18 replies to this topic

[Mcchuggernaut]

Ok, so I guess I had some misconceptions about ammo explosions, and I suppose this would fall under "Loadout" in this section of the forums. So...

This:

http://postimg.org/image/8mm6y21eh/

I had one ton of SRM ammo in my left arm. As you can see from the picture, My cause of death was an ammo explosion, but everything but the ammo-containing arm is intact. The damage report says my left torso, left arm, and engine were destroyed, and the order of events looks all wrong. I have recently shifted that SRM ammo to the left leg, as having it in the arm was an oversight to begin with, but still, what the hell happened? Is there something about ammo explosions I don't know, or was this a fluke bug? And no, I was not using an XL. An XL in an Atlas is pretty much suicide.

Here is an exact copy of the build I was using that game:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90f06cbfb3a06ea

I thought ammo explosions did damage to the adjacent sections of a mech, and that it was first applied to the armor of an adjacent section, then internals (unless you are using C.A.S.E.). Am I wrong, and it bypasses armor of adjacent sections entirely? This would have still destroyed my right torso because it would have taken 100 points of damage from my ammo, but my CT has 124 armor, and should have only barely been touched. WTF?

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 05 December 2013 - 04:13 AM.

[Escef]

Could it be that when you put the mech together you accidentally put the ammo in the other arm? Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes the wireframes glitch and don't update properly.

As for your build, you should also throw some ammo into the head, safest place for it. You could also swap the 2 SRM4s for a pair of Streaks and up the engine to a 350, you'd be more effective against lights, a smidgeon faster, and stuffing an extra sink into the engine increases the efficiency.

Edited by Escef, 05 December 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[Saarna]

As you can see from your screenshot, your torso armor remains intact (from the explosion that is), while both your LT and CT internals are gone. Even CASE would only contain the explosion to the sidetorso, destroying it in the process, while saving CT from damage.

EDIT: On the right/left arm ammo placement, even your exact copy build has the ammo in the left arm, so I assume that's what you meant in your post.

Escef, on 05 December 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

...and stuffing an extra sink into the engine increases the efficiency.

It doesn't actually. Only the integral heatsinks are true doubles, all sinks added manually, regardless of location are 1,4's. Easily tested in smurfy or the in-game mechlab, efficiency doesn't change a bit when moving the sinks around.

Edited by Saarna, 05 December 2013 - 02:44 AM.

[Escef]

Saarna, on 05 December 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

It doesn't actually.

That's what I thought, but Smurfy says otherwise. I tend to trust them on these things, but there's always a chance they are mistaken.

No, you're right. I was mistaking the cooler run from the Streaks.

Edited by Escef, 05 December 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Escef, on 05 December 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Could it be that when you put the mech together you accidentally put the ammo in the other arm? Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes the wireframes glitch and don't update properly.

As for your build, you should also throw some ammo into the head, safest place for it. You could also swap the 2 SRM4s for a pair of Streaks and up the engine to a 350, you'd be more effective against lights, a smidgeon faster, and stuffing an extra sink into the engine increases the efficiency.

I thought about that, but I would lose my instant, close-range surprise punch because I need a lock-on. Course they have tracking....and another heat sink and a bit more speed WOULD be nice...I'll need to experiment.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Saarna, on 05 December 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

EDIT: On the right/left arm ammo placement, even your exact copy build has the ammo in the left arm, so I assume that's what you meant in your post.

It doesn't actually. Only the integral heatsinks are true doubles, all sinks added manually, regardless of location are 1,4's. Easily tested in smurfy or the in-game mechlab, efficiency doesn't change a bit when moving the sinks around.

Yeah, may bad on calling it the right arm, I'll fix that in the post.

There is also the point that if I go up one engine size and drop a ton, the next engine up allows 4 heatsinks in the engine, which would give me space and weight for another another DHS in my build, and it would run even cooler.

[Levon K]

If you're gonna run a standard engine and place ammo in the arms or side torsos, CASE is pretty much a no-brainer.

Also, an XL in an Atlas is not suicide, it's just not optimal. Requires decent teammates and careful piloting.

[Escef]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

There is also the point that if I go up one engine size and drop a ton, the next engine up allows 4 heatsinks in the engine, which would give me space and weight for another another DHS in my build, and it would run even cooler.

Well, you'd have the same raw amount of heat dissipation, because that freed up ton goes for upping the engine. Still, I'd take a pair of Streaks over a pair of SRM4s most of the time, especially since you're running ECM anyway and can just swap modes if you have to.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Levon K, on 05 December 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

decent teammates

Lol, ever played PUGS before? Hahaha, I needed a good chuckle.

[Levon K]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Lol, ever played PUGS before? Hahaha, I needed a good chuckle.

I've never grouped a single time in my life. Usually get decent teammates.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Escef, on 05 December 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Well, you'd have the same raw amount of heat dissipation, because that freed up ton goes for upping the engine. Still, I'd take a pair of Streaks over a pair of SRM4s most of the time, especially since you're running ECM anyway and can just swap modes if you have to.

