287 replies to this topic

[Dr Herbert West]

Geek Verve, on 27 November 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

This is actually kind of hilarious. "I'll show you! You're not getting any of my money, until you do xxx!!!" If you think one or ten or even fifty people "threatening" to keep their wallets closed will force a particular feature into/out of the game

Check the poll attached to this thread. About 1/3 of the the players still reading this forum require 1PV to play. Subtract those doing 12-mans and you have about 1/4 of the players still reading this forum who aren't even playing the game at all. This doesn't include all of the players who have quit completely and don't read the forums anymore because of 3PV.

I doubt these players are paying for anything right now. That is not an inconsequential amount of money, and PGI would be foolish to ignore it.

EDIT: Additionally, there are two cases I can think of where PGI actually changed something in response to players complaining loudly on the forums. The first was RnR, which was removed after alot of players complained and threatened to quit. The second was bumping SRM damage up to 2.0 from 1.5 (they even created a poll for this one).

However, they chose to ignore the community on 3PV even though the outcry was far and away the loudest and most unified response to anything in MWO ever (and remember, I've been active on these forums since last July, so I know). I suspect that they did this because they figured they could make more money selling paints/heroes if players could see their mechs, than they would lose ******* off players. I suspect that they were wrong.

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....well, I would simply ask that you give Mr. Roarke and Tattoo my regards.

What.

Edited by Dr Herbert West, 27 November 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Geek Verve]

Dr Herbert West, on 27 November 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Check the poll attached to this thread. About 1/3 of the the players still reading this forum require 1PV to play. Subtract those doing 12-mans and you have about 1/4 of the players still reading this forum who aren't even playing the game at all. This doesn't include all of the players who have quit completely and don't read the forums anymore because of 3PV.

The number of people reading the forums is typically very small compared to the number playing the game. Then consider that the percentage of players who primarily play in 12-man matches is even smaller still...

Dr Herbert West, on 27 November 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

EDIT: Additionally, there are two cases I can think of where PGI actually changed something in response to players complaining loudly on the forums. The first was RnR, which was removed after alot of players complained and threatened to quit. The second was bumping SRM damage up to 2.0 from 1.5 (they even created a poll for this one).

I didn't say they never changed things based on feedback. I said they base their decisions to do so on whether they feel it is in the best interests of the game. They certainly consider what they hear from the community. My point was simply that those few people getting all up in arms, claiming refusal to spend one red cent on the game until their demands are met are *not* what effects changes.

Dr Herbert West, on 27 November 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

However, they chose to ignore the community on 3PV even though the outcry was far and away the loudest and most unified response to anything in MWO ever (and remember, I've been active on these forums since last July, so I know). I suspect that they did this because they figured they could make more money selling paints/heroes if players could see their mechs, than they would lose ******* off players. I suspect that they were wrong.

The interesting thing is that outside of this thread, I rarely hear anyone even mention 3PV. If you post a thread (especially with a poll - people love polls), people will offer their opinions. However, it's just like anything else. You are going to hear far more from those with complaints. Those who don't care or are happy with the way things are often don't bother even weighing in on the matter. This poll only has 180 total votes for crying out loud. So you have 50+ people "claiming" they don't want to play MWO with 3PV.

Edited by Geek Verve, 27 November 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Dr Herbert West]

Geek Verve, on 27 November 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

The number of people reading the forums is typically very small compared to the number playing the game. Then consider that the percentage of players who primarily play in 12-man matches is even smaller still...

I'm guessing you weren't following the thread ~7 pages ago (not criticising), but we went over this.

The short version is that there is the priniciple of the statistical sample says that information from a small number of individuals from a population can provide information about the population at large, and that there is no reason to assume that the forum poll isn't a representation of the population at large on this particular question. You can find my final arguments here. If you want to discuss/challenge these points, please go ahead.

.

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I didn't say they never changed things based on feedback. I said they base their decisions to do so on whether they feel it is in the best interests of the game. They certainly consider what they hear from the community. My point was simply that those few people getting all up in arms, claiming refusal to spend one red cent on the game until their demands are met are *not* what effects changes

Your exact words were ...

