106 replies to this topic

[Mudhutwarrior]

LOL, the pro defenders have arrived.....

[Wispsy]

The ER Large Laser is more useful then the Large Laser.


You people lol

[Alistair Winter]

Tjalf, on 27 October 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Nice Conspiracy-methods people are using here. Of course, if you only consider the stats of a weapon regardless of its advantages/purpose and don't keep in mind the variing playstyle of different mech-chassis - yeah, most weapons suck. Thats how you create a conspiracy, leave out the relevant facts

I don't think you know what the word conspiracy means. No one is suggesting a conspiracy here.

Tjalf, on 27 October 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

do you want to kill lights? use SSRM2 or pulse lasers, because the shorter the duration of your laser, the more damage you inflict to that annoying fast mech

Yes, that's the idea behind the pulse laser, but it obviously depends on the stats to see if the shorter pulse is worthwhile. What if the pulse laser has 50% more heat than the normal laser? Still worth it? What if it has 10 times more heat than the normal laser? We all know how it's supposed to work. Unfortunately, it's not working as intended, even though PGI will tell you that it is.

Mudhutwarrior, on 27 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

LOL, the pro defenders have arrived.....

How to win an argument.

• Write a smug one-liner.
  
• Include LOL or a similar acronym.
  
• As a final coup de grâce, finish the one-liner with an ellipsis. For extra effect, use five periods instead of the standard three.
  
• Walk away like a boss

[Mudhutwarrior]

Not smug, Just been here long enough to know if its a serious problem most players feel then its directly proportional to how many defenders jump in to make sure it dies a quick death. If the pro posters prove inneffective at quelling the disturbance then the thread gets moved sown into the rabbit hole.

No one is fooled amongst the active open thinkers here.

[Alistair Winter]

Mudhutwarrior, on 27 October 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Not smug, Just been here long enough to know if its a serious problem most players feel then its directly proportional to how many defenders jump in to make sure it dies a quick death. If the pro posters prove inneffective at quelling the disturbance then the thread gets moved sown into the rabbit hole.
No one is fooled amongst the active open thinkers here.

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Misunderstood your comment. And I agree.

[MadCat02]

Dirkdaring, on 27 October 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

My 2.09 KDR says differently. Just because you suck at it doesn't mean everyone else does too.
STALKER STK-3F 444 245 198 1.24 468 224 2.09 152,846 284,204 1 day 19:22:44

MY KDA is 2.59 and i used SRMS way more than anyone else .

My misery and stalkers have 3.00-4.00 KDA

Get on my level before attacking me

Edited by MadCat02, 27 October 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MadCat02, on 26 October 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I have used and found every weapon effective at some point in MWO history . What happened ?

PGU "we are happy with the current state of weapon balancing "

State where most weapons are not worth bringing into the game ?


LRMS- lets have 3 upgrades just so there weapon works and maybe not even then !

Its funny that even with all bonuses LRMS still manage to miss targets with a lock-on .

People just poke lrm boaters from the cover and there nothing they can do about that .

LRMS still need more damage .

Medium Pulse Lasers- 1 DAMAGE WILL NEVER MAKE UP FOR 1 EXTRA TON, 1 HEAT and shorter range .Id rather shoot up to 540 meters than have 20% more damage for 100% more weight.

Don't give me that shorter duration {Scrap} . If you can apply damage faster you can miss it faster as well .

THEY WERE FINE AT 1.5 ton . HOW DID THEY GET NERFED!

LBX10-Do you think i care when people shoot me with LBX10 at 400 meters? Well i don't because they will run out of bullets if i don't come closer .

If not than get ac20 .

ER PPC- the problem with ER PPCs is that even 2 don't leave enough heat gauge to use other weapons .

2ER PPC+4 mediums . Runs too hot

2ER PPC+SRMS . Not practical Runs too hot

2ER PPC+2 AC 2 or 2 AC5. Not practical . Runs too hot and weights too much

Keep ghost heat but reduce ER PPC heat .

Machineguns,Flamer,Small Pulse Laser- i don't know what to say because medium laser is always a better choice .

AC10- Its kinda like a middle child between Gauss and AC20 that isn't good at any role.

this post is full of so much fail it ain't even funny.

there are a small handful of weapons that still need love to be useful, the SPLaser, LpLaser and Flamer. And since the all but the Medium Pulse Lasers were essentially pointless in TT, why would you expect them to be good here? Ditto the flamer.

