166 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

xhrit, on 28 October 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

I was playing this one :

HA--- I've never actually played the mechwarrior 2 expansion. In fact outside of MW:LL I hadn't played multiplayer mechwarrior. Maybe that's why my expectations are different, but I don't think it's a bad thing to ask for objective based gameplay that caters to and rewards a wider variety of roles. Team Fortress 2 is an excellent example of a purely multiplayer game that does both, and while I understand that we can't directly translate there are good parallels.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Black Lobo, on 28 October 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Nope, that really is just a single role, just repackaged and renamed something else.

Also, for Jospeh Mallan, the Dragon missile system has been obsolete for almost 20 years now. The Javelin is what's primarily in use now.

lol We Canadians used the Javelin is what we Canadians used 20 years ago, and it was getting old then, what does that tell you. But really it doesn't matter the weapon system, even a rifle can drive off a tank in a 1v1 match if you shoot out the optics and stay hiden. The tank will go away because he doesn't know if you are going to Molitav him or not. the LAW rocket will still shred the track off a tank or if it's above, punch through the top of either the engine compartment or turret.

It's the skill of the user that determines the effectiveness of the weapon system. I think Lights will always be around, take the ECM Spider, Put BAP and Tag on it. Target Decay, extended sensor range and maybe 360 targeting. and a medium laser. Not much for fighting but it's small and can jump and if it gets itself tucked into a hole somewhere it can target you all day long for LRM boats. You would almost NEED another light on your team to give them something to worry about.

[C E Dwyer]

xhrit, on 25 October 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Tonnage is not the balancing factor in Mechwarrior, nor is it the balancing factor in battletech. C-Bills or BV is. My raven cost 12.5 million c-bills. It should be able to kill any mech in 1v1 that costs less, up to and including any 100 ton assault that costs less then 12 million cbills, such as any variant of the stock Atlas.

The system is working as intended.

Think of it this way:

The Hindenburg weighs 100 tons.

The F-35 weighs 25 tons.

By your logic, the F-35 should not be able to shoot down the Hindenburg, because the Hindenburg weighs more. You are ignoring the fact that the F-35 costs way more.





100 tons v.s. 25 tons.

My understanding is that F-35's fall out the sky quite often as well

[pbiggz]

Problem: Role Warfare has failed
Actual Problem: There is no real Role Warfare, proper rewards have not yet been implemented
Solution: IMPLEMENT IMPLEMENT IMPLEMENT

ROLE WARFARE CANNOT FAIL IF ROLE WARFARE HASN'T EVEN BEEN IMPLEMENTED YET.

[xhrit]

Prezimonto, on 29 October 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

HA--- I've never actually played the mechwarrior 2 expansion. In fact outside of MW:LL I hadn't played multiplayer mechwarrior. Maybe that's why my expectations are different, but I don't think it's a bad thing to ask for objective based gameplay that caters to and rewards a wider variety of roles. Team Fortress 2 is an excellent example of a purely multiplayer game that does both, and while I understand that we can't directly translate there are good parallels.

Netmech was not an expansion - it was the standalone multiplayer client that shipped with the enhanced versions of mechwarrior 2 (the ones that supported 3d acceleration ). voodoo glide ftw. Mechwarrior 2 is actually the reason I bought a PC. Before that I only played mechwarrior at Virtual World, in the Tesla Pods.

[Fut]

Donnie Silveray, on 25 October 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

To be honest much of Role Warfare doesn't present itself by the nature of players picking a mech and being tossed into a random matchup with somewhat ELO equivalent players. This alone causes a cascade that generally degenerates any modicum of Roles or tactics down to who can rally their team the best.

By introducing a lobby and selecting mechs while your team is present will substantially increase the level of teamwork between the 12 players. One player may go Raven 3L and say he has a Tag, another player would go Catapult with lots of LRMs and team up with the raven to more accurately land volleys as the Raven and the Catapult now know their roles when they met one another in the lobby. Much in the same way each player would, optimally, select a mech that would most benefit one another. If the team is lacking in long range firepower, some players may pick up snipers to balance.

By having the ability, least in PUG matches, to lobby up and select one's role in the greater team will likely see a resurgence of Role Warfare over people picking a mech they have most fun in and running with that at the expense of other players.

Well, I agree with you completely.
The level of play in PUGs would spike drastically if this was implemented, however, could you imagine the amount of whining that would hit the forums? I mean, a little "Ready" button and timer in the pre-game lobby (the place where people are supposed to discuss tactics..etc) has already caused a bit of a shitstorm.

[Roland]

Here is why role warfare fails:
The game modes restrict movement too such a degree, that scouting is effectively moot. Indeed, mobility itself is generally less useful, which is why heavy and assault mechs are so widespread.

Back in MW4 no-respawn play, we had no special magic incentive to play light mechs. There were no special bonuses for them. They were, effectively, just straight up weaker than other mechs.

And yet we brought them anyway. We brought them EVERY DROP.

