166 replies to this topic

[Coralld]

This sounds like more of a gripe about the Spider then Lights in general. All Lights can die fast if the pilot slips up one way or another, the Spider is a different story because it is broken.

Now, I mostly play Lights and Mediums, but I also dabble in Heavies and Assaults from time to time, Cataphract 4X, Victor 9S and 9B respectively. Lights can do a number on Heavies and Assaults, but as I said, if they slip up or I get a lucky shot they usually take a lot of damage and break off, or they are so crippled, such as losing a leg, that all they can do is kiss their rears good bye.
Now, if a Heavy or Assault finds that they are being attacked by multipule Lights, there really is not much you can do but do the best you can to get back to your team and do a lot of torso twisting and shooting to keep them off your back. Now its true with what Christof has said, time your shots as best you can while making your mech dance as much as possible, however, the part where it was mentioned to focus on one mech is not really advised, other wise the second gets behind you and starts stabbing you in the back, and believe me, it doesn't take long to rip through the back side of an Atlas.

[Corvus Antaka]

Christof Romulus, on 25 October 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

1. Throw your mech into reverse. (Throttle Stop, Throttle rear)

#1 answer to the QQ.

a huge % of the playerbase has 0 idea of how to properly engage or handle light mechs. Add to this their laser builds are about the worst thing possible for killing lights.

you need the right guns,

and you need to do the right things in your assault mech with piloting

and you need to not get outnumbered or have an ac/20 or 4-5 ssrm medium covering your back.

you should never be alone in an assault mech, and your back should ideally never be exposed.

and PLEASE...plan your routes before you put that assault mech into a bad position with no where to shift to.

[aniviron]

Role Warfail.

[Coralld]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 25 October 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

#1 answer to the QQ.

a huge % of the playerbase has 0 idea of how to properly engage or handle light mechs. Add to this their laser builds are about the worst thing possible for killing lights.

you need the right guns,

and you need to do the right things in your assault mech with piloting

and you need to not get outnumbered or have an ac/20 or 4-5 ssrm medium covering your back.

you should never be alone in an assault mech, and your back should ideally never be exposed.

and PLEASE...plan your routes before you put that assault mech into a bad position with no where to shift to.

This, all this, right here.

[FupDup]

xhrit, on 25 October 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Tonnage is not the balancing factor in Mechwarrior, nor is it the balancing factor in battletech. C-Bills or BV is. My raven cost 12.5 million c-bills. It should be able to kill any mech in 1v1 that costs less, up to and including any 100 ton assault that costs less then 12 million cbills, such as any variant of the stock Atlas.

The system is working as intended.

Think of it this way:

The Hindenburg weighs 100 tons.

The F-35 weighs 25 tons.

By your logic, the F-35 should not be able to shoot down the Hindenburg, because the Hindenburg weighs more. You are ignoring the fact that the F-35 costs way more.





100 tons v.s. 25 tons.

I dunno how far I'd trust C-Bills. After all, the LBX is the most expensive weapon in the game...lulz. C-Bills are also an infinitely renewable resource in that you can simply play more matches to get more, and there is no limit to how much you can get other than how often you play. You can also speed it up using premium time and hero mechs, which means that C-Bill-based balancing might end up kinda pay2win in that people who fork over more real money get to use the best builds all the time.

[Jman5]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

The numbers people have recorded show lights and mediums to be 1/2 to 3/4 as popular as heavies and assaults.

It's awful right now. I've never seen so many people piloting assaults before. I would be perfectly happy with this if the few mediums/lights in the game abused their mobility to cap, but you can't do it without people screaming bloody murder. The handful of games that do have an unusual number of lights/mediums are generally from obvious 4-man groups screwing around. Of course inevitably the otherside will out-ton them by miles. The one game I played today where there were just a mere 14 assault/heavies, it was because one team had a couple of ultra light premades for 595 tons vs their normal team of 845 tons. Needless to say it was a slaughter.

This game would be a lot more fun if there was more equality in mech choices. Right now my average games are seeing 3/4 in assault/heavies. With that brings all those whithering long range alphas people dislike. The only reason mediums are seen as lacking is because they're forced to compete against teams with 8 or 9 assaults/heavies.

Edited by Jman5, 25 October 2013 - 10:08 PM.