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If you think one or ten or even fifty people "threatening" to keep their wallets closed will force a particular feature into/out of the game

And my point was that this mechanism (i.e. complaining on the forum and threatening to quit) has worked before in the past. Thats all. That said, I am not optimistic about PGIGP changing their stance on 3PV.

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The interesting thing is that outside of this thread, I rarely hear anyone even mention 3PV. If you post a thread (especially with a poll - people love polls), people will offer their opinions. However, it's just like anything else. You are going to hear far more from those with complaints. Those who don't care or are happy with the way things are often don't bother even weighing in on the matter. This poll only has 180 total votes for crying out loud. So you have 50+ people "claiming" they don't want to play MWO with 3PV.

First of all, there are two threads currently active about 3PV in other subforums. Secondly, do you remember the outcry against 3PV? There has never been a stronger or more unified reaction to anything else in MWO. Do you think these people just went away, or do you think its more reasonable that they just stopped posting. Anecdotally, the perception among forums I visit is that PGI just doesn't listen to us anymore ... so why post?

Again, see the first part about statistical samples. In real life, for example, Nate Silver was able to predict the entire 2012 presidential election, down to the state level, relying on nothing more than polls. These polls only involved a couple hundred people, and yet the information from them was generalizable to millions.

The key issue here is a matter called statistical power. I.e. how big of an effect and at what confidence level can you see with the sample size. Is the poll big enough to see a difference between 33% and 30% at 95% confidence level? No, probably not. Is it enough to see a difference between 30% and 0%? Most definitely ... and probably at the 99.99% confidence level as well.

[KovarD]

Geek Verve, on 27 November 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

This is actually kind of hilarious. "I'll show you! You're not getting any of my money, until you do xxx!!!" If you think one or ten or even fifty people "threatening" to keep their wallets closed will force a particular feature into/out of the game....well, I would simply ask that you give Mr. Roarke and Tattoo my regards.

Well, I think hilarious someone say what I do with MY money.

They don't deserve my money for various and obvious reasons. Simple. If you don't like it, that's fine.

I'm not waiting for them split the queues. I spent refunded Project Phoenix's money on crowfunded games like Next Car Game and Mighty 9. If they split the queues: that's nice , I will give a try; If they don't, that's nice, I will enjoy other games.

Edited by KovarD, 28 November 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Zerberoff]

• Replace PGI for a Ice Cream seller
  
• Replace 1pv for Choclate flavored Icecream
  
• Replace 3pv for Pistachio flavored Icecream

Now think of a pretty sunny day in Summer, mhmm... so warm!
but what is this... look over there, the Icecream Seller....

on the left, a huge group of people, enjoying there Choclate Icecream, together with people that slurping there Pistachio Icecream, some even mixed them both!

...and on the right, a little group of people with there Choclate Icecream, its melting and runing over there Hand dropping down onto the street while they heavily scream and rage against the Iceman...

... what do they say, can you hear it? ... *walks closer*

Person 1: " HOW DARE YOU SELLING YOUR PESTACHIO?!....HERE?!? Right Next to US?!"
Person 2: " STOP selling the Pistachio Icecream immediately, or i will never come back!!!!!!!"
Person 3: " just look how ugly it looks when those people enjoy there Pistachio Icecream! You better should have spend your time in placing Sunshadows instead of creating such a horrible flavor...look, my choclate, its melting!!"
Person 4: " YOU ICEMAN`S ARE THE PURE EVIL! Here are the Numbers and Pictures that prooves it all!! " *throws in a bunch of paper*
Person 5 walks in: " Good day mister Iceman, im a Lawyer and i demand you to build a Wall here between the Choclate and the Pistachio kegs or i will charge your for 60 Phoenixdollars "


Mhmm... first i was thinking to get me an Icecream, but with this little group of rageing people infront of him
i better move on and find another one...

