43 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 November 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Or the fact that if you were in a REAL Medium Mech running support, at least you would not lumber like a Mack Truck with a bad suspension, and could use your mobility to actually support your Big Fatty.

Also, try not to think of faded glories, now made impossible thanks to the Goons torturing every dev they could get their hands on .

[Roughneck45]

1C or Flame.

XL engine is a must.

You have to be a skilled pilot to make it work, because it is a seriously handicapped mech. 4 LL's or 4mlas gauss are the preferred builds, my favorite is 4mlas gauss srm6 XL300. In today's meta of auto cannons and PPC's it is very hard to do well in a Dragon. When brawling was the meta they were much more effective, but still weak overall when compared to other mechs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roughneck45, on 02 November 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

1C or Flame.

XL engine is a must.

You have to be a skilled pilot to make it work, because it is a seriously handicapped mech. 4 LL's or 4mlas gauss are the preferred builds, my favorite is 4mlas gauss srm6 XL300. In today's meta of auto cannons and PPC's it is very hard to do well in a Dragon. When brawling was the meta they were much more effective, but still weak overall when compared to other mechs.

that build also works surprisingly well with an LB-X paired to the SRM6.

Never thought I would be actually recommending an LBX, but, there it is.
FLAME
Kamikaze strafer. Run like hell, hit and keep running.

Because as previously noted, slow down, and you will die.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 November 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 02 November 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

And while the ShadowHawk is tall (and people decry it's height as a flaw), height doesn't hurt a mech. Width hurts a mech, which is why the dragon suffers.

QFT

[Nothing Whatsoever]

An XL 350 is an excellent engine for many Dragon builds.

And the Flame can pack an AC/20 and the hardpoint is high on the left torso: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...94c6a49dc978cff

[operator0]

The Dragon can be an asset in a match, if you are dedicated to it and practice a lot. The reason most run it is for the challenge. Most mechs are better than the Dragon and you'll likely do better in other mechs. That being said, when you get good with a Dragon, the satisfaction of carrying your team is much greater.

Now for the advice.

I used to run the 4LL build before Ghost Heat and it was a good build, but since Ghost Heat, there are much better builds. Trust me, I tried the 4LL build for several days after Ghost Heat and it was no where near as effective as it used to be and no where near as effective as other builds currently are.

I would recommend the Flame and two builds for it:

The first is AC10/4ML. This build is easy to master and can do pretty well in the current meta. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4b271f20e2faf81

The second, and my favorite, is the Gauss/4ML. It's better than the previous build if you are willing to master the Gauss firing mechanic. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3146518eca49518

Both builds pack the max size engine, which gives you 107kph after speed tweak. You should use that speed to acquire superior positioning over your opponents. Shoot and scoot is the name of the game. Situational awareness is key when running any mech, but doubly so when running Dragons. You need to know when you are too far away from the group and you need to know when you are about to be flanked. Remember though, you are faster than nearly any 50+ ton mech in those builds, so use that speed to evade and escape when you are going to be ganked.

The Gauss build is unique on the Flame in that the torso mounted ballistic hard point is very high up. Essentially, if you can see a mech, you can hit it. That combined with the amazing maneuverability and speed of the build allows you to ridge hump as well as any poptart. When you are eventually forced to brawl, do not forget to use that Gauss, and that speed. Try not to brawl a heavier mech that's fresh.

[N a p e s]

I'm still a fan of dragons though its been a while since I ran my Flame. You absolutely need the speed to survive and be useful in one of these. Though I can agree that the 4 Mlas + gauss build it probably as good as it gets I was being pretty successful with 2 Llas + 2 MLAs and an Lb10.

Basically this much has to be played as a hit and run type attacker.

[Training Instructor]

Just about everything the dragon can do well, the Shadowhawk can do better.

The shawk is much better as an assault escort, because it has several missile variants for mounting 3-4 streaks+ballistic+lasers.

