408 replies to this topic

[krolmir]

Aiming and Convergence are not problems, being able to do 3 to 4 alphas in a row is what makes them a problem..... If you want to play an FPS with one big hit box, because you have no gunnery skills, please play World of Tanks or something.....

[Zyllos]

Roadbeer, on 12 November 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Wasn't this the reason that armor was doubled over TT values in the first place?

Said it before, I'll say it again. TT does NOT translate well into a 3D Real Time environment, ever.

Everyone, please STOP with the TT analogs.

Then why are we using a TT mechanic (armor point and hit system) in a real time game? Because this game is based on the TT game, then modified to work in the real time.

The issue is that PGI has mismatched the armor system with the aiming system. The armor system is assuming that players will spread out their damage when firing at targets. But we all know that this is a huge negative for taking out targets, thus the weapons that come out on top have the ability for high accuracy, which is a symptom of the overall problem, pin point convergence.

So, we have to go back to the TT to see that either a completely new system has to be developed for armor with this new rule of allowing pin point convergence or add mechanics to spread out weapons damage, equally, across all weapons.

Joseph Mallan, on 12 November 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

except I don't wanna see everything conform to DpS. I love the up front damage of our ACs.

I also agree. Everything doesn't need to be about DPS. There needs to be large, up front damage weapons. Like the AC/10, AC/20, Gauss Rifle, and PPCs, that actually have overall low DPS for their weight and type but high up front damage.

But they should still be spreading the damage out in some form or fashion for balance with our current armor systems.

krolmir, on 13 November 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Aiming and Convergence are not problems, being able to do 3 to 4 alphas in a row is what makes them a problem..... If you want to play an FPS with one big hit box, because you have no gunnery skills, please play World of Tanks or something.....

If you allow any type of convergence, it doesn't change the outcome of the game in the end if you allow 0.1 alphas or 100 alphas. The end result will still be only single sections being taken off, thus eliminates the reason to even have hit locations.

It would be fine with single weapons to have this type of accuracy, but multiple weapons should be almost impossible to get them to land on the same spot when fired in any relatively short time period.

That is why I support Homeless Bill's idea of a high dissipation value that controls the amount of damage, based on balancing factors ranging from movement to previously fired weapons to equipped items, that can be fired with high accuracy.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Edited by Zyllos, 13 November 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zyllos, on 13 November 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Then why are we using a TT mechanic (armor point and hit system) in a real time game? Because this game is based on the TT game, then modified to work in the real time.

The issue is that PGI has mismatched the armor system with the aiming system. The armor system is assuming that players will spread out their damage when firing at targets. But we all know that this is a huge negative for taking out targets, thus the weapons that come out on top have the ability for high accuracy, which is a symptom of the overall problem, pin point convergence.

So, we have to go back to the TT to see that either a completely new system has to be developed for armor with this new rule of allowing pin point convergence or add mechanics to spread out weapons damage, equally, across all weapons.



I also agree. Everything doesn't need to be about DPS. There needs to be large, up front damage weapons. Like the AC/10, AC/20, Gauss Rifle, and PPCs, that actually have overall low DPS for their weight and type but high up front damage.

But they should still be spreading the damage out in some form or fashion for balance with our current armor systems.

If you allow any type of convergence, it doesn't change the outcome of the game in the end if you allow 0.1 alphas or 100 alphas. The end result will still be only single sections being taken off, thus eliminates the reason to even have hit locations.

It would be fine with single weapons to have this type of accuracy, but multiple weapons should be almost impossible to get them to land on the same spot when fired in any relatively short time period.

Agreed. I am against how our weapons converge too.

Since the other AC thread has closed I will transfer my point from there to here.

PPC 9.4 damage per hit 45% accuracy (18.8 damage in 10 seconds...20 heat)
AC10 9.6 damage per hit 57% Accuracy(38.4 damage in 10 seconds...12 heat)
Slightly more damage per hit, a fair amount more accurate, MUCH cooler...

