100 replies to this topic

[Stormwolf]

There are a lot of misconceptions about Clans and how they work. Some people have a hatred for the Clans while others aren't all that knowledgeable about them.

So I'll take this chance to explain how Clans work and how it could translate into gameplay.

First we start with a couple gripes that people have with the Clans:

Clan mechs are more powerful then IS mechs, this is unfair:
True, Clan mechs are more powerful, this is offset by the fact that we are supposed to fight by honorrules. We can't team up to take down one single mech. Each Clan warrior has to select one opponent to fight and none of his starmates can help him in the battle. For this reason it is important that the IS players are in greater numbers, it gives them a better chance at taking down Clan mechs. This is also good for the Clan side, since they can claim multiple defeated/killed enemies.

But don't worry, the IS will have far better shots at defeating Clan mechs once "level 2" tech is being distributed.

I'm afraid that many players will join the Clans if they are available
This would be likely, but we have to hammer in Zellbrigen early on. A lot of unfamiliar players will think twice about joining the Clans once they hear about the restrictions of zell. And even then, there's a ton of Clan players around to potentially weed out the dezgra players. I'm certainly hoping for trials of annihilation in this game. The multitude of threads already circulating will have caught the attention of the devs by now, don't worry, I'm sure they're already working on it.

How does Clan honor work?
Easy, every fight is a duel, you can challenge a enemy warrior for a 1 on 1 fight, among the Clans this is the most honorable type of fight. Against IS warriors it would be possible to challenge multiple opponents since they have weaker mechs. BV balancing would work here, just look at the following setup:

1 Timber Wolf A has a BV of 2854, this a pretty high rating. Most high end IS machines don't bolster this type of rating. So multiple opponents are in order.
A IS force could consist of the following:
- Warhammer WWHM-7S BV: 1477
- Centurion CN9-D BV: 1130
- Commando COM-5S BV: 557

All these mechs would have a combined BV rating of 3164 which is a bit higher then what the Timber Wolf has. But this isn't a problem, it would be honorable if a Clan warrior took out all three of those mechs. In addition to that they will be able to attack the Timber Wolf from multiple directions at the same time whereas the Timber Wolf pilot can only focus on one opponent. The IS holds a advantage here if the players are smart enought to work together.

Clan honor is usually divided into the following levels:
Level 1: You attack one opponent and only keep attacking that opponent even if a third party is firing upon you. This level is usually only used when Clans fight each other, you would lose face as a warrior if one of your starmates has to help you. It is possible to play at this level if you're smart.

Level 2: You challenge a enemy but somebody interferes, it is now allowed for you to fight that 3rd party. But it isn't allowed for you to fight any mechs that weren't part of the challenge.

Level 3: The fight immediatly devolves into a free for all once somebody breaks the rules of Zellbrigen. This could be particularly bad for the IS side.

Level 4: No rules apply. This level normally shouldn't be a option. The only faction to deserve this would be Word of Blake after they started dropping nukes. Though a exception could be made for a trail of Annihilation.

Clan warriors would rather die then give up their honor. So a honorable death is the ideal way for a Clan warrior to go out. Fighting to win no matter what is not the Clan way, you are simply not good enough if you need to cheat.


What are these trials I have been hearing about?
Trials are the Clans way of fighting while cutting back on the damage inflicted. There are numerous trials for various functions. There's a bit more to trials then I'm explaining here, but here's the rundown:

Trial of Possession:
A rather common trial the attacking party approaches the opposing party to fight over something they have. This can range from entire planets down to somebody's toenail clipper. The challenged party may ask the attacking party for something atleast equally in value if they lose (note that this must be done before the battle).

Trial of Grievance:
Not everybody gets along, this trial allows you challenge anybody you don't like. IS players won't be expecting this as much as Clan players do. Quite often trials of Grievance will be fought within the same Clan, so don't think that you can pull stupid stunts that will anger players in your own faction.