[Carrioncrows]

Perhaps when PGI does the Hitbox pass on the dragon that it will once again become meta.

At this point the only Dragon I would recommend would be the 5N for it's triple ballistic points which I run like a heavy support mech.

X2 AC5's, AC2, and x2 meds

Let me see if i can find the video.



There you go. Action starts at 1:10

The Dragon does alright as a mid range fighter but there are very few places where you are free to mid range fight. Most of the time you have to get in close or snipe, and that massive CT reaches out and catches stray fire. So right now the dragon is very hard to use.

Most of the dragon pilots have migrated to the Shadowhawk which is 5 tons lighter but almost twice as effective.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 03 November 2013 - 02:19 AM.

[Adridos]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 November 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Which explains why the DRG lost out to the ShadowHawk in Star League trials. The same reason one is far better off using a ShadowHawk in MWO over a Dragon.

Dragon lost to Shadow Hawk in SL trials, because they used an AC/2 on it. In essence, they did the only thing once could possibly do to make an even crappier mech than a pre-3050 Shadow Hawk (which is a piece of junk, no way around it, maybe except for the Royal variant, but you don't put up external mechs against Royals in trials)...

That's why Dragons were replaced by Grand Dragons by DCMS.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adridos, on 03 November 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

Dragon lost to Shadow Hawk in SL trials, because they used an AC/2 on it. In essence, they did the only thing once could possibly do to make an even crappier mech than a pre-3050 Shadow Hawk (which is a piece of junk, no way around it, maybe except for the Royal variant, but you don't put up external mechs against Royals in trials)...

That's why Dragons were replaced by Grand Dragons by DCMS.

Even with the eventual 1N with the AC5 that house Kurita brought into service it was inferior to the shadowhawk, mostly because of the lack of JJs. And even more laughable shortchange firepower. The LRM10 was a marginal long range boost, but essentially a non existent one when paired with an ac2. the half ton difference in armor was also a non factor.

And sure, by 3050 standards the 2H was a piece. When stacked up against other Mechs of the 3025 era, it did just fine. Not as much firepower overall as a lot of the 50 tonners, but generally better armor, mobility and versatility. The Wolverine was better, thanks to having slightly more focus to it's armament, But the Shad did just fine. It wasn't helpless at short range liek the Griffin, wasn't as slow as a Heavy like, well pretty much all the 45-50 tonners, Wasn't heat crippled like the Phoenix Hawk if it actually trried to use it's guns all together, and didn't have either laughable speed (whitwhorth) or tissue paper armor (cicada, vulcan, assassin) like the 40 tonners. Add in th ehorrible builds all around it (Urbanmech, cicada, locust, stinger, wasp, whitworthless, Spider, ostscout, Panther (hit hard, but really a 64 kph Light?), Rifleman, Jagermech, Quickdraw, OST mechs in general, Charger, Banshee, Cyclops (90 ton mechs with the armor of a Hunchback? But hey it has an LRM10 and SRM4 for that extra 40 tons!!!) Gloiath, etc.

Much as I like my HBK-4G, Hunchies were generally a 1 trick pony. The WVR-6R, SHD-2H and Dervish were probably the 3 most overall useful Medium Mechs stock, because of their overall versatility. The Vindi, PHX, Enforcer, HBK, GRF and CN9 were better, situationally.

IDK, in context, doesn't seem so horrible. Though I usually ran a modded GRF because I thought they looked cooler.

[KinLuu]

If not for the horrible CT hitbox, and the very low arm mounts, the dragon would be a hell of a heavy.

[Bishop Steiner]

KinLuu, on 03 November 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

If not for the horrible CT hitbox, and the very low arm mounts, the dragon would be a hell of a heavy.

If the AWS wasn't a CT deathbox from hell, it would be one hell of an Assault. It isn't. And the Dragon is not a good Heavy.

[John MatriX82]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 November 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

If the AWS wasn't a CT deathbox from hell, it would be one hell of an Assault. It isn't. And the Dragon is not a good Heavy.