Why? Because scouting was actually important in mechwarrior 4 No-respawn play. The maps were huge, and there were no fixed bases to capture. You could only win by killing the enemy mechs, which meant finding them and then engaging them from an advantageous position.

This required scouting with fast movers, while simultaneously moving your main lance around the map... And because there were no bases, moving your main lance didn't require you to stay on the center line of the map. Folks actually used the edges of the map (something that you NEVER see in MWO).

Scouts needed to find the enemy, and hold contact on them while the main lance tried to maneuver.

You simply do not have this aspect of gameplay depth in MWO, because complex maneuvering of the team off of the center line means that you will lose to cap.

And as a result, scouting is largely useless. And thus, a major role has been removed from mechwarrior.

This was something that actually came up way back prior to closed beta, when Bryan Eckman was talking about giving every mech a role.... this comment was noted as being odd from the perspective of a ton of old MW4 NR players, because for us, light mechs totally already HAD a role back in mechwarrior 4... they played an essential role.

[Steel Claws]

I love how some people prattle on about how this or that doesn't meet to their satisfaction. Everything is a matter of perception. People see what they want to see and nothing more. Sure some people want to use mechs in roles they really aren't made for - is that a failure of the game or a failure of the players? Should the game force people to play a certain way - I really don't think so. Mechs were designed to be versatile. Think of them as multirole fighters. should mechs be limited to specific rolls - heck no that's boring. I use lights to scout out the enemy, I may set watching the enemy force for several minutes without firing a shot but just providing target locks and information. If people think there aren't roles for all mechs to fill they are fooling themselves and if they aren't doing it - well they have no one to blame but themselves. You can do whatever you want to do - some just make better decisions than others. The uses are there if you look for them and realize what you are seeing when it happens, The game shouldn't have to beat you over the head with it - but apparently some of you desire to be lead by the nose and forced into everything.

Edited by Steel Claws, 29 October 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Until there aer "scouting" missions, or other type missions which exclude assaults, or place a weight limit on the team there is no reason to play anything in the deathmatch mode except heavy and assault. In conquest 1 light is the most a team might need, and 2 med's, while again the rest are heavy assaults.

Edited by Zerstorer Stallin, 29 October 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Krivvan]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 29 October 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Until there aer "scouting" missions, or other type missions which exclude assaults, or place a weight limit on the team there is no reason to play anything in the deathmatch mode except heavy and assault. In conquest 1 light is the most a team might need, and 2 med's, while again the rest are heavy assaults.

1 Light and 2 Meds is a terrible thing to bring. 2-4 Lights would be a better choice. 1 Light gets that light ganked.

And why "scouting missions?" Why not just make scouting a more important part of the game? Scouting is already quite necessary (although some would say trivial, even though so many teams fail to do it) on some maps and gametypes. Why force in some contrived "scouting mission" objectives?

If you have gametypes that exclude Assaults, then you have the exact same problem, just turned around.

Edited by Krivvan, 29 October 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Lykaon]

Christof Romulus, on 25 October 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

As an aside, please try to employ the following tactics IN THIS ORDER if you find yourself, for some reason, alone against a Light mech who has decided to dance with you:

1. Throw your mech into reverse. (Throttle Stop, Throttle rear)
2. Use your energy weapons to determine their lag. (Fire at them with 1 laser leading your shot to find the 'confirmation' red circle). If you have no energy weapons, use what weapons you have to.
3. If your mech has TORSO mounted energy weapons, set your torso to the LOWER height of the Light mech (Toward their legs).
4. Simultaneously turn your upper torso AND your mech's legs in the direction the Light is attempting to circle you.
5. Fire in Alpha strikes, not in chain fire.

This is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM you should be doing in a fight with a Light. If you are REMOTELY accurate with your Alpha strikes, they either are dead, or are leaving. Lights will disengage to find easier targets if you show REMOTE competence in putting shots on target.

If you are alone and you find yourself against TWO OR MORE Light mechs, the steps do not change, but there is one additional step:
Because you are outnumbered you need to even the odds instantly - Pick a Light mech and begin to focus fire ONLY IT, perform the above steps and PRETEND to ignore the second Light mech. IF you manage to down the first mech, then continue with the second - this is NOT very likely.

As you engage the first mech, the second Light will slow down and stop moving (What? How do I know that? Can I see into the future?) in order to start getting shots on you that hit the same body location (typically your legs or a side torso). Remember how I said you were PRETENDING to ignore the second light? As you are swinging around and trying to stay on target of the first light, when you finally believe you have a clean shot on the second light (due to them slowing down or stopping) you alpha them to the face, evening the fight.

Oh, and if you have your crosshair synced with your arms... yeah. Undo that.

More tips.

Counter steer against the circle strafe of a light mech that is way to fast for your mech to catch.What I mean is if a light is circling you clockwise and you can not ever get them under your guns you need to turn counter clockwise while in reverse.

