113 replies to this topic

[Sealawyer]

Marack Drock, on 31 January 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Although you forget the 2 main languages of Davion and Steiner are German.

Your thinking of it after the merger. Before the merger it was English. To placate the Steiners so they didn't feel inferior they said it was German and English, putting the German first. A lot of Steiners felt slighted by the marriage and felt they were betrayed. this shows up in the lack of military cooperation between the two in the beginning

Edited by Sealawyer, 31 January 2014 - 05:41 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

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Seriously if I wanted the Clan Wars over you just call a batchall on the Invading Clans, bid them down to a minimum (and they will accept do to their ignorance of Com Star and insane Zellbrigen), and then just watch as your army beats the heck out of the 2 Firemoths that they decided could win.

This wouldn't work and shows that you have no clue how clan society works.

1st. If a clan leader starts to lose a fight with the forces of the winning bid, they can always call in more troops, up to the amount of the initial bid if they choose.

2nd. The clans would never honor this, in fact they barely honored the Comstar won truce of Tukayid and that was only 15 years. Comstar tried to make it a total stoppage of the invasion but the clans wouldn't go for it.

3rd. While the clans claim to be about honor they are shown over and over that they'll twist what it means by whatever justification they need to do it. Notice that Vlad wolf as the leader of the wolves claims that he isn't bound by the refusal war because of some bizzare excuse that he didn't vote for or against accepting VSD's offer to settle it with a proxy battle. In fact the only reason why the proxy battle happens is because the Wardens Clans decide to grow a spine and have enough votes in the Clan council to force a proxy battle to "end the clan invasion."

4th. Some Clans still ignore the results of the war, and in 3100+ time line you have members of the wolf clan try to take Terra.

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... Really all he had to do was lead a strike force and attack Strana Mechty.

Did you even read the novels or understand the basic lore of the game? The IS didn't find out where the Strana Mechty was until shortly before... they decided to invade clan space to smack down the Smoke Jags. It took the ENTIRE IS focusing on one Clan to destroy it. There is no way that the IS could have sent enough forces into Clan Space to defeat all of the Clans.

[Sealawyer]

I think you meant to reply to the next forum down.

Edited by Sealawyer, 31 January 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[Iron]

I am suprised no one has posted any of the sarna links. So here you go
Disclaimer: some links have have timeline spoilers
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Marik
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Davion
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Kurita
http://www.sarna.net...i/House_Steiner
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Liao
http://www.sarna.net...lhague_Republic

[Odanan]

Sealawyer, on 31 January 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

FRR definitely Scandinavia, I agree with the Finland thing above to, fits perfectly. Think of the clans as the equivalent of the evil WW2 faction. At least I do.

The Clans are the Axis, but the Finns fought against the USSR (which some consider part of the Allies).

[Abivard]

Odanan, on 01 February 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

The Clans are the Axis, but the Finns fought against the USSR (which some consider part of the Allies).

He said the evil WWII faction, that means the USSR. The USSR was Germany's ally when they invaded Finland, same when they invaded Poland.

The Clans are much more like the Huns, or Turks.

[Alexander Steel]

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If that be the case. Bring out all forces of the Inner Sphere from every corner and strike them hard. If Comstar had that much power stored for ages, then I can bet other civilizations had a bunch of stuff stored up and waiting for a chance that the stuff never got.

ComStar had that much power because they hadn't been fighting a grueling grudge match nuke each other back into the stone age war for the past 250 years. The other powers in the IS had the forces they had listed. Not only that but the idea that you could all the IS to put all of their forces together is silly and would never happen. Even if it did, the IS forces would have been crushed by the clans if for no other reason than the only IS faction in the 3050-3057 time line that had warships at the time was Comstar and they had about as many warships as 1 or 2 clans, at best, and their warships were of Star League Design. ((Worse than the Clan versions.))