I was one of the "Dragon defenders" and a pretty mighty pilot inside any of them (I loved my 1N with 2xSRM4, GR and 2 meds). Due to the meta changes, movement nerf (=lack of JJs), srm nerf, gauss nerf, 12 man introduction, new mechs such as shadowhawks or Quickdraws and a number of extra issues.. they have become absolutely obsolete. My 1N and 1C are dusting off in my hangar by a lot of months.

Oh, and at high levels of play, "XL is a must" means "you're dead in no time", experienced players won't even bother to reach for your big CT.

Dragons need a considerable resize in their dimensions, making them much smaller than they are now along with some real bonuses like some permanent CT armor bonus; until then, I'd reccomend to stay away from them. Take a Quickdraw or a Shadowhawk instead if you need a flanker/fast mover/"bigger medium".

[Adridos]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 November 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

And sure, by 3050 standards the 2H was a piece. When stacked up against other Mechs of the 3025 era, it did just fine.

Actually, as far as 3025 goes, it is really not the mech you'd ever want to use. Shad is a mech that shines with 3050 starting with 5X versions. In 3025, Vindicator beats it up on every front except speed, but Shad doesn't even have good usage for that marginal speed advantage, especially when one considers the fact that Vindy out-jumps the mech.

Here's a good write up on it:

"Unfortunately, the Shadow Hawk's arsenal is not a model of efficacy. Its centerpiece is the autocannon. No number needed, just the autocannon, which we've come to know and love as the AC 5. There's a lot to be said about that weapon, but most of it has already been said, so I'll leave you to read the relevant threads on your own. Suffice it to say, the Shadow Hawk needs more. It tries to answer that with a LRM 5, but that is not enough. A 10 point long range punch is not going to cut it, by and large. At short range, it can bring a medium laser and a SRM 2 into the picture, right as the LRMs go out of it. If it lucks out, it can do 19 points of damage. One more would produce the possibility of a PSR.

The up side to all this: a grotesquely over the top 12 heatsinks make this one of the few level 1 alpha babies. It can jump forever while firing till its ammo runs dry and not care. This, along with its wide array of different weapons types, makes the Shadow Hawk a popular first mech to learn on, in contrast to the heat hog mechs so common in the era.

In the end, the Shadow Hawk is best suited for supporting other, better mech. It can fight equally poorly at any range, and it will not go down fast, allowing it to hold the line while long ranged Griffins and brawling Wolverines do their job. Its speed allows it to work with lighter mechs, as the AC 5 is a bit scary to Wasps and Stingers, and a one hex movement advantage is not a whole lot when you're looking at a 9 hex range deficit."

Vindy simply does the same at a much lesser cost and does it better.

"I'll certainly defend it as the best designed mech in the 3025 TRO. It has about as much armor as it can carry, enough heat sinks to fire and move constantly (jump 4, PPC, LRM5 all day long), a PPC (the best heavy gun of the era), an LRM5 to support the PPC, reasonable close in guns with an ML and an SL. 4/6/4 is maneuverable enough for the time frame--yeah, 5/8/5 is better movement, but I'll take the Vindicator's guns over the guns of the various medium 5/8/5s every time--never ending PPC fire goes a long way towards making up for being a little slower than other mechs.

There are certainly more heavily armed mechs and faster mechs and mechs that are specifically better for specific instances, but in terms of pure good design, Vindicator has no significant flaws to point to."

KinLuu, on 03 November 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

If not for the horrible CT hitbox, and the very low arm mounts, the dragon would be a hell of a heavy.

I'm sorry, KinLuu, but that's basically like saying: "If Dragon wasn't Dragon, it wouldn't suck."

The only thing I could think of is making the frontal hood a bit shorter, ala MW4 (not that short, but in the same sense).