As for the ac10? you are definitely doing it wrong. The ac10 might be the gem of the ac family, but also the least understood. It's heavy. It also hits like a PPC, has good range, decent projectile speed, decent ammo endurance and oh yeah, low heat with no ghost heat burden. It does not hit with the authority of the ac20, but then it also is reloaded in 2.5 seconds. Especially when paired, it outstrips the PPC rapidly, as it has no minimum range, a nearly 300 meter greater range, faster RoF and little heat. In fact in 10 seconds, a pair of ac10 can lay out 80 damage for a laughable 16 heat, to the PPCs, which will have laid out 40 damage for 40 heat. And the longer the battle goes, the more the balance tips in the ffavor of the ac10.

And any imagined weight savings with PPCs are largely ate up in heat sinks, and even then, you will find yourself having to hold fire, slap override and use coolshots, while the 10s keep hammering.

Compared to other ballistics, the ac10 is superior to the ac20 in range, ammo consumption, cooldown/reload heat and ghost heat along with projectile speed. The 20 does better alpha damage.

Compared to Gauss, it has far better RoF, no charge mechanic, better ammo consumption. The Guass does have better range, heat, projectile speed and alpha damage.

With the ac2/5 you are changing the whole game by going on purely dps, not alpha capability, which leaves your mech exposed (plus the ac2 does laughable damage unless in 3-4 gun groups, and then the heat is atrocious)

UACs? They jam. A lot.

Mind you,are there issues with some weapons? Well srm hit detection is spotty. But most of the stuff is minor. Just sounds like the OP has no idea what he is doing or simply wants to cause more anti PGI QQ. If the latter, go pick one of the REAL issues with the game instead of a poorly thought out attempt like the OP.

[Wildstreak]

Weapon use depends on having an open mind to see more than just damage value.

LRMs - useful in making enemies scurry for cover or change from attacking to dodging to avoid getting hit. One LRM salvo can make an enemy duck under cover instead of snipe or force a light opponent to run around avoiding a hit instead of harassing a teammate.

MPL - useful for those who hit more accurately. When were MPL ever 1.5 ton?

LBX - useful in providing a Ballistic weapon with a better chance of hitting fast moving Mechs, I used one well on my HBK-4H. If you want to prey on fast Mechs, you pack it. For bigger opponents, you just get close and/or use it to harass/distract.

ER PPC - never a big PPC user but when I last used them, I was able to suffer less heat and remove heat better than a LL. If they make more heat now, good, they should NOT provide better heat abilities than a LL. I also recall when PPCs had better heat values, they were all over the place and people complained, let us NOT go back to that.

MGs - only lightweight Ballistic weapon sadly, I tried to get other ones considered plus have the cone removed (made no sense to me since no Infantry in game). Best used against damaged Mechs or in Light duels.

Flamers - have not used or kept up with what happened to these, they used to suck royally and were carried for fun value.

SPL - I think it was starting to get where it should be, value depends on Mech carrying it compared to a ML.

AC10 - bull, on certain Ballistic Mechs AC10 is a valid choice. Example, JagerMechs; a dual AC20 gives up a lot of tonnage in armor/engine making it weak, a dual Gauss can have its arms blown off + suffer torso hits more from weapon damage, but a dual AC10 gets more armor/speed than dual AC20 and never suffers from weapon damage while getting some decent range, almost half the cooldown time and has more ammo per ton than either AC20 or Gauss. AC10 can also fit in the arms of some Mechs better than an AC20 plus has faster projectile speed.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Alistair Winter, on 27 October 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Misunderstood your comment. And I agree.

Thank you, you are a true gentleman.

[MadCat02]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 October 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

this post is full of so much fail it ain't even funny.

there are a small handful of weapons that still need love to be useful, the SPLaser, LpLaser and Flamer. And since the all but the Medium Pulse Lasers were essentially pointless in TT, why would you expect them to be good here? Ditto the flamer.

As for the ac10? you are definitely doing it wrong. The ac10 might be the gem of the ac family, but also the least understood. It's heavy. It also hits like a PPC, has good range, decent projectile speed, decent ammo endurance and oh yeah, low heat with no ghost heat burden. It does not hit with the authority of the ac20, but then it also is reloaded in 2.5 seconds. Especially when paired, it outstrips the PPC rapidly, as it has no minimum range, a nearly 300 meter greater range, faster RoF and little heat. In fact in 10 seconds, a pair of ac10 can lay out 80 damage for a laughable 16 heat, to the PPCs, which will have laid out 40 damage for 40 heat. And the longer the battle goes, the more the balance tips in the ffavor of the ac10.

And any imagined weight savings with PPCs are largely ate up in heat sinks, and even then, you will find yourself having to hold fire, slap override and use coolshots, while the 10s keep hammering.

Compared to other ballistics, the ac10 is superior to the ac20 in range, ammo consumption, cooldown/reload heat and ghost heat along with projectile speed. The 20 does better alpha damage.

