96 replies to this topic

[NRP]

It doesn't matter in the end anyway, because I usually only keep one, possibly two variants after I've basic'd/elited/mastered the chassis. All those mechs that you worry will be made obsolete, will in reality be made obsolete anyway - hell, how many Catapults do you see in action these days, compared to a year ago? Personally, I'd like to have a "best in class" version as the one I keep when I'm done with all the rest, and it would be nice if that version had a C-Bill bonus.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Kyynele, on 04 November 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

4E + 2B + 2AMS + 3 modules + JJs in a hero Catapult would completely and utterly obsolete the K2. There'd be nothing that the K2 could do that the hero couldn't. It would just be a bad variant for the people who don't spend real money. This is what I would call serious P2W. Also, it would be awful game design. I would also like to point out that I have all the hero mechs except for Fang in the game, so this isn't about me whining about how unfair it is having to spend money for good stuff. I'm trying to point out why the aforementioned suggestion is bad design, and why it won't happen.

Not true necessarily. I was thinking a Catapult C1 torso with ballistic arms (4 Energy 2 Ballistic).

A Catapult K2 has 6 unrestricted hardpoints. What I mean by that is every harpoint can mount the biggest to the smallest weapon of it's class. A Hero Cat like I was reffering to has a C1 toros. That means 2 of the 4 energry points are VERY restricted. If you aren't familiar with the C1, 2 energy harpoints are CT mounted. This means if you want to use both CT hardpoints, you can't go bigger than 2 MPLasers. If you use 1 of the 2, you can only mount a 1LPLaser and any form of PPC is completely impossible.

So, a Cat Hero couldn't mount 4LLasers like a K2 and couldn't mount 3PPCs as a Cat K2 (despite it being a rather poor build).

If you still feel that would be unfair, I wouldn't have a problem with the arms being a bit too small to mount an A/C20 (A/C10 and smaller). Even if it could mount dual Gauss, the gauss is fragile and is vulnerable in arms with a lot less armor than a torso.

I think that is enough of an offset to give us JJs and not be P2W. It would still be a good mech, a ballistic variant which we don't have in a Cat (even K2 was more energy based), and it would not have dual A/C20 or 4 LLaser possible, but would have JJs and a more ideal position for ballistics.

I think that would be fair.

[Otto Cannon]

Jumpjets and 355 engine cap- looks like I'm getting a new mech!

[CDLord HHGD]

Bought mine!

[627]

show us! with fancy new colors!

[-Natural Selection-]

Prediction for JESTER builds.

[One Medic Army]

Dozier, on 05 November 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Prediction for JESTER builds.

Naw, mine are going to use at least a 325 if not a 350xl.
Speed is life.

I'll be getting one as soon as I get home this evening, and trying it out.

[TB Freelancer]

With pure energy builds currently at such a massive disadvantage to other builds and the bad torso twist, I just don't see anything of value in the mech....

....maybe after a few more rounds of the balance whack-a-mole game PGI is playing.

[Praehotec8]

One Medic Army, on 05 November 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Naw, mine are going to use at least a 325 if not a 350xl.
Speed is life.

I'll be getting one as soon as I get home this evening, and trying it out.

The problem, at least in my mind, is that unless you're going well over 100kph, speed really ISN'T life. Even going 97 kph, it takes too long to escape from a bad situation against anything except an atlas. Combine that with the high heat requirements and low ability to concentrate damage for extended periods (you really have the same effective firepower as a jenner at best with less speed and JJs), and the Jester isn't much more exciting than a regular K2 that uses PPCs. Plus, they nerfed (and mangled the appearance) the other catapults with the weapon graphic changes. It's a sad day for cat-lovers.

[Kyynele]

MeiSooHaityu, on 05 November 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

-- stuff --

I didn't really have any issue with that. My only issue was with people insisting they should get their K2 builds into a mech that would be the same but with more stuff, which didn't make any sense. I personally would've preferred ballistics or even missiles, perhaps 4 ballistics and 2 energy, which imo would've been tons better than the K2, but would still have left K2 a niche of it's own for what's it worth.

Anyway, I was tired and expressed myself poorly.

->


I bought a Jester, initially loaded it up with 355XL, 2x ERLL and 4x ML, JJs, 2x AMS. Very mediocre if not plain underwhelming results. For the last 2 matches I played, I switched down to 330XL and changed the ERLLs to PPCs. Have to play some more to judge properly but it felt like a clear improvement, PPCs just go much better with JJs.

edit - and I am saddened my beloved A1 looks so awful now.