Edited by Zerberoff, 29 November 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Dr Herbert West]

Zerberoff, on 29 November 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

• Replace PGI for a Ice Cream seller
  
• Replace 1pv for Choclate flavored Icecream
  
• Replace 3pv for Pistachio flavored Icecream

Now think of a pretty sunny day in Summer, mhmm... so warm!
but what is this... look over there, the Icecream Seller....

on the left, a huge group of people, enjoying there Choclate Icecream, together with people that slurping there Pistachio Icecream, some even mixed them both!

This is a dumb analogy, but I'll go ahead and break down why its dumb.

Your analogy makes it sound like there is a 1PV version of MWO and a 3PV version of MWO, and that you are free to pick your version and enjoy it separatly. This is not the case. If there were segregated queues, then this would be true, and there wouldn't be threads like this. In fact, this is something that the devs promised, but went back on.

A more representitive description, using your ridiculous ice cream analogy, would be that people who wanted pistachio ice cream could come up and buy some whever they liked, while people who want chocolate have to find 11 other people who want to buy it at the same time, and then can only enjoy it if they have to find another group of 12 who also came simulataneously to buy chocolate ice cream.

Now add to this that the ice cream stand was originally chocolate only, attracted investments by advertising as a chocolate-only ice cream stand, and when they announced pistachio said that you would be still be able to buy chocolate ice cream just as easily as pistachio.

Can you see why the chocolate ice cream lovers would be justifiably angry? Do you think that the chocolate ice cream lovers will hang around or seek another ice cream stand?

Quote

...and on the right, a little group of people with there Choclate Icecream, its melting and runing over there Hand dropping down onto the street while they heavily scream and rage against the Iceman...



... what do they say, can you hear it? ... *walks closer*

Person 1: " HOW DARE YOU SELLING YOUR PESTACHIO?!....HERE?!? Right Next to US?!"
Person 2: " STOP selling the Pistachio Icecream immediately, or i will never come back!!!!!!!"
Person 3: " just look how ugly it looks when those people enjoy there Pistachio Icecream! You better should have spend your time in placing Sunshadows instead of creating such a horrible flavor...look, my choclate, its melting!!"
Person 4: " YOU ICEMAN`S ARE THE PURE EVIL! Here are the Numbers and Pictures that prooves it all!! " *throws in a bunch of paper*
Person 5 walks in: " Good day mister Iceman, im a Lawyer and i demand you to build a Wall here between the Choclate and the Pistachio kegs or i will charge your for 60 Phoenixdollars "

And this right here is a series of strawman agruments. To break it down:

Person 1: None of the 1PV crowd would have a problem with 3PV only queues or a version of 3PV that didn't affect gameplay.

Person 2: The 1PV crowd would come back happily if there were separate 1PV queues, or a version of 3PV that didn't affect gameplay.

Person 3: I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Person 4: Nobody has accused PGIGP of being "pure evil." The numbers (i.e. polls) show that PGIGP went agains the overwhelming will of the community, and that the community hasn't gotten over it. The pictures (I assume you're speaking of all the screenshot compilations back when the 3PV hatestorm happened) just proved that PGI went back on their promises and that 3PV, contrary to their assertions, provided a tactical advantage and didn't help new players.

Person 5: This is closer to the truth, as some people were considering legal action under Canada's truth in advertising laws. Still, lawyers asside, do you think its ridiculous for someone to say "you promised X, you provided Y, give me X or I take my money elsewhere"?

====

Come back when you have better analogies and less strawmen.

[Geek Verve]

KovarD, on 27 November 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Well, I think hilarious someone say what I do with MY money.

No one is doing that. You're imposing that on yourself and blaming PGI. The nerve of them, taking your money when you choose to spend it.

This is priceless.

[KovarD]

Geek Verve, on 29 November 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

No one is doing that. You're imposing that on yourself and blaming PGI. The nerve of them, taking your money when you choose to spend it.

This is priceless.

Oh... Should I feel ashamed for that? I can't ask for refund when PGI promise one thing, then change their stance and deliver other?

Is this priceless?

[Heffay]

You can ask for a refund. Just do a chargeback on your credit card.

And there are separate queues for 1PV and 3PV, so not sure where you are suggesting that there aren't, Dr West. You're essentially validating his whole analogy.