Trial of Position
Every Clan warrior needs this trial to earn atleast warrior status. Usually this battle starts with two cadets fighting six opponents. Each cadet has three warriors assigned for him/her to fight. Defeating one opponent will secure the rank of mechwarrior and the right to pilot a mech. Two opponents will grant the rank of Star Commander, position where you can command a star (4 mechs + your own). Three defeated opponents will unlock the rank of Star Captain (command up to 14 mechs + your own).

Normally the trial would end here, but a free-for-all could erupt during the trial, it would be possible to get ranks beyond Star Captain if this happend. Many warriors use this to gain the rank of Star Colonel.

Being in a Clan and simply fighting in battles often isn't enough to get higher rank. You in some cases would need to trial to gain a higher rank. Failing here could get you demoted out of the warrior caste, so don't grow complacent.

Trial of Bloodright
This is a important one, this trial will ensure that your genes are used in the generation of warriors. It essentially a tournament of 32 warriors who duke it out to see who gets to earn a Bloodname. Clan Warriors don't have last names, this trial will open the possibility to gain the last name of one of the original Clan founders. Only 25 active warriors withing each Clan can hold a single bloodname, you can only get a bloodname if one of the 25 dies. Each Clan started out with 40 bloodnamed warriors, so that's usually around 1000 bloodnames per Clan. Only bloodname warriors can gain higher ranks like Galaxy Commander or Khan.

Trial of Refusal
You won't always agree with decisions within your Clan. This is the Clan equivalent of veto, only with violence instead of boring speeches.

Trial of Annihilation
This is a trial to eliminate things that don't really belong among the Clans, this can range from a single warrior to a entire Clan. It's not so much a trial as it is a manhunt.

There are a few other trials, but the ones above are the most relevant for 3050.


So, I will get Clan tech if I pass my Trial of Position, right?
Yes, but don't for a second think that you can abuse the tech the second you get it. We will know when you are only fighting weaker mechs and backstabbing others that are already fighting a different opponent. In the most extreme cases we would like to execute a Trial of Annihilation within the game if the Devs are kind enough to implement it. Having Clan tech is one thing, using it wisely is another.


That is all for now, any questions so far?

[CozmikR5]

I could not have explained it better

[LordKelvin]

I believe one of the big problems that everybody is anticipating is that, if somebody who is not part of the Clans (i.e., is not bound by Zellbrigen) somehow obtains access to Clan technology (either through purchase, or salvage, or however it is that you'll get it in the game), then there is nothing stopping that player from mopping the floor with everybody else. Sure, you could put massive cost penalties to obtaining and/or maintaining Clan technology, but at the tactical level, there's no real way for someone who doesn't have Clan technology to beat someone who does, given equal skill and tonnage.

Of course, I anticipate how they're going to implement the Clans no matter what, I'm keeping an open mind for everything.

Edited by LordKelvin, 12 November 2011 - 05:42 PM.

[Stormwolf]

CozmikR5, on 12 November 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

I could not have explained it better

Thanks

LordKelvin, on 12 November 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

I believe one of the big problems that everybody is anticipating is that, if somebody who does not part of the Clans (i.e., is not bound by Zellbrigen) somehow obtains access to Clan technology (either through purchase, or salvage, or however it is that you'll get it in the game), then there is nothing stopping that player from mopping the floor with everybody else. Sure, you could put massive cost penalties to obtaining and/or maintaining Clan technology, but at the tactical level, there's no real way for someone who doesn't have Clan technology to beat someone who does, given equal skill and tonnage.

Of course, I anticipate how they're going to implement the Clans no matter what, I'm keeping an open mind for everything.

Salvage won't be getting you all that far if you can't get replacement parts. Purchasing Clan mechs would be extremely rare on IS market since only few warriors would be willing to part with any and all Clan tech.

The main Clan tech production would remain among the Clans, its use would be monitored by the players who are more familiar with the inner workings of Clan life. This shouldn't be too hard since there's a ton of us around. Trials would be in order if players aren't being all that honorable.