[Deathlike]

Nerf me.


I had a good game.


MM Trolling v1 - 8 lights on my team.


Not an easy map to cap on at times.



MM Trolling v2 - 12 lights total in the match.



This rarely happens as it is in AssaultWarrior.

There isn't much role warfare to be found, let alone enough lights in my cherry picked screenshots.

[xhrit]

FupDup, on 25 October 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

C-Bills are also an infinitely renewable resource in that you can simply play more matches to get more, and there is no limit to how much you can get other than how often you play.

The limit is to how many cbills you can spend ON A SINGLE MECH.

After all you don't add up the tonnage for every mech in a user's mech bay when you balance by weight do you?

[Huntrava]

It's very, very obvious why lights are less popular than heavies. I've spelled it out cogently but if 5 lines are confusing you can just read numbers 1 and 5.

• The game is focused on kills. (People get pissed if you cap instead of brawl.)
  
• You kill enemies by damaging them.
  
• Weapons cause damage.
  
• Big mechs carry lots of weapons.
  
• Big mechs get lots of kills.

​In essence, absent any dynamic game modes, players will develop their strategies for the game modes they are presented with. So far, it's just blowing up other mechs.

[Khobai]

Quote

Tonnage is not the balancing factor in Mechwarrior, nor is it the balancing factor in battletech. C-Bills or BV is. My raven cost 12.5 million c-bills. It should be able to kill any mech in 1v1 that costs less, up to and including any 100 ton assault that costs less then 12 million cbills, such as any variant of the stock Atlas.

The system is working as intended.

Think of it this way:

The Hindenburg weighs 100 tons.

The F-35 weighs 25 tons.

By your logic, the F-35 should not be able to shoot down the Hindenburg, because the Hindenburg weighs more. You are ignoring the fact that the F-35 costs way more.

Your logic is just as bad. just because a raven costs 12.5 million doesnt mean it should be able to 1v1 anything that costs less. different weight classes should have different roles and the role of the raven should not be combat. ravens in particular should be sensor warfare experts.

[Corwin Vickers]

And then we'd have even less light mechs?

If you are lucky you might meet one of the mythical Electronics Warfare ravens but don't blink because his over size leg hit boxes (a relic of an earlier time) don't last long.

Most people don't play this game to sneak around and collect spotting bonuses.

If you play assault mechs and think light mechs should be "scouts" only then why won't we try it out with the assault mechs first. See how much fun you have scouting.

Jenner with 2 ERPPCs, a gauss rifle, and a LRM 10 running around.

Atlas with ECM a medium laser and 2 machineguns.

Sounds like fun to me.

[FupDup]

xhrit, on 25 October 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

The limit is to how many cbills you can spend ON A SINGLE MECH.

After all you don't add up the tonnage for every mech in a user's mech bay when you balance by weight do you?

You missed the point. Anyone can eventually buy their way up to the most expensive single mech. If we balance by "more expensive = better" then there would come an endpoint where almost everyone has that most expensive unit and stuff gets repetitive. The core issue with cost balancing is that it has a built-in expiration date for when it stops being a factor.

Mech balancing needs to be done based on the iconic "role warfare" idea that never quite surfaced in Mechwarrior: Online. All mechs/classes would have their own little niche/role that they excel at doing, and they would need the assistance of the roles of their teammates in order to win the day (just like their team needs them in return). If your team lacked a certain class or role then your team would be at a significant weakness. C-Bill costs are just for fluff/lore reasons, and tonnage is just a construction limit.

Edited by FupDup, 26 October 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Appogee]

WM Mangonel, on 25 October 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

when a 30 ton mechs decide it's more advantageous for them to brawl mechs 2-3x their tonnage then your game needs some adjusting.

This is a common misconception.

In fact, Lights SHOULD be able to take on Assaults if they play well and use intelligent tactics. It is [speed+manoeverability] vs [armor+firepower].

The game would be dull as dishwasher if bigger was always better.

Edited by Appogee, 26 October 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[xhrit]

FupDup, on 26 October 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

You missed the point. Anyone can eventually buy their way up to the most expensive single mech. If we balance by "more expensive = better" then there would come an endpoint where almost everyone has that most expensive unit and stuff gets repetitive. The core issue with cost balancing is that it has a built-in expiration date for when it stops being a factor.