Edited by Heffay, 29 November 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[KovarD]

Heffay, on 29 November 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

You can ask for a refund. Just do a chargeback on your credit card.

And there are separate queues for 1PV and 3PV, so not sure where you are suggesting that there aren't, Dr West. You're essentially validating his whole analogy.

Just look one page back, Heffay. I got my money back and spent on Mighty 9 and Next Car Game.

There is no separate queues for PUGs.

[Heffay]

KovarD, on 29 November 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Just look one page back, Heffay. I got my money back and spent on Mighty 9 and Next Car Game.

You should get your Founders money back too. Think of how many other games you can get with that money!

[KovarD]

Heffay, on 29 November 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

[/size]

You should get your Founders money back too. Think of how many other games you can get with that money!

Wow! Black Friday on Steam now! With 120usd you can buy the whole PCGamer's Top 25 Shooters of All Time!

[Heffay]

KovarD, on 29 November 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Wow! Black Friday on Steam now! With 120usd you can buy the whole PCGamer's Top 25 Shooters of All Time!

What I read out of that is someone who won't quit MWO, as he enjoys the gameplay too much.

You still have hope, don't you? It's ok. You still have a few days to buy back your phoenix package. If you don't post for a few months, maybe no one will remember!

[KovarD]

Heffay, on 29 November 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

What I read out of that is someone who won't quit MWO, as he enjoys the gameplay too much.

You still have hope, don't you? It's ok. You still have a few days to buy back your phoenix package. If you don't post for a few months, maybe no one will remember!

It will be unfair if I ask for a charge back to the bank, because I played hundreds of hours on this game. And I will also be perma-banned. I still wanna check how this game is going.

But if PGI release UI 2.0, Community Warfare, separate the queues for PUGs, Directx11, balance the game in less than 4 days, I will buy my Phoenix Package back, Heffay. And I will give a recomendation for PGI on your name for a Community Contribuitor. I promise you!

[Dr Herbert West]

Heffay, on 29 November 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

And there are separate queues for 1PV and 3PV, so not sure where you are suggesting that there aren't, Dr West. You're essentially validating his whole analogy.

I meant to say "segregated public queues" not "segregated queues."

Of course you already knew this and are being deliberately deceptive. You and everyone who read my post knew this because the immediately following paragraphs where I addressed his ridiculous ice cream analogy said this:

Dr Herbert West, on 29 November 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

A more representitive description, using your ridiculous ice cream analogy, would be that people who wanted pistachio ice cream could come up and buy some whever they liked, while people who want chocolate have to find 11 other people who want to buy it at the same time, and then can only enjoy it if they have to find another group of 12 who also came simulataneously to buy chocolate ice cream.

Now add to this that the ice cream stand was originally chocolate only, attracted investments by advertising as a chocolate-only ice cream stand, and when they announced pistachio said that you would be still be able to buy chocolate ice cream just as easily as pistachio.

Can you see why the chocolate ice cream lovers would be justifiably angry? Do you think that the chocolate ice cream lovers will hang around or seek another ice cream stand?

You also ignored/refused to address the part of KovarD's post where he said this:

KovarD, on 29 November 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

There is no separate queues for PUGs.

This is the issue. This has ALWAYS been the issue, and your attempts at obfuscation are deliberate deception.

[Zerberoff]

Dr Herbert West, on 29 November 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Your analogy makes it sound like there is a 1PV version of MWO and a 3PV version of MWO, and that you are free to pick your version and enjoy it separatly. This is not the case. If there were segregated queues, then this would be true, and there wouldn't be threads like this. In fact, this is something that the devs promised, but went back on.

A more representitive description, using your ridiculous ice cream analogy, would be that people who wanted pistachio ice cream could come up and buy some whever they liked, while people who want chocolate have to find 11 other people who want to buy it at the same time, and then can only enjoy it if they have to find another group of 12 who also came simulataneously to buy chocolate ice cream.

Now add to this that the ice cream stand was originally chocolate only, attracted investments by advertising as a chocolate-only ice cream stand, and when they announced pistachio said that you would be still be able to buy chocolate ice cream just as easily as pistachio.