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 November 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[kapusta11]

The amount of "I was killed by AC so here I am whining about it" "AC is OP" topics is disturbing. I fear that if PGI continue to listen people who know nothing about how the game works, it may turn into complete garbage.

[Wolfways]

kapusta11, on 13 November 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

The amount of "I was killed by AC so here I am whining about it" "AC is OP" topics is disturbing. I fear that if PGI continue to listen people who know nothing about how the game works, it may turn into complete garbage.

I'm the one using AC's, and they are OP (which is why i'm using them, at least when i need C-Bills).
Maybe if you explain to me "how the game works" i can try really hard to get less kills and not do the most damage and get the highest match score in nearly every match.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wolfways, on 13 November 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I'm the one using AC's, and they are OP (which is why i'm using them, at least when i need C-Bills).
Maybe if you explain to me "how the game works" i can try really hard to get less kills and not do the most damage and get the highest match score in nearly every match.

You are looking at it backwards. ACs are not OP. Everything else is UP.

[mike29tw]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

You are looking at it backwards. ACs are not OP. Everything else is UP.

General consensus among the forum is that TTK is too short right now. Nerfing the most powerful weapon is a good start to improve it, rather than buffing the rest.

[Wolfways]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

You are looking at it backwards. ACs are not OP. Everything else is UP.

But if you look at it upside down AC's are Ob
Either way weapons aren't balanced.

[krolmir]

If a mech can only alpha once without shutdown, to sustain fire must switch to chain fire, or always chain fire; how exactly will there be a problem with convergence and pin-point accuracy? The fact that I can chose how to disable my enemy to my advantage, is one of MechWarrior's signature features, introducing a CoF aiming reticule like world of tanks negates this entirely. We might as well have mechs with one giant hit box, and hit points based on tonnage. Which spits in the face of every MechWarrior title every made. This will also cause light and medium mech to become overpowered, as they could stop, shrink the cone, fire and take off before heavier mechs could even get on target. This would also take is back to a sniper only meta builds on heavier mech chassis.

Lastly, this thread is about balancing energy weapons so that energy/missile only chassis can be viable against ballistics. If you wanna debate about CoF and pinpoint, by all means make your own thread and do so.........

[Inappropriate0780131]

What do the damage values from BT have to do with MWO? This is a first person shooter, not a table top game...

[Wolfways]

Inappropriate0780131, on 13 November 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

What do the damage values from BT have to do with MWO? This is a first person shooter, not a table top game...

PGI used them.

[Karl Streiger]

krolmir, on 13 November 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Aiming and Convergence are not problems, being able to do 3 to 4 alphas in a row is what makes them a problem..... If you want to play an FPS with one big hit box, because you have no gunnery skills, please play World of Tanks or something.....

Well that is an outstanding example for trolling or posting things that are not true. Decide on your own.

The Convergence issue is an problem simple because the used armor values are based on an other system (to make it simple)

WoT didn't have a single armor location -> quite the opposite -> the system was more detailed. The only thing you had was a single HP bar. But you was capable of killing components / crew members / engine etc. based on where you aim. Not the random stuff of MWO (i shoot at the LRM of an Atlas and knock out the SRM)
THe armor had several thicknesses

Spoiler

What people like your skillfullness doesn'T seem to understand:

MWO would be much more challenging - when all weapons will got a dispersion (not a cone - because this dispersion must be linked to that specified weapon in that mech)
Maybe you can "re callibrate them from time to time"

Next to that those weapons have to need a convergence time -> even the torso weapons use "mini" muscles to direct the weapons.

Next to that convergence time -> its unlikely that 100% could ever be achieved so to have a solid "forecast" its better to use fixed convergences -> even when that mean that you have to aim for the left arm to hit its CT.

If a Mech has multiple armored locations with internals that have a physical place rather than a random applied critical hit -> you have to aim more carefully -> reduce the pace of combat (not even 5 seconds as the longest reload is stupid fast)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 November 2013 - 12:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wolfways, on 13 November 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

But if you look at it upside down AC's are Ob
Either way weapons aren't balanced.