Mech balancing needs to be done based on the iconic "role warfare" idea that never quite surfaced in Mechwarrior: Online. All mechs/classes would have their own little niche/role that they excel at doing, and they would need the assistance of the roles of their teammates in order to win the day (just like their team needs them in return). If your team lacked a certain class or role then your team would be at a significant weakness. C-Bill costs are just for fluff/lore reasons, and tonnage is just a construction limit.

Role warfare is just like roles in role playing game. The roles in a RPG are Fighter, Mage, and Thief.

What you are arguing is that Thief should never, ever, under any circumstance, be able to defeat a fighter in 1v1, simply because the Fighter's gear (plate, armor, sword and shield sword) weighs twice as much as the Thief's gear (leather armor and daggers). That is not thw way it should be. Thief should be able to kill fighter if the Thief sneaks up behind the fighter and stabs him in the back; conversely the Fighter should be able to 2 shot a Thief if the Fighter gets some good hits in.

The roles in mechwarrior are Brawler, Firesupport, Scout.

They almost match up 1 for 1 with RPG classes.

Brawlers and Fighters both stand up close and tank stuff, while Mages and Firesupport stand back and pepper the enemy from long range. Scouts and Thiefs use their speed and stealth to get behind the enemy and hit them in the back. All roles can fight and kill all other roles in 1v1 combat, although there are some circumstances in which some rolls are better suited against others. Thus, all mechs/classes have their own little niche/role that they excel at doing, and they need the assistance of the roles of their teammates in order to win the day (just like their team needs them in return). If a team lacked a certain class or role then said team is at a significant weakness.



ROLE WARFARE.
WORKING AS INTENDED.

Edited by xhrit, 26 October 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[FupDup]

xhrit, on 26 October 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Role warfare is just like roles in role playing game. The roles in a RPG are Fighter, Mage, and Thief.

What you are arguing is that Thief should never, ever, under any circumstance, be able to defeat a fighter in 1v1, simply because the Fighter's gear (plate, armor, sword and shield sword) weighs twice as much as the Thief's gear (leather armor and daggers). That is not thw way it should be. Thief should be able to kill fighter if the Thief sneaks up behind the fighter and stabs him in the back; conversely the Fighter should be able to 2 shot a Thief if the Fighter gets some good hits in.

Depends on just how rigid the system is.

In my own eyes, the winner of a 1v1 should be based more on the loadout types than just weight of their gear. For instance, a light like the Piranha with 12 MGs would brutalize the back of an assault mech but suck at fighting fast mechs (due to the inaccuracy of MGs), whereas a light mech with less armaments such as the Raven 3L would be oriented more around causing electronic havoc such as jamming sensors, stealthing friendlies, creating "decoys" to confuse the enemy, etc. etc. Likewise, an assault mech armed with mostly LRMs would suck at fighting off a vicious light such as the Piranha, but would excel against large slow targets. An assault armed with weapons like pulse lasers and AC/20, however, would have a much easier time fighting against fasties (but not guaranteed to auto-win by any means).

xhrit, on 26 October 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

The roles in mechwarrior are Brawler, Firesupport, Scout.

They almost match up 1 for 1 with RPG classes.

Brawlers and Fighters both stand up close and tank stuff, while Mages and Firesupport stand back and pepper the enemy from long range. Scouts and Thiefs use their speed and stealth to get behind the enemy and hit them in the back. All roles can fight and kill all other roles in 1v1 combat, although there are some circumstances in which some rolls are better suited against others. All mechs/classes have their own little niche/role that they excel at doing, and they need the assistance of the roles of their teammates in order to win the day (just like their team needs them in return). If a team lacked a certain class or role then said team is at a significant weakness.



ROLE WARFARE.
WORKING AS INTENDED.

The "scout" role is kinda lame right now because enemies tend to go to the same spots every time, so reporting their positions can become redundant. I think the word for the fast mech's role you're looking for is "harasser" (or "rogue" might work as well). Otherwise, this game is just about destroying robots for the most part, and robots that are best at destroying robots tend to have the advantage. Mediums specifically are stuck in a hard place between lights and heavies, because they can't really do much that those other two classes can't specialize at better.