What you mean? I would have one more heat sink, so more heat dissipation. Are you saying a bigger engine would produce more heat and negate a DHS? I don't think it would, cause I ran that build with one more DHS and AMS before I added the SRMs and optimized it, and it was definitely cooler...

Edit: OH, you meant I would need two tons! I was just assuming lowering the weight of the missiles by a ton as well was understood.

Levon K, on 05 December 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

I've never grouped a single time in my life. Usually get decent teammates.

Huh. Must be high enough up the ELO that your teammates all know what they are doing or something. But down here at my level, half the team always acts like they have been eating glue for years.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 05 December 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[Levon K]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Huh. Must be high enough up the ELO that your teammates all know what they are doing or something. But down here at my level, half the team always acts like they have been eating glue for years.

This again might have something to do with the mech you're bringing to the battle.

I noticed that if I bring an assault mech, I can't carry the team as much if necessary since I've taken one of the big slots on the team.

Suppose you were to bring a lighter mech, (a Shadowhawk for example), but you were to achieve the same match score (ie. between 80 and 100). Then your team actually performs better, since that other guy that took the Atlas can now contribute more.

Also, if you were to bump up your speed (with a lighter chassis of course), you might actually be more useful since you can pick your engagements.

The game isn't about loading the most armor and heaviest weapons. If you're just leveling up your Atlas, that's cool, I did the same. But if you want to be a better pugger, take something lighter.


Edit: grammar

Edited by Levon K, 05 December 2013 - 04:27 AM.

[FireSlade]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Ok, so I guess I had some misconceptions about ammo explosions, and I suppose this would fall under "Loadout" in this section of the forums. So...

This:

http://postimg.org/image/8mm6y21eh/

I had one ton of SRM ammo in my left arm. As you can see from the picture, My cause of death was an ammo explosion, but everything but the ammo-containing arm is intact. The damage report says my left torso, left arm, and engine were destroyed, and the order of events looks all wrong. I have recently shifted that SRM ammo to the left leg, as having it in the arm was an oversight to begin with, but still, what the hell happened? Is there something about ammo explosions I don't know, or was this a fluke bug? And no, I was not using an XL. An XL in an Atlas is pretty much suicide.

Here is an exact copy of the build I was using that game:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90f06cbfb3a06ea

I thought ammo explosions did damage to the adjacent sections of a mech, and that it was first applied to the armor of an adjacent section, then internals (unless you are using C.A.S.E.). Am I wrong, and it bypasses armor of adjacent sections entirely? This would have still destroyed my right torso because it would have taken 100 points of damage from my ammo, but my CT has 124 armor, and should have only barely been touched. WTF?

What happens with an "ammo explosion" is that your ammo bin has 10 hp of life once that is gone (like when an arm is destroyed) MWO runs a check to see if it will blow. There is a 10% chance of that happening (Gauss Rifle is 90% for 20 damage but the ammo will not explode) if you are unlucky it blows. Then the game sees how much ammo is left and what type of ammo to determine the damage to you; so if you had 80 rounds left for your SRMs that means that it would do 80 * 2 = 160 damage. That damage is applied to the remaining area until it is destroyed then it moves in a path towards the CT. Since it looks like the armor was ignored, it only takes half the total armor value to destroy the internals of a section so for an Atlas the ST needs 42 damage to destroy the internal structure and the CT needs 62 damage. This all means that you had at least 52 SRM rounds left for it to have killed you. Now if you had CASE on then the damage would have stopped at the ST but you still would have lost the ST (this is why CASE on XLs is pointless). I would put your SRM ammo in your head section since that rarely gets taken out and move most of your AC20 ammo towards the CT to increase your odds of surviving. Better to have ammo in the most heavily armored place and use it up before you lose the armor there. Also for future reference ammo gets used up in this order (Head > CT > Right ST > Left ST > Right Arm > Left Arm > Right Leg > Left Leg) so you can use that to plan around ammo usage and survivability.

[Bilbo]

FireSlade, on 05 December 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

What happens with an "ammo explosion" is that your ammo bin has 10 hp of life once that is gone (like when an arm is destroyed) MWO runs a check to see if it will blow. There is a 10% chance of that happening (Gauss Rifle is 90% for 20 damage but the ammo will not explode) if you are unlucky it blows. Then the game sees how much ammo is left and what type of ammo to determine the damage to you; so if you had 80 rounds left for your SRMs that means that it would do 80 * 2 = 160 damage. That damage is applied to the remaining area until it is destroyed then it moves in a path towards the CT. Since it looks like the armor was ignored, it only takes half the total armor value to destroy the internals of a section so for an Atlas the ST needs 42 damage to destroy the internal structure and the CT needs 62 damage. This all means that you had at least 52 SRM rounds left for it to have killed you. Now if you had CASE on then the damage would have stopped at the ST but you still would have lost the ST (this is why CASE on XLs is pointless). I would put your SRM ammo in your head section since that rarely gets taken out and move most of your AC20 ammo towards the CT to increase your odds of surviving. Better to have ammo in the most heavily armored place and use it up before you lose the armor there. Also for future reference ammo gets used up in this order (Head > CT > Right ST > Left ST > Right Arm > Left Arm > Right Leg > Left Leg) so you can use that to plan around ammo usage and survivability.