No sir! Upside down OP becomes dO Which means they are fine(They will dO). I stand by my quoted post sir.

[Joseph Mallan]

mike29tw, on 13 November 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

General consensus among the forum is that TTK is too short right now. Nerfing the most powerful weapon is a good start to improve it, rather than buffing the rest.

The general consensus can take a seat. I am not here to hold hands with people I wanna kill. I want my opponent dead in 10 seconds or less. And Yes, that means I am expecting to die in 10 seconds or less if I screw up! Mechs have enough fire power to level a city, the are the gods of War. Gods can kill gods. Some of them can do it with ease.

[mike29tw]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Mechs have enough fire power to level a city,

Well last time a tried to level a city in my mech I ran out of ammo before I managed to inflict any scratch...

So comparing mech TTK with city TTK, I think 20 sec mech TTK is still acceptable.

Edited by mike29tw, 14 November 2013 - 04:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

mike29tw, on 14 November 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Well last time a tried to level a city in my mech I ran out of ammo before I managed to inflict any scratch...

First I just wanna say...

Quote

So comparing mech TTK with city TTK, I think 20 sec mech TTK is still acceptable.

In this case, the saying YMMV is appropriate. From My Atlas(53 point Alpha) I should be able to Kill a Light in 2-3 Alphas (5+ seconds) A Medium in 4-5 Alphas (15+ seconds) Heavies and Assaults 4-6 Alphas (25+ seconds).

And Yes, I am an Alpha Warrior. I have been for as long as I have played TT AND the MWTitles.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 November 2013 - 05:13 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

From My Atlas(53 point Alpha) I should be able to Kill a Light in 2-3 Alphas (5+ seconds)

Only if your Mech systems work properly and you are able to hit them. Its no secret that you need on the average more shots of any weapon to kill a fast Jenner as you would need for a better armored Atlas

[Khobai]

Quote

The general consensus can take a seat. I am not here to hold hands with people I wanna kill. I want my opponent dead in 10 seconds or less. And Yes, that means I am expecting to die in 10 seconds or less if I screw up! Mechs have enough fire power to level a city, the are the gods of War. Gods can kill gods. Some of them can do it with ease.

And thats your opinion. But in tabletop it takes way more than 10 seconds (one round) to kill an assault mech unless youre using overpowered clan tech, but that doesnt apply to MWO.

Even PGI themselves have said TTK is too short and that theyre considering increasing the internal structure of mechs to both increase TTK and make critical hits matter more.

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 14 November 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

And thats your opinion. But in tabletop it takes more than 10 seconds (one round) to kill an enemy mech unless youre using overpowered clan tech, but that doesnt apply to MWO.

Even PGI themselves have said TTK is too short and that theyre considering increasing the internal structure of mechs to both increase TTK and make critical hits matter more.

TT Canon designs.
A Hunchback can kill any light mech with a single AC20 hit! An Archer (40 LRMs) CAN kill some Mediums in one salvo A Jager can die to a Victor in 2 turns easy, Quickdraw as well could die to a single AC20 hit CT. A Canon Catapult took structure damage in the Side torsos from a single AC20. an ammo is a possible(25% chance) hit if a crit is rolled. The Thunderbolt is the first stock build I found that could not be dropped by a single AC20 shell. Most of the Mechs we have in MW:O are insta-kill targets able to be taken out in one turn.

The only opinion that matters is the DEVs, and I disagree with them as well. Many of the choices of Chassis are just really bad Designs But it is their game if they choose to change it, that is their decision. But I will argue against it respectfully most of the time.

Karl Streiger, on 14 November 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Only if your Mech systems work properly and you are able to hit them. Its no secret that you need on the average more shots of any weapon to kill a fast Jenner as you would need for a better armored Atlas

This is a fair disclaimer Karl.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 November 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[Wolfways]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

No sir! Upside down OP becomes dO Which means they are fine(They will dO). I stand by my quoted post sir.

Ah i see the problem now. You're looking at a mirror image of weapon balance.
I suggest you turn your monitor around. Things will look quite different