[Amechwarrior]

LordKelvin, on 12 November 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

I believe one of the big problems that everybody is anticipating is that, if somebody who does not part of the Clans (i.e., is not bound by Zellbrigen) somehow obtains access to Clan technology (either through purchase, or salvage, or however it is that you'll get it in the game), then there is nothing stopping that player from mopping the floor with everybody else. Sure, you could put massive cost penalties to obtaining and/or maintaining Clan technology, but at the tactical level, there's no real way for someone who doesn't have Clan technology to beat someone who does, given equal skill and tonnage.

Of course, I anticipate how they're going to implement the Clans no matter what, I'm keeping an open mind for everything.

This is a good point to consider. Imagine 4 new/casual players in pick up groups getting dropped against a 4 person team of Clanned out 'mechs. Maybe like others have said, if the clan weapon gets destroyed it is gone for good, no repairs, no chance of salvage. We really do not anything about how the game will work. We can only see that the developers consciously changed the time frame from 3015 to 3049, they knew what they were getting into and I expect they will have it all figured out by the time the Clans roll in.

[Kudzu]

If there's a good bv-rated matchmaking system involved it's not an issue at all. Most of the complaints seem to center around "well one on one IS can't handle clan"... which is true but it leaves out the part where the fights should not be one on one since the IS should have more people focusing on fewer targets. If clan tech is allowed to be used on IS designs the same thing occurs-- the BV increases and it all evens out.

Think of the clans as the 300 Spartans-- they kicked a lot of **** but were eventually killed by superior numbers.

[Grayson Pryde]

Well done warrior. Awarded a "like this"

[Stormwolf]

Kudzu, on 12 November 2011 - 05:35 PM, said:

Think of the clans as the 300 Spartans-- they kicked a lot of **** but were eventually killed by superior numbers.

Nice, I like that.

Grayson Pryde, on 12 November 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

Well done warrior. Awarded a "like this"

Thanks

Edited by Stormwolf, 12 November 2011 - 05:41 PM.

[Omar Thirds]

So basically you get better toys but agree not to use them properly? I don't see how this would translate in game terms, because honor systems are difficult to implement (see America's Army 3).

[torgian]

Not sure if this was brought up or not, but if more than one enemy attacks a single Clan warrior, then the rules of zellbriggan go out the window at that point.

Also, it seems that in the Blood of Kerensky book series, the Clan warriors are at a bit of disadvantage when fighting up close and personal. this is probably due to inexperience, at least early on in the invasion.

Edited by torgian, 12 November 2011 - 07:36 PM.

[Hodo]

LordKelvin, on 12 November 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

I believe one of the big problems that everybody is anticipating is that, if somebody who is not part of the Clans (i.e., is not bound by Zellbrigen) somehow obtains access to Clan technology (either through purchase, or salvage, or however it is that you'll get it in the game), then there is nothing stopping that player from mopping the floor with everybody else. Sure, you could put massive cost penalties to obtaining and/or maintaining Clan technology, but at the tactical level, there's no real way for someone who doesn't have Clan technology to beat someone who does, given equal skill and tonnage.

Of course, I anticipate how they're going to implement the Clans no matter what, I'm keeping an open mind for everything.

This is more a reason to push for a War of 3039 timeframe or a Succession War timeframe and drop this silly notion of the clans.

But it is a GREAT post by the OP.

[Stormwolf]

Omar Thirds, on 12 November 2011 - 07:17 PM, said:

So basically you get better toys but agree not to use them properly? I don't see how this would translate in game terms, because honor systems are difficult to implement (see America's Army 3).

In a way yes, it could be implemented by having the players gain nothing if they don't take down their enemies themselves.

torgian, on 12 November 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

Not sure if this was brought up or not, but if more than one enemy attacks a single Clan warrior, then the rules of zellbriggan go out the window at that point.