Can you see why the chocolate ice cream lovers would be justifiably angry? Do you think that the chocolate ice cream lovers will hang around or seek another ice cream stand?

I dont think my analogy is wrong, because of one simple fact.

You are not alone in this world.

See, there is a big group of people that enjoy to play this game ( there Icecream ), but they all have there own taste.
What you are mention is to seperate all who like 1pv from those that like 3pv and just like the flavor of icecream, there are ways more people enjoying 1pv then 3pv and you would doom them all to quit or atleast force them to wait longer untill a game starts.
To keep on with my analogy, you want that one guy with his PistachioIcecream to go onto the other side of the Plaza before he is alowed to enjoy his icecream and of course he needs to wait untill he found 23 more peoples he can go with.

The only legal reason why someone would remove 3pv (pistachio) is when there is no profit that comes out of it, but this isnt your neither it is my Business.

Dr Herbert West, on 29 November 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Person 3: I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.

This is for all the people whining about that PGI waste there time with coding 3pv, because THEY think it was a bad idear and should have done something else.

Edited by Zerberoff, 02 December 2013 - 12:51 AM.

[psihius]

Instead of raging like a bunch of cry babies, playing the game this long after 3PV introduced, I figured you would learn to spot and take care of those running 3PV mode with some weapon applied love. Seriously, I see that drone a 1km away easily and when I play my gaus builds, those 3PV drones give me the ability to precisely time my shots so that I shoot and hide before the enemy is even able to fire back. I'm able to hunt down those 3PV guys without much trouble (no mini-map on their part gives me the ability to sneak from behind even if I get detected by enemy sensors).
And to top it off, in last 3 to 4 weeks I NEVER saw a good player running 3PV _EVER_! The only people running 3PV where noobs in trial mech's.
People are over it. Period. If your ELO is not {Scrap}, you rarely end-up with people that run 3PV, making it a non-existent issue. Seriously, it does not affect the game at all. The game is more affected by the fact that people ignore commander orders and run the same tactic over and over and over on the maps that makes gameplay stale and even a 2-3 man force doing something off-script can make a giant difference (my personal record - our 4-man team killed 10 enemies and did 600+ damage each, topping with me in my DD-C at 1053 damage).

There are much more important and, actually, gameplay affecting problems to worry about. Like high ELO player teams are always mixed in with low ELO players and put against a medium-skilled group - that usually ends up one way: you end up 4 ppl vs anything from 6-7 to 12 enemies and due to the medium skill of those players and that they understand the game and tend to get together, they just overpower you in sheer numbers.

So, STOP wining where it does not matter and do something more constructive.

[KovarD]

Zerberoff, on 02 December 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

See, there is a big group of people that enjoy to play this game ( there Icecream ), but they all have there own taste.
What you are mention is to seperate all who like 1pv from those that like 3pv and just like the flavor of icecream, there are ways more people enjoying 1pv then 3pv and you would doom them all to quit or atleast force them to wait longer untill a game starts.
To keep on with my analogy, you want that one guy with his PistachioIcecream to go onto the other side of the Plaza before he is alowed to enjoy his icecream and of course he needs to wait untill he found 23 more peoples he can go with.

Separate queues for PUGs will fit way better to your "analogy" than force different gameplays together like 1PV only against 1PV with magical drone.

Zerberoff, on 02 December 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

This is for all the people whining about that PGI waste there time with coding 3pv, because THEY think it was a bad idear and should have done something else.

Sounds like you are saying that PGI competence is flawless and they make always the right decision.

My answer is Duke Nukem Forever multiplayer, current U.I. 2.0, current Community Warfare (not the "promised" feature), etc. Just look PGI's reputation.

Edited by KovarD, 02 December 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Dr Herbert West]

Zerberoff, on 02 December 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

See, there is a big group of people that enjoy to play this game ( there Icecream ), but they all have there own taste.
What you are mention is to seperate all who like 1pv from those that like 3pv and just like the flavor of icecream, there are ways more people enjoying 1pv then 3pv and you would doom them all to quit or atleast force them to wait longer untill a game starts.