[Bishop Steiner]

Adridos, on 03 November 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Actually, as far as 3025 goes, it is really not the mech you'd ever want to use. Shad is a mech that shines with 3050 starting with 5X versions. In 3025, Vindicator beats it up on every front except speed, but Shad doesn't even have good usage for that marginal speed advantage, especially when one considers the fact that Vindy out-jumps the mech.

Here's a good write up on it:

"Unfortunately, the Shadow Hawk's arsenal is not a model of efficacy. Its centerpiece is the autocannon. No number needed, just the autocannon, which we've come to know and love as the AC 5. There's a lot to be said about that weapon, but most of it has already been said, so I'll leave you to read the relevant threads on your own. Suffice it to say, the Shadow Hawk needs more. It tries to answer that with a LRM 5, but that is not enough. A 10 point long range punch is not going to cut it, by and large. At short range, it can bring a medium laser and a SRM 2 into the picture, right as the LRMs go out of it. If it lucks out, it can do 19 points of damage. One more would produce the possibility of a PSR.

The up side to all this: a grotesquely over the top 12 heatsinks make this one of the few level 1 alpha babies. It can jump forever while firing till its ammo runs dry and not care. This, along with its wide array of different weapons types, makes the Shadow Hawk a popular first mech to learn on, in contrast to the heat hog mechs so common in the era.

In the end, the Shadow Hawk is best suited for supporting other, better mech. It can fight equally poorly at any range, and it will not go down fast, allowing it to hold the line while long ranged Griffins and brawling Wolverines do their job. Its speed allows it to work with lighter mechs, as the AC 5 is a bit scary to Wasps and Stingers, and a one hex movement advantage is not a whole lot when you're looking at a 9 hex range deficit."

Vindy simply does the same at a much lesser cost and does it better.

"I'll certainly defend it as the best designed mech in the 3025 TRO. It has about as much armor as it can carry, enough heat sinks to fire and move constantly (jump 4, PPC, LRM5 all day long), a PPC (the best heavy gun of the era), an LRM5 to support the PPC, reasonable close in guns with an ML and an SL. 4/6/4 is maneuverable enough for the time frame--yeah, 5/8/5 is better movement, but I'll take the Vindicator's guns over the guns of the various medium 5/8/5s every time--never ending PPC fire goes a long way towards making up for being a little slower than other mechs.

There are certainly more heavily armed mechs and faster mechs and mechs that are specifically better for specific instances, but in terms of pure good design, Vindicator has no significant flaws to point to."



I'm sorry, KinLuu, but that's basically like saying: "If Dragon wasn't Dragon, it wouldn't suck."

The only thing I could think of is making the frontal hood a bit shorter, ala MW4 (not that short, but in the same sense).

nice critiques, but opinions are opinions. As stated, in context to nearly half the mechs available in 3025 tro, the Shadowhawk performs fine. There are better mechs (the Vindi seems fine, until a heavier unit shows up, and it dies while the shadowhawk disengages with it's 2 hexes a turn better run speed). All have their wart, all have their uses. The write up even mention it...the Shd is a good all purpose support mech. The Vindi is too. I find being the speed of a heavy in a medium is not good unless there aren't any heavies on the field.

If I want a 4/6 medium, I'll stick to the Enforcer, which does lose some range, but has better focused punch and heat management. As for "best designed in the TRO", to say that is debatable is putting it mildly, as the Centurion packs better punch, for marginally less armor, and less heat, the PhoenixHawk is far more manueverable, with solid armor and decent fire power (but admittedly bad heat) the Blackjack is actually one of the most underrated mechs in the TRO, again the Wolverine is a real contender, etc. And on the heavier end, while heat management is need, the Thunderbolt, the Orion (very well designed, though I never used it back in the day) and the Stalker (hot but intentionally designed to fire in staggered ranges) all could stake fair claims.

And many of the mechs shine in their specialties. Such as the HBK.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 November 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Carrioncrows, on 03 November 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

Perhaps when PGI does the Hitbox pass on the dragon that it will once again become meta.