The AC/20 ammo is fine where it is. The SRM ammo definitely needs to move to the head or leg.

[Deathlike]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Ok, so I guess I had some misconceptions about ammo explosions, and I suppose this would fall under "Loadout" in this section of the forums. So...

This:

http://postimg.org/image/8mm6y21eh/

I had one ton of SRM ammo in my left arm. As you can see from the picture, My cause of death was an ammo explosion, but everything but the ammo-containing arm is intact. The damage report says my left torso, left arm, and engine were destroyed, and the order of events looks all wrong. I have recently shifted that SRM ammo to the left leg, as having it in the arm was an oversight to begin with, but still, what the hell happened? Is there something about ammo explosions I don't know, or was this a fluke bug? And no, I was not using an XL. An XL in an Atlas is pretty much suicide.

Here is an exact copy of the build I was using that game:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90f06cbfb3a06ea

I thought ammo explosions did damage to the adjacent sections of a mech, and that it was first applied to the armor of an adjacent section, then internals (unless you are using C.A.S.E.). Am I wrong, and it bypasses armor of adjacent sections entirely? This would have still destroyed my right torso because it would have taken 100 points of damage from my ammo, but my CT has 124 armor, and should have only barely been touched. WTF?

I hate to tell you this, but the ammo explosion related death is working as intended™.

Once the arm that contains the ammo is "lit" (it explodes, due to the 10% chance that the RNG decides to not favor you at that moment), the damage transfers are dealt to INTERNAL sections.

Do you see the external armor that seems to be left untouched? That's the armor that to set up in the mechlab. The INTERNAL armor is the inner sections, which you have no control over but are also defined as 1/2 of the max possible armor TOTAL in that section.

For instance, you can put a TOTAL of 84 points of armor in the side torsos. That means INTERNALLY, you have 42 points of armor. The CT has 124 pts of armor that can be assigned to. That means INTERNALLY, it has 62 points of armor.

The SRM explosion itself can deal 1.5 damage per missile, assuming you have all your ammo intact (100 missiles), the explosion itself can deal 150 pts of damage (1.5 * 100).

Essentially, unused SRM ammo is effectively fatal to you (42+62 =104 < 150). That is intended.

To avoid this, you need to place it better, or consume it quicker. People have already advised putting it in the head or the legs although, your legs are badly armored. My suggestion is to dumb down the engine to a 340 or 335 standard and use that armor to increase the leg+arm armor (primarily leg) so that it will reduce the chance of death by ammo explosion through legging. ALSO, the quicker fix is the move the SRM ammo into the leg, and move one ton of the AC20 ammo into that arm. Since ammo priorities will goto the arm first before hitting the legs (the right leg is the LAST to consume ammo, making your build terrible if someone decides to leg the right side), it's best to make it "go away" from the arm first.

Here's how it would look:
AS7-D-DC

Hopefully this is helpful to you.

Also, ammo explosion damage #s can be found @ smurfy's mechlab.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

Edited by Deathlike, 05 December 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[sC4r]

http://mwo.gamepedia...ment_%28CASE%29

here is explaination for ammo explosion

[Bilbo]

Holy {Scrap}....I didn't pay any attention to the leg armor. Definitely stick the SRM ammo in the head. Better yet.....Use a smaller engine and put some armor on the mech.

[FireSlade]

Bilbo, on 05 December 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

The AC/20 ammo is fine where it is. The SRM ammo definitely needs to move to the head or leg.

The armor is really low in the legs and in my matches most people are aiming for assault's legs for many reasons:

• This is the area that people will first strip armor on to free up some tons.
  
• When they go, so does the ammo since everyone puts ammo there. Less ammo means they can hurt you less.
  
• You turn something big from being semi mobile to being a turret. It becomes very easy to stay behind him/her picking away at their backs even in an assault mech.
  
• There is always that chance that the ammo will cook off turning a hard kill into an easy kill.

These reasons are why it is a good idea not to follow what everyone else does and put the ammo in the CT where there is more armor to protect you from an ammo explosion. Besides, how much longer are you going to live with no armor on the CT anyways?

[Bilbo]

They continue to fire at legs because upon hitting them, accidentally or on purpose, they see they are weak. Put a reasonable amount of armor on them and you won't see the issue as much. You won't notice the difference in speed or twist if you fully armor it and drop the engine size a little. The legs are a great place to remove some armor for a little weight. Not half of it. I can count on one hand the number of times my Atlai have been legged. I never go much below 70 armor on them though.