The problem is that, given the current implementation of 3PV, people who want 1PV can not enjoy their game along with the 3PV players. Sure, I could joint the public queue and just decide not to use 3PV. However, if I don't use 3PV, I put myself at a huge disadvantage. Furthermore, the whole dynamics of the game are fundamentally changed now that players can look over/around cover. A explanation of how 3PV changes gameplay was discussed earlier.

There is a fix for this that doesn't involve splitting the queues and doesn't involve removing 3PV. The solution is to re-implement 3PV similar to the way 3PV is implemented in World of Tanks:
-Eliminate the drone
-Change 3PV so that mechs/weapon fire that are not visible in 1PV are not rendered
-Remove 3PV nerfs (e.g. low camera angle and no map

Now, players who like playing in a mode where they can see their mech have a mode that they can actually play the game in, and, because of the LoS dependent rendering of mechs, they're not affecting gameplay for those using 1PV.

Quote

This is for all the people whining about that PGI waste there time with coding 3pv, because THEY think it was a bad idear and should have done something else.

I think its a fair argument that any amount of time spent on something that >90% of the community didn't want is a waste of time as long as there are unfinished items that >90% of the community wants (e.g. Community Warfare).

[Dr Herbert West]

psihius, on 02 December 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Instead of raging like a bunch of cry babies, playing the game this long after 3PV introduced, I figured you would learn to spot and take care of those running 3PV mode with some weapon applied love. Seriously, I see that drone a 1km away easily and when I play my gaus builds, those 3PV drones give me the ability to precisely time my shots so that I shoot and hide before the enemy is even able to fire back. I'm able to hunt down those 3PV guys without much trouble (no mini-map on their part gives me the ability to sneak from behind even if I get detected by enemy sensors).

Who's raging?

As for the drone, it doesn't matter if you can see the drone. 3PV allows players to detect enemy mechs without exposing themselves to damage/radar detection and without a teammate exposing themselves to damage/radar detection. This is a completely new ability and it completely changes gameplay for the worse, no matter how its balanced. I already explained why here.

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And to top it off, in last 3 to 4 weeks I NEVER saw a good player running 3PV _EVER_! The only people running 3PV where noobs in trial mech's.

Good players flip it on to look around/over cover, and then flip it off to fight. They're probably doing it all the time, and you never see them because the drone doesn't show up as a radar blip.

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People are over it. Period. If your ELO is not {Scrap}, you rarely end-up with people that run 3PV, making it a non-existent issue. Seriously, it does not affect the game at all. The game is more affected by the fact that people ignore commander orders and run the same tactic over and over and over on the maps that makes gameplay stale and even a 2-3 man force doing something off-script can make a giant difference (my personal record - our 4-man team killed 10 enemies and did 600+ damage each, topping with me in my DD-C at 1053 damage).

One, people are not over it, and this thread is proof of it. How many more people do you think just dropped the game after 3PV and never came back?

Two, it does affect the game, even if you're not noticing it.

Three, why do you think gameplay is stale? As I pointed out in the above link, 3PV encorages trench warfare, and of course the higher level players will use it. 3PV isn't the only reason though: weapon balance is ridiculous and PGIGP's attempts to fix it with bad game mechanics (ghost heat, gauss charge) instead of tweaking damage/heat stats have failed.

Four, quoting stats from that one time when you totally had an awesome game doesn't make your arguments correct.

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There are much more important and, actually, gameplay affecting problems to worry about. Like high ELO player teams are always mixed in with low ELO players and put against a medium-skilled group - that usually ends up one way: you end up 4 ppl vs anything from 6-7 to 12 enemies and due to the medium skill of those players and that they understand the game and tend to get together, they just overpower you in sheer numbers.

The fact that there are other issues with MWO doesn't mean that 3PV isn't also an issue.

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So, STOP wining where it does not matter and do something more constructive.

Calling out PGIGP's bad design decisions, explaining why they're bad, and offering suggestions on how to fix them is constructive.

This is especially true when the design decision in question caused the largest community backlash to anything in MWO's short history.