Compared to Gauss, it has far better RoF, no charge mechanic, better ammo consumption. The Guass does have better range, heat, projectile speed and alpha damage.

With the ac2/5 you are changing the whole game by going on purely dps, not alpha capability, which leaves your mech exposed (plus the ac2 does laughable damage unless in 3-4 gun groups, and then the heat is atrocious)

UACs? They jam. A lot.

Mind you,are there issues with some weapons? Well srm hit detection is spotty. But most of the stuff is minor. Just sounds like the OP has no idea what he is doing or simply wants to cause more anti PGI QQ. If the latter, go pick one of the REAL issues with the game instead of a poorly thought out attempt like the OP.

UAC2 is effective not because of its damage but because enemy can't aim as long as you keep shooting them .

UAC/5 as much is its nerfed is still 15% better than ac/5 . AC10 has misarble damage/range for its tonnag .

Misery is my most played mech and AC20 pushed it to 4.00+ KDA . I can't tell you how many times i killed 9 + people doing 60 damage alphas .

Edited by MadCat02, 27 October 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Barantor]

NamesAreStupid, on 27 October 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

50% by my count
Yellow ones are debatable and I put all the SRMs and LRMs in the same group (even if SRMs/LRMs were useful SRM2 and LRM20 would be useless).

It is funny because I am about as colorblind as you can be and even though I read and know better it looks like a list with only the bottom 4 weapons highlighted and the rest the same.

"A gun doesn't pull the trigger boys, the shooter does."

Makes me wonder why the ones everyone says are 'useful' aren't classified as 'no skill' like the lrms get...

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 26 October 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

I stopped taking the thread seriously after reading the name of the OP that posted it.

...oh.

Well, thanks for saving me a ton of time reading the rest of the thread!

[Bishop Steiner]

MadCat02, on 27 October 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

UAC2 is effective not because of its damage but because enemy can't aim as long as you keep shooting them .

UAC/5 as much is its nerfed is still 15% better than ac/5 . AC10 has misarble damage/range for its tonnag .

Misery is my most played mech and AC20 pushed it to 4.00+ KDA . I can't tell you how many times i killed 9 + people doing 60 damage alphas .

sure, if you have the tonnage and a backup weapon always take the ac20.

That said, if you cannot use ac10s effectively, that's a you problem. I have over a dozen 1000+ damage matches, with 5-9 kills using ac10s. In fact, they are the only weapons I regularly rack up over 800 damage with. Most other solid builds for me sit between 500-750. And that ain't using assault mechs, but Jagers and my Ilya.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I do 1000 every match with SPL's only. LOL

[Dirkdaring]

MadCat02, on 27 October 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

MY KDA is 2.59 and i used SRMS way more than anyone else .

My misery and stalkers have 3.00-4.00 KDA

Get on my level before attacking me

Umm you're the dude who's saying its not practice. It very obviously is. So why are you saying in your very first post it's not? WTF?

[ArmageddonKnight]

Ballistic:
AC20 - ok.
AC10 - ok.
AC5 - ok
AC2 - ghost heat broken (1)
UAC5 - ok (could use work)
Machine guns - needs work (2)
LB 10-X AC - ok
Gauss Rifle - ok (but doesnt need the charge anymore)

Energy:
ER large laser - ok
ERPPC - To hot (3)
Flamer - useless (4)
Large Laser - ok
Large pulse laser - not balanced (5)
Med pulse laser - ok (though needs buff)
Medium laser - ok.
PPC - ok.
Small laser - ok
Small Pulse laser - (needs buff) (6)

Missile:
LRM 5 - ok
LRM 10 - ok
LRM 15 - ok
LRM 20 - ok
SRM 2 - usless (7)
SRM 4 - ok
SRM 6 - ok
Streak SRM 2 - ok

7 of 26 = 27%

The main issue is how these 'working' weapons work together in the mechs. Thanks to the fact we have no hardpoint limitations in place, and we have pinpoint single location convergence, the best idea is to fit the biggest alpha possible. So we dont tend to see balanced setups all to often.

MWO balance has alot mroe to do with multiple issues rather than just one. Unfortantly the changes required to make the game balanced would requir far to much change in the current way the game works. that and PGI seem intent on making MWo work the way it is now by using bandaid over bandaid over bandaid fixes to try and solve its flaws.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 27 October 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[MischiefSC]

mike29tw, on 26 October 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

This makes me curious. Perhaps I should switch out my dual PPCs for dual ERPPCs for a few run. What is your heat efficiency at btw?