[MischiefSC]

I will say this - my Jenner is my best mech in terms of KDR for mechs I have over 100 drops in.

HOWEVER.

That's because I struggled and struggled to learn exactly how to use it effectively. For about my first 50 matches I couldn't kill anything, it was like being in a Locust. I have to really be on my game to be in the mood to take my Jenner out now (Get 'em good!) and the difference in KDR between it and most of my assaults is about 0.12. It does NOT have my best win/loss rate, I'm just better at being a backstabbing kill stealing S.O.B in it.

My stats in a Spider are nowhere near as good as they are for my Jenner.

Go pilot a Spider for 50 drops. Seriously, I entreat you. Then post your stats here with your 3.0 win/loss and over 3.0 KDR while pugging. I want to see it. Then tell me your secret because I can't do it.

Role warfare is gone because it's true, seismic and ECM and UAV in the manner in which they've been implemented have destroyed any use for scouting. Mediums move the same speed as Heavies but with less armor and firepower.

As to lights though, please. I'm serious. Pick one, do your absolute best in it and show me your stats of you being unstoppable in one. Show us how its done. I got spiders because I was having issues with them, now I understand why it's not the issue people think it is and why people feel that way. Don't take this the wrong way but have you considered that the issue is how you're playing and not the lights themselves?

[xhrit]

FupDup, on 26 October 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

The "scout" role is kinda lame right now because enemies tend to go to the same spots every time, so reporting their positions can become redundant. I think the word for the fast mech's role you're looking for is "harasser" (or "rogue" might work as well).

A rose by any other name.

Example 1 : a totally different game with scouts who's role is to steath behind an enemy and backstab for massive DPS.



Example 2 : USMC Marine Force Recon. They are scouts, who's role is to steath behind an enemy and 1 shot someone from a mile away.

Edited by xhrit, 26 October 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Reith Dynamis]

xhrit, on 25 October 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Tonnage is not the balancing factor in Mechwarrior, nor is it the balancing factor in battletech. C-Bills or BV is. My raven cost 12.5 million c-bills. It should be able to kill any mech in 1v1 that costs less, up to and including any 100 ton assault that costs less then 12 million cbills, such as any variant of the stock Atlas.

The system is working as intended.

Think of it this way:

The Hindenburg weighs 100 tons.

The F-35 weighs 25 tons.

By your logic, the F-35 should not be able to shoot down the Hindenburg, because the Hindenburg weighs more. You are ignoring the fact that the F-35 costs way more.

So you argument is lets use something that is not used for anything other then transportation against a bird of prey? You've have never heard of comparing apples to oranges? cause this is more like comparing golf balls to watermelons. This argument is full of rhetoric from someone who understands little. You're argument is akin to letting a Humvee with a gun pod be able to take out a tank simply cause it can roll circles around it.

I can not believe you have rationalized that simply cause you dumped all you're C-bills into a 25 ton mech it should solo anything at all despite it being a light mech? Cause SAMS taking out Fighters doesn't happen cause the money we spend on fighters makes SAMS look like pennies in the pocket? WTF are you talking about?!?! Role warfare can not be accomplished with mechs being used outside of their designation.

You know I get it, You're one of them ignorant believing in their ignorance.

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 26 October 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[Reith Dynamis]

xhrit, on 26 October 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

A rose by any other name.

Example 1 : a totally different game in which the scouts don't scout, but rather are Rouges; Rangers and Assassins who backstab with massive DPS.

Example 2 : USMC Marine Force Recon. They are scouts, who could 1 shot someone from a mile away.

First of all this is not a RPG with mechs in it, Its a Simuliation to a degree with RPG aspects. whole different Ballpark.

Scouts don't fight **** with armor nor do they engage in close quarters and they're designed not to be spotted. Where does this happen in MWO? it doesn't.

I would luv to say that you should think before you post but its a apparent you rationalize anything.

Edited by Reith Dynamis, 26 October 2013 - 08:02 AM.

[Rasako]

Krivvan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

They were collected by players. Not PGI.

Here we go.

that just reinforces his argument you dumb ***! none of you have any access to REAL numbers so this entire thread is just a ******* contest in and of itself. All we have to go on is what PGI has said and even they know that lights (particularly the spider and jenner) have serious hitbox problems and said they'd be looking into them