51 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Roughneck45, on 28 October 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

?

the mindset that being good in 12 man team environment automatically makes something superior to a PUG environment. They are two toally different things, with different needs. In Comp12, you (if you want to be remotely successful) train as a group, and builds tend toward specialization, the then abilities of some units offsetting potential deficiencies of others. (A crude but easy analogy would be LRMs. It's a crapshoot if a LRMboat will be able to contribute in a a PUG environ, but in 12 man, not only will you likely have more than one, hence magnifying their capabilities, but you will have TAG and for the creative, NARC, and such on some of your WolfPack, allowing them to make the LRMs much more effective.)

In PUG drops, you can count on what you bring with you, nothing more. Hence overspecialization leads to getting killed easily. So generally a more adaptable build will be useful.

Comp12, if TRULY Comp. is extremely organized, with everyone being designed in their place for the Teams overwhelming Strategy. PUG drops are utter chaos. You have no wing man (unless, like many "Pros", you spend more time trying to sync 2x 4mans than actually in Comp12), you can't afford to bring a LRMboat with no support weapons, or such.

But when the Epeen begins here, the smug "Comp" argument gets trotted out. Funnily, most of those run the easiest Metarape FotM available, so as to be "competitive" and few actually think outside the box (because you know, while experimenting, your precious stats might take a beating).

Funny part is, my "PUG" build, is actually a Comp12 escort/Defender, used to support and protect the LRM/Snipe/Support units on my team. And the Pat Kell's (the guy who usually is the top of the Stalker brackett every tourney) in my unit tend to like knowing they have me there guarding their flanks. We don't tend to run wolfpacks enough, and IMO, "light hunters" do indeed tend to be a waste of time, as that's a larger mech that is now not supporting the unit as a whole. Conversely, a slower Medium of reasonable fast Heavy, can defend against enemy wolfpacks whilst staying with his unit jsut fine. (And contribute forcing breaches and such in the enemy line if not needed to beat off the dogs).

But It's a "PUG" build and as such a BAD.

Basically, I have little use for "Pro-Gamer" superiority complex.

[Roughneck45]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 October 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

the mindset that being good in 12 man team environment automatically makes something superior to a PUG environment. They are two toally different things, with different needs. In Comp12, you (if you want to be remotely successful) train as a group, and builds tend toward specialization, the then abilities of some units offsetting potential deficiencies of others. (A crude but easy analogy would be LRMs. It's a crapshoot if a LRMboat will be able to contribute in a a PUG environ, but in 12 man, not only will you likely have more than one, hence magnifying their capabilities, but you will have TAG and for the creative, NARC, and such on some of your WolfPack, allowing them to make the LRMs much more effective.)

In PUG drops, you can count on what you bring with you, nothing more. Hence overspecialization leads to getting killed easily. So generally a more adaptable build will be useful.

Comp12, if TRULY Comp. is extremely organized, with everyone being designed in their place for the Teams overwhelming Strategy. PUG drops are utter chaos. You have no wing man (unless, like many "Pros", you spend more time trying to sync 2x 4mans than actually in Comp12), you can't afford to bring a LRMboat with no support weapons, or such.

But when the Epeen begins here, the smug "Comp" argument gets trotted out. Funnily, most of those run the easiest Metarape FotM available, so as to be "competitive" and few actually think outside the box (because you know, while experimenting, your precious stats might take a beating).

Funny part is, my "PUG" build, is actually a Comp12 escort/Defender, used to support and protect the LRM/Snipe/Support units on my team. And the Pat Kell's (the guy who usually is the top of the Stalker brackett every tourney) in my unit tend to like knowing they have me there guarding their flanks. We don't tend to run wolfpacks enough, and IMO, "light hunters" do indeed tend to be a waste of time, as that's a larger mech that is now not supporting the unit as a whole. Conversely, a slower Medium of reasonable fast Heavy, can defend against enemy wolfpacks whilst staying with his unit jsut fine. (And contribute forcing breaches and such in the enemy line if not needed to beat off the dogs).

But It's a "PUG" build and as such a BAD.

Basically, I have little use for "Pro-Gamer" superiority complex.

Still don't see how it makes 12 mans laughable.

The mechs taken are optimized, and that optimization is to take down mechs quickly and clean. These mechs still work extremely well in PUG games.

I understand not liking the "Pro-Gamer" superiority complex, but the angle that you approach it from comes across as the casual armchair general, which is just as bad.

Edited by Roughneck45, 28 October 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roughneck45, on 28 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Still don't see how it makes 12 mans laughable.

The mechs taken take are optimized, and that optimization is to take down mechs quickly and clean. These mechs still work extremely well in PUG games.

I understand not liking the "Pro-Gamer" superiority complex, but the angle that you approach it from comes across as the casual armchair general, which is just as bad.

It's the attitude that makes it laughable. Holier than thou, superiority complex. Especially when a goodly bunch of the Pros get taken out of their 12 man, they aren't near as effective. Not saying every team has this, but it's far too common on these forums. And since I happen to play both, and be "competitive" in both, not quite the same as a casual, or an armchair general.