Nope. As I outlined above, no amount of hitbox changing will help the Dragon. The problem with the Dragon isn't it's hitboxes, it's how wide it is. It's too easy a target, whether it's facing you or not. Say they made the CT narrow, and the side panels of it side torsos. This would just mean you couldn't use an XL in a dragon at all anymore (as it would be nearly impossible to miss the side torsos) and would be forced to move slow.

Then you're a slow moving, undergunned, exceptionally easy to hit target.

They just can't fix what's wrong with the Dragon - at least without totally redesigning the model itself, which they won't do. It's a fundamental design flaw.

[Fate 6]

Kyynele, on 02 November 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I can agree about Dragons not being that great, and about Flame being the best of them, but will have to disagree with 1C being the second best. Yeah, it has the same amount of similiar hardpoints as the Flame, but they are unintuitively spread around the arms and torsos which makes it greatly inferior in comparison.

Most people will probably disagree with me, but for myself, I'd claim the 5N is the next best Dragon, if not the best Dragon in the current ballistic-happy meta. Stick in 3x AC2 + 2x ML or 2x AC5 + 1x AC2 and plenty of ammo, and you can deal surprisingly much damage per match, while staying at a comfortable distance because of the decent speed of the mech and getting good shots in pretty much any angle thanks to all weapons being arm mounted.

In fact, the 5N is my only Dragon with above 2.0 KDR. Including the Flame.

I'm not much of a Dragon pilot, just my $0.02.

No love for the 1N? 2AC5+ERPPC or 2AC5+2ML+2Streak2, or even just Gauss+whatever missiles+energy. Very adaptable variant, quite solid for whatever role you need a Dragon to perform (harass lights, mobile sniper, etc)

[Carrioncrows]

Wintersdark, on 03 November 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Nope. As I outlined above, no amount of hitbox changing will help the Dragon. The problem with the Dragon isn't it's hitboxes, it's how wide it is. It's too easy a target, whether it's facing you or not. Say they made the CT narrow, and the side panels of it side torsos. This would just mean you couldn't use an XL in a dragon at all anymore (as it would be nearly impossible to miss the side torsos) and would be forced to move slow.

Then you're a slow moving, undergunned, exceptionally easy to hit target.

They just can't fix what's wrong with the Dragon - at least without totally redesigning the model itself, which they won't do. It's a fundamental design flaw.

Sorry you feel that way. Yes the dragon is big but with better hitboxes it will allow you to better spread the incoming damage across several locations rather than taking it all on one.

That's what can be done in the short term. How well you do once the hitboxes are done is really up to your skill.

Long term I think the Dragon, Atlas, Quickdraw, Awesome could all do with rescaling if not completely reworking the mechs. The Atlas especially. Right now the atlas is a joke considering how low slung it's weapons are.

[Tahribator]

I think Dragons only become powerful when you're quite experienced in MWO. It has decent firepower and armor, but most of the work piloting a successful Dragon lies in abusing your mobility and knowing when to go in and out. The ridiculous arm yaw, high speed and torso twist has to be abused to their limits. Dragon makes a terrible dedicated brawler or a sniper, it also doesn't go well within big blobs.

Instead it plays almost like a light, go deep into the enemy lines; find isolated mechs away from main groups, hit that sniper/lrm boat in the back and punish them for going "all in". It certainly have the armor to take punishment from heavier mechs for a while. Or dive into a brawl, find that XL mech with open torso, finish him and get out again before getting primaried only to dive again when they switch targets.

You absolutely suck against anything else though. A well piloted light can literally solo you if you don't carefully pick your fight. Actually the hitbox distribution is decent, and the half of the CT sticking out is actually ST. The problem is your CT/ST can be hit even when you're sideways to your target. You have a "fat profile" from all angles.

If you work these out, and accept the losses when enemy doesn't present juicy targets to you: Dragons are pretty fun. Actually, I like all the variants. After eliting all of them, I couldn't get myself to sell any.