Also, it seems that in the Blood of Kerensky book series, the Clan warriors are at a bit of disadvantage when fighting up close and personal. this is probably due to inexperience, at least early on in the invasion.

A Clan warrior can challenge multiple opponents. Under level 3 it could result in a free-for-all, but the attacked warrior can proclaim that he'll take on the new attacker as well. Now if 8 mechs open fire on 1 mech it could get ugly since the enemy doesn't respect zell. The Clan mechs could still hammer away at each individual IS mech to keep them from performing any type of team effort.

So what's it gonna be? Keep firing at that Warhawk? Or try to take cover from that Mad Dog that is firing LRM's and pulse lasers at you?

Edited by Stormwolf, 12 November 2011 - 07:55 PM.

[Venkman]

There's pretty much no way we can realistically expect the devs to somehow force Clan players to only pick one-on-one fights. About the only thing I expect to be different between playing Clans vs. Inner Sphere is that the IS force gets to bring along more players or more tonnage per player.

[madman]

This is a excellent boiling down of how we should operate. Seyla, warrior.

[MagnusEffect]

Also, THIS:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans

Has everything you need to really know.

[feor]

In terms of enforcing Zellbrigen in game. That's easy. You start the match at 100% honour.

You attack target A, target A now becomes your opponent. You're free to attack someone else if you see fit, but every attack made against another enemy deducts from your honour. However, every dishonourable thing done to you (say, attacked by a second enemy without having strayed from your opponent) restores a bit of honour. Have other obvious things alo move your honour up & down.

This way, if the Inner Sphere is fighting dirty, and you respond by fighting dirty, it all balances out in the end. If the Inner Sphere is honourable, and you fight dirty you lost honour. And at the end of the battle how much honour you have left factors into how much reward you get from the mission.

Not a perfect reflection of Zellbriggen, but the details of Zell are dang complicated (For example, if Wolf A is fighting Falcon A, he can choose to also attack Falcon B, which is considered implicit approval for them to engage him 2 on 1. If he wins the honour will be great because he has defeated two enemies, if he loses neither Falcon will lose face. But if Falcon B just wants to be helpful and attacks wolf a without being engaged Falcon B will lose face, and Wolf A could potentially earn even greater honour, as he was not truly prepared to fight 2 on 1, but won anyways. And if Falcon A calls for help from Falcon B, that is a great loss of face for Falcon A whether he wins or loses) and the interpretations of Zell's fine details can vary from clan to clan. (My beloved Ice Hellions, for example, consider a full light star engaging a single assault mech to not be dishonourable, provided that the star commander calls them off once the enemy has been reduced to the effectiveness of a light, at which point the star members will start bidding for the right to finish the mech off.

Also, level 4 Zellbriggen is not that rare, the Clans will forgo Zellbriggen when fighting any members of the Bandit caste, and several Inner Sphere units have earned the distinction of always having zellbriggen ignored (WoB being the prime examples) of course, there's also Inner Sphere units who have earned the right to have Level 1 Zellbriggen applied (Knight of the Sphere leap to mind, I believe).

And just for reference, by Clan Law, Wolf's Dragoons are members of the Bandit Caste.

[zudukai]

Stormwolf, on 12 November 2011 - 04:55 PM, said:

There are a lot of misconceptions about Clans and how they work. Some people have a hatred for the Clans while others aren't all that knowledgeable about them.

So I'll take this chance to explain how Clans work and how it could translate into gameplay.
...

Those who would break this oath are heretics! Worthy of neither pity nor mercy!
Honor to the Clans! for the Clan Beyond my dying breath!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

p.s. i am an Adder, i want to be part of the fight but my Clan is holding home turf at this point, who should i bunk up with till i get to be with my true brethren.

I think lyran till fellow clansmen show or dragoon, then i am not sure. (Don't want to stray too far from my ideals and have not gotten too deep in the lore yet)

Edited by zudukai, 13 November 2011 - 01:06 AM.

