95 replies to this topic

[Asyres]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 04 November 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

I'll have to go with tonnage limits first, before any more changes to mechs systems like torso twist, etc.

Beyond that I'd say that lights through mediums could all use better accel & decel in general across the board.

Tonnage limits aren't likely to change overall balance all that much, other than forcing more players into lighter chassis (or endure longer queue times to compensate). In effect, a tonnage limit will increase the frequency with which we see lights and mediums on the battlefield without making them any stronger than they are now.

While we may see somewhat increased survivability among mediums as a result of decreased net firepower on each team, this will be true of every weight class.

tl;dr: weight limits won't meaningfully improve mediums.

[Treye Snow]

Arguably speaking, one could also argue Heavies have too MUCH agility rather than mediums not having enough.

I think they should hit the entire weight class with a small nerf in terms of turning speed.

Also, increasing the Acceleration and Deceleration of heavies too much would make them too strong against Assaults since the key to killing an assault is being able to stay in his shadow. That's only accomplished by having good Accel/Decel.

Great care must be taken with this particular buff/nerf set.

[keith]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 04 November 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

I'll have to go with tonnage limits first, before any more changes to mechs systems like torso twist, etc.

Beyond that I'd say that lights through mediums could all use better accel & decel in general across the board.

tonnage limit won't matter. ppl will go with what works. they will ton down to mediums for lights because they work. use the extra tonnage for heavys/assaults. how tonnage limit based mech leagues work. game still needs a big red beta tag next to its name

[Treye Snow]

keith, on 04 November 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

tonnage limit won't matter. ppl will go with what works. they will ton down to mediums for lights because they work. use the extra tonnage for heavys/assaults. how tonnage limit based mech leagues work. game still needs a big red beta tag next to its name

It is my understanding you will not be able to field multiple mechs of the same weight class beyond a certain limit.

I.E You must have 3 per weight class and still be under X tonnage.

If they just introduced a simple tonnage limit of say, 700 tons, you would still get groups fielding extremely heavy mechs/assaults and freeing the tonnage with a lance of lights.

Tonnage is only half the equation. You need set rules on weight fielding as well.

EDIT: The 3 per weight class is only an example. A more likely assembly would be (from Light > Assault) 3 4 3 2.

Edited by Mr Terribad, 04 November 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not really convinced it would suffice. But we should try at least.

[Taemien]

Selfish, on 04 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I agree in concept, but not in execution. I'd rather reduce the agility of heavies and assaults than continuously push everything faster and faster. The problem is most easily adjusted in the placeholder efficiency tree, which ultimately gives all mechs a ton of control & responsiveness.

This. Its not so much that mediums are too sluggish (though I think they could be a bit more agile).. heavies and assaults have way too much mobility. Tone them down, and everything under 60 tons becomes very attractive.

I would go so far as reduce the engine sizes for 60-100 tonners to 110% of the stock engine (and for a week after the change, allow engines to be sold back at 100% value to compensate). This way speed and agility lies in the lights and mediums area, firepower in heavy and assault.

With tonnage limits, it will still allow heavies to be viable instead of it just being lights, mediums, and assaults. Heavies aren't really in a tough spot, their tonnages allow them to have a myriad of varied loadouts so being restricted to them for the sake of tonnage limits isn't as bad as it would be for mediums or lights.

To recap:

1. Mediums receive turning, acceleration/deceleration buff.
2. Heavies and Assaults receive turning, acceleration/deceleration nerf.
3. Heavies and Assaults have engine size max limited to 110% of the stock engine

Combine these changes with the proposed tonnage limits and you will see a game full of mediums, and lights with the occasional heavy or assault supporting.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

then the lights need theirs raised also... which would leave you right where we are right now. So no.

LOL


if you are in a med. and QQ you cant keep up with lights... play a light....

[Roland]

Prosperity Park, on 04 November 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

There are many ways to improve the abilities of Medium Mechs without having to re-scale the models. Giving consideration to their intended role, which is a cheap bruiser and not a battle cruiser, this could be very well complimented with greater maneuverability. There is a reason why smaller things in the world tend to be more agile than larger things, and that's because the smaller and weaker things need their agility to survive in the face of stronger things.

There is currently a very small difference in the turning radius of any given Heavy Mech that has been up-engined to the same speed of a given Medium Mech; this should change. I know that the linear speed of a Mech will be determined by Engine divided by Weight, but I feel that maneuverability should be *strongly* in favor of the Medium Mech, instead of the current system where they see only a slight and almost insignificant advantage in turning ability, acceleration, and deceleration.

Agreed with all points here.

Also, I find it weird to be agreeing with Prosperity on things.

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 04 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Agreed with all points here.

Also, I find it weird to be agreeing with Prosperity on things.

Either the Mechapocalypse or the Urbie will show up soon.

I'm rooting for the latter, but anticipate the former.

[Charons Little Helper]

I really don't think weight limits will mean lights & assaults only.