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Even still Victor only had to go attack Strana Mechty and SJ

I have no idea what you are even trying to say here but your arguments really show that you have a huge lack of understanding about the lore of battletech. Which is fine, but making sweeping statements about how people should have done X and all they had to do was Y is silly if you don't know the basic lore as to why this wasn't done.

The IS could never have just attacked Strana Mechty and won, they would have been blown out of the sky before they ever reached the planet because the clans have warship FLEETS and the IS has one substandard warship fleet ((Comstar which gets divided between Comstar and Word of Blake in 3052 or so)) and each Clan has entire Warship fleet, some even have fleets that are multiple times the size of the IS ones.

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This led to 7 or 8 years until Star League MKII broke the Truce and attacked SJ.

The "Truce" only said the Clans couldn't advance closer to Terra, it said nothing about the IS being unable to attack the clans. So the IS didn't break the Truce.

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So you are saying that Crusaders are the only ones with a spine... Took a lot spine to shoot your Warden buddies in the back when Tukayyid came around, nice going.

You need to chill out, I never said I had any good thoughts about the Crusaders much less that I was one. Of course I'm not surprised you made yet another mistake.

The reason I say the Wardens have no spine is that they could have stopped the invasion of the IS at the start by voting against it along with Clan Wolf. Instead the vast majority of Warden Clans voted along with the Crusader Clans to invade the IS because they were afraid of the IS uniting itself under the FedCom banner, and losing out on their destiny. Warden leaders were also afraid of their younger clan members who wanted the honor and glory of battle and the idea of reclaiming the IS made the younger members much more in favor of Crusader views.

Keep in mind even when they fought the trial of refusal Wolf was hideously outnumbered and they still almost won. Had a few other Wardens found their spines and voted not to invade Wolf would have been able to win the trial. So yeah, the Wardens being spineless caused over a decade of needless bloodshed and it was sort of nice to seem them grow a spine and do what they claimed they were for by forcing the Clans to accept Victor's proxy battle to end the Clan Invasion.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 01 February 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[Sealawyer]

Odanan, on 01 February 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

The Clans are the Axis, but the Finns fought against the USSR (which some consider part of the Allies).

Abivard, on 01 February 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

He said the evil WWII faction, that means the USSR. The USSR was Germany's ally when they invaded Finland, same when they invaded Poland.

The Clans are much more like the Huns, or Turks.

I actually consider both kind of evil, Finland was just in a bad spot and had to choose their lesser of two evils. In the case above though it was referring to the USSR.

And how did this thread pick up debate about the clan batchall system? It is about the Inner Sphere, so now your just making it creepy.

[Odanan]

Abivard, on 01 February 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

The Clans are much more like the Huns, or Turks.

Turks? You mean Mongolians, right?

[Alexander Steel]

Odanan, on 01 February 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Turks? You mean Mongolians, right?

Are they always trying to "tear down city wall"?

[Abivard]

If I had meant Mongols I would have said mongols.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Marack Drock, on 01 February 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Dude its not that I don't understand the Lore.. Its that I don't care!!

That line alone pretty much blew all of your arguments out of the water dude.

You have some good points... but that line hurt your argument more than anything the other guy said.

[Julian Langsdorf III]

EDIT: Changed my post.

I feel like we've gotten off topic. This is more about basic comprehension of all the facts and putting information out there. And general Q&A about the factions. Getting into "what ifs" and conspiracy theories seems like they should be forum topics of their own.

Personally, I'm monitoring this thread to help people by answering questions about the factions. Since I do have a lot of the sourcebooks, field manuals, and so on. All this other stuff is kinda cluttering things up.

Edited by Julian Langsdorf III, 01 February 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Marack Drock, on 01 February 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Yeah well I don't care.

If you do not care: you do not keep arguing about it.

If it doesn't matter - you do not keep coming back to it.