[Cyber Carns]

Ok, I have to give a big thumbs up to the OP. I have played the clans since mw2, and also played IS on the TT as well. Well everyone is talking stats and points and bv and such. That is fine if your talking about the TT BT. What everyone seems to be forgetting is one of the most important and most unpredictable things in any FPS/MMO/RPG video game................its the human behind the screen, the human touch, human skill, the human unpredictability. That is the biggest unknown in this type of game, you can have all the rules, stats and what ever numerical in the game, but you can never quantify what that person that's behind the screen will do, or what skill level that person has.
That being said I will play the Clans if and when available, the reasoning is that I love the Clan story, their history and they stand for( That comming from a Warden )

[chewie]

Kudos to OP for his try.

However, If your going to play Clan, and all it entails, its going to be down to the Individual player and clan/group to enforce the whole way of fighting.

Due to how games are played (multiplayer) nowadays, there is going to be no way to force the game to recognise that a clan player can only target 1 player at a time, unless attacked by another.

During MPBT3025, when there were only 4 players a side (and sometimes, only 1 against 4) it was often a case of adopting an almost clan like honour system, where the teams would face off, with 1 more more saying they would hang back UNTIL such times as either their team prevailed, or a space became open due to one of their team falling.

Granted it could still be a free for all when there were 2-3 players on each side in combat, but for the most part players would stick to their target as by the midway point, everyone was damaged enough by that point that adding a token medium laser or 2 to a battle was often not noticed straight off.

Now, that's not going to happen (the play style that is)

Look at CoD, BF, WoT even the old MW4, MW:LL, Space Marine....any game where you have a MP aspect, its just a free for all until 1 side achieves a victory.

Players of the current generation do not understand going 1 on 1, because they have never had to (accept for when they come across someone on their own while sneaking about the battlefield).

As for the whole clan tech vs IS tech, well, we'll just have to wait and see how the game is going to run as to whether we have 3-4 lances vs 3 stars (4 lances is the minimum required to get a draw or victory against 3 clan stars).

Its kinda pointless debating game mechanics until something becomes more concrete in what is going to be coded in.

I'd like to hope that clan players would *play by the rules* because of their inherent advantages they have from their weapons once they are added to the game, but I won't be counting on it.

Same as I expect that if we get the chance in a mechlab, to modify the weapons any how we choose, that pop-tarting will return along with every other nuisance that prevented the use of *honorable* game play during any MW3 onwards game involving Battlemechs.

[Amechwarrior]

I am not sure why I keep hearing people saying you cannot enforce Clan Honor in the games mechanics and it must be players who upkeep it. This is trivially simple even for massive games. If you see a IS 'mech and want to declare a challenge, it would work like the spotting system in BF3, as soon as you push the button that says "Hey, you! Yea, you! Your mine!" everyone would know that is your target, if you kill it you get Honor points or whatever Clans would use instead of cash and salvage. If you fire at another free unit, well you just made it 2 one 1 against you. If you fire on a already tagged opponent, you lose a ton of honor points, the more you keep doing this, the higher the penalty gets. If you try and cheat the system in any way, say - fire on targets before you declared for any single target then you lose an astronomical amount Honor points.

You could even add a system where if the Clanner challenges a 'mech below his weight class the IS guy could even reject it so the whiny power-gaming clan players cannot exploit it to wipe the floor against lower tonnage 'mechs. Make a message pop up on his hud in big flashy letters "Amechwarrior (Thor Prime 70t) has challenged you. You have 10 seconds accept." The IS of course would only see who is challenging who but would not have to give a hoot about it. Clans at this time play by lvl1, let the smart IS player use this to his advantage by trying to run front of a dueling clan 'mech to force him into a 2 on one. Making these rules run by the game and letting everyone know about how much harder it is will also keep out powergamers who want the easy road and any exploits on the Clan side can be adjusted or patched out.

Clan Honor rules can be done in the system, without player moderation, with heavy incentive for playing to the rules and harsh meta-game penalties to breaking those rules.