If my knocking 12 mans has set a burr in yer bottom, I dunno if I should apologize or not, TBH. Because 12 man is and of itself, no better than PUG play, just totally different mindsets and requirements.

Take it for what you will.

[Selfish]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 October 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Lol.

Beautifully incorrect. But keep telling yourself that. My specific build is actually the epitome of a team build. I never light hunt, whether in Comp12 or PUG. Small thinking dude, small thinking. It's what makes 12 man so laughable.

Also the elitist "you can succeed running whatever in PUG". Oh the ignorance. Most 12 man builds actually are mediocre at best in PUGs, and vice versa. Two totally differing role sets.

The only 'elitist' I'm seeing here is yourself. Straw men, stat thumping, and claiming to have secretly perfect builds and playstyles. You don't need to be some form of uber meta to be an egotist. As I said before, my answers were given to help the person who started the thread. It's fine to disagree, but you should do so constructively.

[Bishop Steiner]

Selfish, on 28 October 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

The only 'elitist' I'm seeing here is yourself. Straw men, stat thumping, and claiming to have secretly perfect builds and playstyles. You don't need to be some form of uber meta to be an egotist. As I said before, my answers were given to help the person who started the thread. It's fine to disagree, but you should do so constructively.

lol. I'm not the one deriding other peoples skills....or at least I wasn't. I did reply in response to your elitist answer, as if you alone have the keys to "competitive" builds. And nothing secret about the my builds. I post em, I play them. And I prove them. You? Just regurgitating rhetoric.

Maybe you should take off the blinders and read your own post more carefully before casting stones. Mine was specifically meant to. But at least I can admit it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 October 2013 - 08:54 PM.

[oldradagast]

A few thoughts from a Pugger:

1) Locust - fragile as a tin can. Might be fun, but I can't really see this mech being competitive unless at some point it ends up with borked hitboxes like Spiders.

2) Shadowhawk - Despite being rather tall, it is thin and more durable than one might expect. A lot of these all over in PUG land.

3) Thunderbolt - While I like their hulking, practical asymmetry, I've seen a drop-off in use in PUG's. Still a good mech and rather durable, though it's hard to come up with any reason to take a 65-tonner other than a Jager mech at top level play.

4) Battlemaster - nice mix of firepower, speed, and armor. A good mech, IMHO.

[Artgathan]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 October 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Especially when a goodly bunch of the Pros get taken out of their 12 man, they aren't near as effective.

Make a SpeedBall Player fight in a military engagement (or make a soldier play a round of SpeedBall) and see what happens.

12v12 and PUGs require different tactics and approaches in order to be victorious; they're different animals.

[Grimlox]

I play a mix of solo to 4 man pugs with non-competitive friends for the most part. I will occasionally venture into 12 man comp drop land with my unit but that is few and far between.

I find that Bishop usually provide good "all around" builds that can be successful in many environments. Most 12 man comp groups aren't going to want to take chances with these all around builds but since you can't always see what wins you games (was it the guy that hit 800+dmg or the one that kept the lights off him... or both?) it's hard to say whether a build is good in comp 12 mans or not really.

If the OP is mostly running 1-4 mans and wants some very consistent and well thought out builds for carrying some PUGs to victory then I recommend they take Bishop's build advice.

[Bishop Steiner]

Artgathan, on 29 October 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Make a SpeedBall Player fight in a military engagement (or make a soldier play a round of SpeedBall) and see what happens.

12v12 and PUGs require different tactics and approaches in order to be victorious; they're different animals.

kinda the point I was making, yes. Both can be dangerous, both are legit, and both are idiots to dismiss the other.

Yet I see far too many Comp12 players act as if PUG was inferior. And yet when they do end up PUGing (and not syunc dropping 2 lances into PUGland) they get smoked because they don't have 11 guys holding their hands and covering each others overspeciialized deficiencies.

Just as getting 12 amazing PUGs together in no way means they will make a good 12 man. Since there, teamwork and build compatibility and communication means far more than solo rambo skill.

[Effectz]

Tactics in PUG is 90% non existent.It's generally filled with people doing their own thing unless there's 4man premades either side.

[CDLord HHGD]

Worked though the locusts and the shadowhawks so far, both chassis are fine mechs. idk if locusts are a tier 1, but the hawks def are.

[Artgathan]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 October 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

kinda the point I was making, yes. Both can be dangerous, both are legit, and both are idiots to dismiss the other.

Ah, I suppose I misinterpreted what you'd said as something along the lines of "take them out of they're element and they're not good anymore" - a sublte jab at how they're may not be "truly" good players, only good at "12s". I'm not sure if I'm getting myself across.

I think the T-Bolt could see some utility as a PPC Poptart, but a Blackjack can do the same thing (more or less) and AFAIK those aren't popular in 12s right now. I'd like to think the Battlemaster can be mean if used properly, but that's probably just wishful thinking (6 ML + Gauss is pretty nasty if you can corner someone, but pretty useless against poptarts / long range).