1.17, but remember - you don't alpha all at once. You pull the MLs off and it's like 1.26. The two PPCs alone are like 1.3 or 1.4. I get 3 or 4 shots before I need to lean back under cover. That's the part I need to get used to - first, stay at long range as long as you can. I'm a brawler at heart and I keep wanting to close. At 700 to 900m I can actually square off against 2 or 3 mechs - remember, you're dropping 20/shot, you're only taking 1-3/shot in return. Next is when you brawl stick to the MLs and the UAC5s. Save the ERPPCs for when you've got dark yellow to orange internals on a side or CT. Don't be afraid to run because range is your biggest advantage. Even just staying beyond 300 reduces the ML damage you take and starts really cutting the sting out of AC20s.

I'll be honest, I'll probably never go back to regular PPCs again. The heat feels better but it essentially requires you to stay at optimal range for most ACs which make up a lot of the field today. If I stay beyond 500m my Cataphract doesn't feel that fragile at all while the ERPPCs are still hitting like a ton of bricks. While my KDR isn't skyrocketing my win/loss is going way up. It's all about relative armor when the fight closes to everyone elses optimal 150-300m range. If I've left the enemies with red/no armor on a side torso or two while the same locations on my teams armor is still fresh or yellow I've actually impacted my teams total success.

Try it. Takes some getting used to but I like it.

[Black Lobo]

I just read all these posts, and I shake my head. I still heartily stand by the CANON fact that ACs fire a stream of projectiles, not one giant slug. Hell, MW3 had it halfway right, IMHO. That would mean that, like lasers, you'd be able to walk your damage over a target. This and the gauss "delay" are the two biggest problems I see with this game right now. Well, toss in heat balancing, and you'd have a fully rounded out post. But I'm sure there are plenty of "experts" in here who will shout me down and say that I'm just a crumby player and have no idea what I'm talking about or doing. They'd be half right, I'm a crumby player. But I have a clue (owning most of the original BT novels gives you an idea), and on top of that I have actual REAL WORLD experience with ordnance (thank you, USMC EOD), so I'm just saying... (notice the ellipsis there at the end, because I'm a BAMF)

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 October 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

sure, if you have the tonnage and a backup weapon always take the ac20.

That said, if you cannot use ac10s effectively, that's a you problem. I have over a dozen 1000+ damage matches, with 5-9 kills using ac10s. In fact, they are the only weapons I regularly rack up over 800 damage with. Most other solid builds for me sit between 500-750. And that ain't using assault mechs, but Jagers and my Ilya.

It's the faster rate of fire and projectile speed IMO. I'm also turning into a good AC10 fan. It's the law of averages where it helps you. Dual AC10s fire a bit faster, a bit further than the AC20. They don't overheat - ever. It's almost like gauss that way. Faster ROF and projectile speed means less missed opportunities. No ghost heat issues means lower constant overall heat which equates to more longevity when being the aggressor.

Result? AC10s perform solid but not exceptional all the time. When you do have a breakaway opportunity on a hot map in a brawl where everyone is overheating and mostly dead all of a sudden you're the guy who isn't having to not take that kill-shot because you'll overheat mid-brawl. You're that guy going 'Twenty points in the CT for you, twenty for you, twenty for you..' and just suddenly wracking up a string of late-match kills.

AC10s main advantage is not costing you opportunities. It doesn't jam at the wrong time, it saves you 6 tons over the dual AC5 which turns into more support weapons, it runs stone cold and has a pretty swift speed to target. It's trading a narrow area of advantage for a broader range of opportunities.

IMO anyone who runs triple AC5s should try 2x10s, 2 extra LLs and 4 extra DHS for the same weight and almost the same crit spaces (assuming you'll also run with 2 tons less ammo feeding 2 guns not 3). More DPS, more flexible performance in my experience.

[Wildstreak]

Black Lobo, on 27 October 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I just read all these posts, and I shake my head. I still heartily stand by the CANON fact that ACs fire a stream of projectiles, not one giant slug. Hell, MW3 had it halfway right, IMHO. That would mean that, like lasers, you'd be able to walk your damage over a target. This and the gauss "delay" are the two biggest problems I see with this game right now. Well, toss in heat balancing, and you'd have a fully rounded out post. But I'm sure there are plenty of "experts" in here who will shout me down and say that I'm just a crumby player and have no idea what I'm talking about or doing. They'd be half right, I'm a crumby player. But I have a clue (owning most of the original BT novels gives you an idea), and on top of that I have actual REAL WORLD experience with ordnance (thank you, USMC EOD), so I'm just saying... (notice the ellipsis there at the end, because I'm a BAMF)

I am not sure on 'Gauss delay' because I have no idea what that is else I would have Liked your post.
100% agree on AC streaming and some heat balancing.

Edited by Merchant, 27 October 2013 - 12:22 PM.