If you are being wolf packed by lights and have somehow strayed to far from your team to regroup (first mistake) find the closest tightest terrain possible the more slopes the better.Light mechs do not perform so well when they collide with each other (stopping them on occation) crossfiring and friendly firing each other and needing to deal with sloping terrain creating erratic aiming and speeds.

Don't panick

[WM Jeri]

Corbon Zackery, on 28 October 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

The min you bring back knock downs. Closed Beta vets will just change tactics, and will start abusing the knockdowns again. I know all the trip tactics. "Trip the ECM raven is my favorite." So my team just shoots his back armor when he falls face first into the mud. You want knockdowns so you can exploit them not so you can kill light mechs. I cant deal with it I need my trip attack.

There are several weapons that are effective light mech killers try using them. Having a treb. with 3 large lasers and 3 streak packs near you is a good deterrent. 40ton Cicada with 6 small pulse lasers. Weapons are out there you just have to open your mind.

Go to your library and check out Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L. Shaw.

Ok, I will just jettison my 13 years and an Infanty grunt and instructor and multiple combat deployments so I can read your book and think outside the box. I know physics is hard to figure out, but I saw plenty of cars smashed by tanks.

Maybe the effect would force caution which is what recon elements should excercise, they are not designed for fire and manuver by force.

MAYBE we can organzie all all our pug drops to have a Security, Support and Assault element as well and teach them the traveling overwatch or maybe event the bounding overwatch. Hell maybe we can use TRP's and have LRM's lob missles along likely avenues of approach to deny or redirect the enemy...wait its a game so no I wont read your book, lived the life.

Best Regards

Edited by WM Jeri, 29 October 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Bring back collision and lets have an honest debate. There is currently no risk to lights running right up to heavier mechs from collision. Physics is a law you cannot ignore but the game does ignore it so this example does not support your argument as it is a straw argument.

And the game, HAS collision...mechs take damage when colliding. Your complaint is that lights don't 'die' or destroy themselves just because they run into a larger mech.

Quote

I know physics is hard to figure out, but I saw plenty of cars smashed by tanks.

good for you, however it's not relevant... want to talk tanks crashing into tanks, great, just ignore the fact of
over a century of technological advancement over current tech.

Edited by Mehlan, 29 October 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Roland]

Christof Romulus, on 25 October 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Oh, and if you have your crosshair synced with your arms... yeah. Undo that.

In mechs that have a combination of weapons in their arms and torsos, I wouldn't actually recommend just turning off arm lock. Having the two tied together greatly improves accuracy... it actually makes your arms more precise too, since having them separate actually causes your arms to move on their own when you stop moving them, as they move slightly back towards the torso reticle.

Generally, I have a key mapped to unlock/lock them, and use it when necessary... on mechs where everything is in the arms and there is no lower actuator, I'll usually play with lock off.. but for mechs with a combination, I'll play with it on, and just unlock when I need to aim out of torso range. Especially when jump sniping, say in a shadowhawk, locked arms makes you much more accurate.

Some folks choose to run with the lock off, and just push the lock button before a shot, to lock the weapons together so they all hit one location, but I've found that it's more common that I want my weapons locked together, than it is that I need to only use my arms, if I got weapons spread across both locations.

[WM Jeri]

Mehlan, on 29 October 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

And the game, HAS collision...mechs take damage when colliding. Your complaint is that lights don't 'die' or destroy themselves just because they run into a larger mech.



good for you, however it's not relevant... want to talk tanks crashing into tanks, great, just ignore the fact of
over a century of technological advancement over current tech.

Collision as it is has the effect of scraping paint. 130+ KPH and boom I hit you and 1%.

[Kaijin]

PEEFSmash is conspicuous in his absence from this thread. But what could he say? He couldn't say light mechs aren't aren't that dangerous, because he's got multitudes of screen-shots proving that they are very dangerous.

[Mehlan]

WM Jeri, on 29 October 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Collision as it is has the effect of scraping paint. 130+ KPH and boom I hit you and 1%.

1% of total armor... how much armor is on the leg of that spider? 4-5 collisions strips the leg of armor, 8-10 removes the leg.
That's a bit more than 'scraping' paint.

But want collisions...sure, go look at those charge rules. 25 ton mech, 169kph? If think mech running into each other are bad now... ROFL

Edited by Mehlan, 29 October 2013 - 03:22 PM.

[Kaijin]

Mehlan, on 29 October 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

just ignore the fact of
over a century of technological advancement over current tech.

And yet missiles travel 1/4 the speed that they did over a century before. Odd, this technological advancement. As Garth has pointed out before, the tech in MWO cannot be compared in any way to reality.

[Mehlan]

Kaijin, on 29 October 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

And yet missiles travel 1/4 the speed that they did over a century before. Odd, this technological advancement. As Garth has pointed out before, the tech in MWO cannot be compared in any way to reality.

as compared to comparing two mech classes to a tank and car? Stop and think about that for awhile...

Edited by Mehlan, 29 October 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[Psikez]

I'm glad that what amounted to a drunken rant in substance has garnered 8 pages of replies