Mediums can be made into anti-light mechs with relative ease. If the 6 light / 6 assault mech team became the meta, the easy counter would be 4 mediums who are built to be anti-light, along with a mix of the other 4 classes to deal with the assaults. The 4 mediums could counter the 6 lights with relative ease, and then wheel and help the rest of their team deal with the 6 assaults.

Even my AC20 hunchie eats lights for breakfast. (can book it at 92.7kph)

[Murphy7]

Mister Blastman, on 04 November 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

But lights aren't a significant advantage right now. Not by a longshot. If you play vs. pro players, that is.

In the Pro levels lights die in one or two shots. 2x PPC + 2x AC 5 obliterates light legs in a single alpha many times leaving them hopping and begging to die.

I disagree. There is a huge jump in the engine + maneuverability between lights and everyone else. Mediums and heavies are on too tight of a scale, such that heavies can routinely outmaneuver mediums with sufficient engine rating, and the lighter end of the assaults do not trail so far behind the mediums & heavies. If there is room on the continuum, it is for mediums to get closer to lights in maneuverability for their respective engine investment.

I think this issue exists at all levels of play, and is not something where one group's experience at either end of the ELO pool should dictate design.

Edited by Murphy7, 04 November 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Asyres]

So the question is, what's the best way to implement agility adjustments?

I think a good start would be to alter the pilot trees to reflect variations between classes -- or ideally between chassis. There's no reason an assault should get the same bonuses to turning and twisting that a medium or light does.

Reducing the effect of engine size on non-speed agility would also help.

[stjobe]

First off, any medium pilot worth his neurohelmet will make short work of a light in a 1v1. That's not where the issue lies.

The biggest problem is that the pilot efficiencies make assaults move like heavies, heavies move like medium, medium move like lights, and lights - well lights already move like lights, so they're the least affected by it.

The whole game is too fast, and it's the fault of the pilot efficiencies.

They were initially envisioned at 2.5% increases, but now we're at 7.5% - 40% (torso twist speed elited) increases. It's just too damn much, and it changes the whole dynamic of a 'mech, and sadly it's the mediums that gets hit the hardest (although light 'mechs are also hit when the torso twist speed of a heavy/assault completely invalidates the light's speed advantage).

So I say remove the pilot skills. Implement the role skills from Dev Blog 4: Role Warfare instead. The game would be much, much better for it, and with proper role warfare lights and mediums would be truly useful on the battlefield.

[RandomLurker]

While I don't disagree with the OP, I think size scaling is more important. The current agility + a reasonable size would result in a lot more durability then people expect because damage would spread out more.

I also think an engine cap upgrade on certain mediums would be in order as well. Hit and Run is the only reason to run a medium mech compared to something larger- if your mech can't Run (blackjack), it doesn't matter if it can hit.

[Asyres]

RandomLurker, on 04 November 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

While I don't disagree with the OP, I think size scaling is more important. The current agility + a reasonable size would result in a lot more durability then people expect because damage would spread out more.

I also think an engine cap upgrade on certain mediums would be in order as well. Hit and Run is the only reason to run a medium mech compared to something larger- if your mech can't Run (blackjack), it doesn't matter if it can hit.

Currently, the two largest mediums are considered to be the best (Centurion and Shaqhawk). I'm not saying that mediums couldn't be improved by a scaling pass, just that it's probably not the most critical way that they might be improved.

[Davers]

Asyres, on 04 November 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Tonnage limits aren't likely to change overall balance all that much, other than forcing more players into lighter chassis (or endure longer queue times to compensate). In effect, a tonnage limit will increase the frequency with which we see lights and mediums on the battlefield without making them any stronger than they are now.

While we may see somewhat increased survivability among mediums as a result of decreased net firepower on each team, this will be true of every weight class.

tl;dr: weight limits won't meaningfully improve mediums.

Tonnage limits, unless VERY strict, will not make mediums more attractive. In fact, it may very well take them off the field entirely. Much better to have lights, heavies, and assaults then to weaken your heavies and assaults by taking mediums.

Lights have speed, let mediums have agility. Maybe 'fast mediums' will have less of a bump and 'slow lights' can be improved as well. But medium mechs really need something to make them more attractive compared to a heavy.

[stjobe]

RandomLurker, on 04 November 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Hit and Run is the only reason to run a medium mech compared to something larger

When SRM hit registration worked properly the triple-ASRM-6 Centurion proved that mediums can be terrifying brawlers.
The Hunchback did the same.

A medium should be the ideal mix of mobility and firepower; a role that's currently held by the heavy - and as you can see above, I blame the pilot skills for that. With less mobility on the heavies, the mediums could reclaim their proper place.

[Roland]

Asyres, on 04 November 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

So the question is, what's the best way to implement agility adjustments?

Increase turn and twist rate on all mediums by 50% and see how they feel.

[Grym]

I like the idea about mediums.

And i would agree to lights having another slight boost to their agility...IF THEY FIX SPIDERS AND HSR IN GENERAL.

Till then...NO. And if it happens before then, it will be time for another extended break where i check patch notes once a week until its fixed.

[Wolfways]

Please no! Mediums do not need a buff. All others need nerfed.
Slower speed for movement and torso twist imo.