[Julian Langsdorf III]

Sealawyer, on 31 January 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

There is no real US faction as most of the worlds that were populated by Americans are in the center. So they are diversified among all the houses. They kind of did that on purpose because they wanted to avoid a US faction.

Marik is like the Greek city states to me. Divided by politics, but strong when united. And good at trading just like them.

I like the way you put this. Particularly the comparison to the Ancient Greeks. I do think that's valid and its actually not the first time I've heard it. The difference is that instead of them all being "Greek" city states, some of the population clusters are not Greek by ethnicity or culture, so its more of a mix. But the city-state framework does apply. Also, later when the FWL builds warships, a lot of those warships have Greek-inspired names, like Agamemnon, Delos, Thessaly, Sparta, etc.

Edited by Julian Langsdorf III, 01 February 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Marack Drock, on 01 February 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Fine. Marack Drock going off line.

I am not saying do not post at all - or do not play (though I can see how it can very easily be interpreted as such) but repeatedly telling someone you believe they are wrong, without willing to even entertain their side of the story is not helpful to anyone.

IE: you were starting to sound like Victor Morson: not wrong, but wrongheaded.

[Sealawyer]

Julian Langsdorf III, on 01 February 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

I like the way you put this. Particularly the comparison to the Ancient Greeks. I do think that's valid and its actually not the first time I've heard it. The difference is that instead of them all being "Greek" city states, some of the population clusters are not Greek by ethnicity or culture, so its more of a mix. But the city-state framework does apply. Also, later when the FWL builds warships, a lot of those warships have Greek-inspired names, like Agamemnon, Delos, Thessaly, Sparta, etc.

Yeah, I don't really believe anyone should be saying all Kuritas are Japanese or all Davions are English. The realty in the universe is the population is really mixed. The head Houses were of one heritage, but when taking a entire region you had an extreme amount of diversity.

House Kurita is the perfect example. It is readily implied and believed to be a Japanese group of people. But when you take the sheer amount of people and planets, it is absurd to think any one country on this planet could populate a single house. The rulers are Japanese. The people are planet earth. It is just the Houses tended to adopt the leaders heritage. Not many in the Combine actually speak Japanese, but if you want to move up in the House you better learn it.

So I think of the FWL as Greek City States, but I understand a majority of the people are Balkan, Indian, French, and North American. Greek City States are just the closest thing to mind when you think of how the FWL works to me.

Hope I didn't go to far off a tangent, this is one of my favorite threads.

[Odanan]

I like to think the FWL (Marik) as the Eastern Roman Empire.

(and Steiner as the Austrian Empire - because of the strong politics orientation)

[Sealawyer]

Odanan, on 01 February 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

I like to think the FWL (Marik) as the Eastern Roman Empire.

(and Steiner as the Austrian Empire - because of the strong politics orientation)

I think the Eastern Roman Empire doesnt really fit. They had a lot of political intrigue, but were really united. It was the sheer number of invaders that did them in. That is why I say the Greek City States.

That Austrian thing works well if you think of the Hapsburg's and the way royalty worked with England and Austria during that time. Thinking Hanse - Melissa marriage. I could agree with Austria with a bit of Hanseatic League on the side (money has to come from somewhere).

[Dauphni]

Julian Langsdorf III, on 01 February 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

I like the way you put this. Particularly the comparison to the Ancient Greeks. I do think that's valid and its actually not the first time I've heard it. The difference is that instead of them all being "Greek" city states, some of the population clusters are not Greek by ethnicity or culture, so its more of a mix. But the city-state framework does apply. Also, later when the FWL builds warships, a lot of those warships have Greek-inspired names, like Agamemnon, Delos, Thessaly, Sparta, etc.

I think the ‘Greek city state’ reference was more to the way they were organised politically, i.e. not at all. Each state considered themselves absolutely separate from all the others, and they were constantly competing, either in war or sport. Yet they still realised that they were linked by a common language and a certain similarity in culture. The parallels to the FWL are definitely there.