen pass because of QQing (to quote the Dev ". We made it this small because so much QQ about small mech taking damage everywhere compared to large mechs").

So, instead of using the tools at their disposal to duck and dive out of cover - the weapon itself is nerfed. Pathetic.

Not true. The radius is so small because lighter mechs are more compact. The old 2m radius is roughly the distance from a spider's feet to its knees, so a whole lot of armor would get caught In the blast, so an SSRM to the arm would have the CT caught in the blast radius as well, and deal some minor damage there as well. So they nerfed the explosion radius on missiles so that lights would take the damage they were supposed to from them.

[Oni Ralas]

Zerberus, on 26 October 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

ROFL at how you fell into the trap. I need to do this more often....

You try to tear someones academic credibility apart and thereby prove yourself completely oblivious to the obvious mistake that eould have saved you the effort of thought. And you displayed a lack of knowledge of the actual subject in the process.

The PROPER answer would have been alonmg the lines of "You`re making a mistake. Lrms fly at 120 M/s, not KM/h, (which btw is where you failed in the knowledge department, see also http://mwomercs.com/...23-21-may-2013/ ). That equates to approximately 430 KM/h"

But you proved my theory right that the MWO forum will jump to attack anybody who makes even the most obvious of honest mistakes, regardless of how stupid they end up looking afterwards, and for that I thank you

Translation: You ****** up, got called out, tried to play it off as a joke and lash out to make yourself look cool. Ad Homenim - it's all the rage these days.

The thing is though, no matter how you slice your post, it's wrong. On one hand you insinuate that you do not fire at lights for the following reason:

Quote

"A proper light travels at 150KM/h or more, LRMs travel 120km/h."

You stated, in two lines, why you do not fire and the logic behind it. Except that logic is wrong. Even if you had just fat fingered (as you say, an "obvious mistake") then the logic is still wrong. You yourself prove that in a short post later by even *correcting* the speeds. The icing on the cake was your comment about 1st grade math. I poked at you on this topic - not as an insult (well, it is now) - but rather as just a spot of fun.

So rather than saying "Woops -- hehe, yeah I ****** up. My bad... wait, why *do* lights outrun LRMs then if the speeds aren't...", you went all politician on me and tried to cover up your weak stance with rants and personal attacks. Unless your name is Sara Palin, I - nay, this entire community - expect more from you moving forward.

PS. Good catch on the 120m/s. 9sec delivery time instead of 10. So used to it being 100ms since they day LRM'***** the shelf.

Edited by Oni Ralas, 26 October 2013 - 12:12 PM.