Edited by Kyynele, 05 November 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Praehotec8, on 05 November 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

The problem, at least in my mind, is that unless you're going well over 100kph, speed really ISN'T life. Even going 97 kph, it takes too long to escape from a bad situation against anything except an atlas. Combine that with the high heat requirements and low ability to concentrate damage for extended periods (you really have the same effective firepower as a jenner at best with less speed and JJs), and the Jester isn't much more exciting than a regular K2 that uses PPCs. Plus, they nerfed (and mangled the appearance) the other catapults with the weapon graphic changes. It's a sad day for cat-lovers.

Well, the way I see it, a big engine gives more space for DHS, and with DHS you're typically more crunched on space than tonnage. I can fit a pair of ERLLs, 4 MLs, 21DHS, and 2JJs with a 350xl into the Jester on Smurfy for instance.
Going to a smaller engine gives more tonnage, but without ditching endo there isn't enough space to use said extra tonnage.

[Otto Cannon]

One Medic Army, on 05 November 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Well, the way I see it, a big engine gives more space for DHS, and with DHS you're typically more crunched on space than tonnage. I can fit a pair of ERLLs, 4 MLs, 21DHS, and 2JJs with a 350xl into the Jester on Smurfy for instance.
Going to a smaller engine gives more tonnage, but without ditching endo there isn't enough space to use said extra tonnage.

The XL330 works too, but it's the smallest I'd go personally. I use it when I want PPCs or LPL on the build.

[Donald J Trump Kerensky]

I love my Coral Snake / raptor hybrid thingy!

[Urdasein]

no balistic, no buy.

nuff said

And by balistic point, i mean: not this joke to put 3 points on a single arm with a hand(job) actuator.

The jester could be awesome with JJ and 2 bal points on the high mounted arms...

But 6 energy....... MEH !

Edited by loupgaroupoilu, 05 November 2013 - 10:27 PM.

[Amsro]

Nevermind the Jester, the Missile Catapults have been trolled!!... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

GG PGI you've truly outdone yourself this time.

[Praehotec8]

One Medic Army, on 05 November 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Well, the way I see it, a big engine gives more space for DHS, and with DHS you're typically more crunched on space than tonnage. I can fit a pair of ERLLs, 4 MLs, 21DHS, and 2JJs with a 350xl into the Jester on Smurfy for instance.
Going to a smaller engine gives more tonnage, but without ditching endo there isn't enough space to use said extra tonnage.

You raise a valid point, one that is not the same as, "speed is life." There is definitely a tradeoff between engine heat sink capacity and tonnage, no question. The additional speed makes you a bit better at hit and run, but only very cautiously, and you had still better hope you don't get focused on by more than one mech during a hit-and-run, because you are still too big and slow to get away from most mechs (before being seriously injured).

In Smurfy, you can throw together a JR7-F with 6 ML that has 14 DHS, 3 JJs, runs 140 kph, and is much smaller than the jester - yet it does only 8 less damage per alpha than your loadout (and I'm not even good at building light mechs). Sure, your build has higher heat efficiency, but a mech like the jester really isn't tough enough to stand up in a brawl, and is best suited for some type of fire-support or hit-and-run tactics.

Basically, I'm saying that the Jester is too vulnerable to brawl, too slow to use speed as armor, and has too few weapons which are all severely heat dependant. It's basically left functioning the same as a K-2, which is indirect fire support/sniping. It's very underwhelming. At least it looks nice.

Perhaps you can use the speed better than me. I find that I am much better at brawling, or with LRMs than either harassing, or sniping. I often feel like I have a big arrow on me that whenever I expose myself all eyes turn to me regardless of what everyone was doing before. If there are 5 mechs in a bunch, I'm the one targetted...do I have a complex or what? =P

For me, I tend to run heavier on weapons, less heat efficient, and stagger fire once heat builds up until I can cool down again. My current build is:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bf4a1abf520b1d7

I find it more useful to stay at 200-500m range and then back off to cool down while brawlers engage. If I get into a brawl with the Jester, I generally find I'm dead before heat becomes too much of a problem (or have done enough damage to kill/drive off the enemy). In my experience, trying to run away in anything going slower than 120kph generally ends in me either dying or having a badly damaged rear torso. I tried almost the same build you have, but it just felt even more anemic than the loadout I have now (and yes, I could change the 2 LPL to LLs and increase engine size, but I like LPLs).

[One Medic Army]

Speed on a non-light isn't about running away.

It's about breaking line-of-sight and repositioning before you're in a position you'd need to run away from, with the added feature of being able to turn+twist fast enough to track much faster.

My current best mech is a victor with a 350 engine, going ~71kph (no speed tweak yet), and let's just say my 350xl engine gets quite a bit of usage across all my mechs. If my Jenner could fit larger than a 300 I'd bump the engine up there too and drop to small lasers.

Edited by One Medic Army, 06 November 2013 - 10:01 AM.