39 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

How about a Module, like the Cap Accelerator, but it replaces Cap Time back on to your already depleted Cap. So your being Capped, you managed to get back, stop the Cap, then knocked out the capper (for a Bonus) but then you have to stay if there is but a sliver of Time left. This Modules adds back Cap Time at twice the rate it is currently removed. Add more time and then go back to the fight...

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 November 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I'd like to see this being available for mediums as well - they are more in need of love.

[MustrumRidcully]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 06 November 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I'd like to see this being available for mediums as well - they are more in need of love.

Well, if your Medium scouts, these are for him. If not...

What do Mediums do that other mechs don't do?

I guess that's the problem of Mediums. Wanna deal damage? Why not take a Heavy or Assault?
Wanna flank? Why not a fast Heavy or Assault?
Wanna scout? Why not a Light?
Wanna eat from the waste bin? Why not Zoidberg?

What's that only Mediums are good at? What could be something?

But that's something for a different topic.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 November 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[William Mountbank]

I want a module that converts some proportion of my scouting XP rewards into C-Bills for a match. I have about 3 billion XP on my lights, and way more GXPs than cash. The only incentive for me to waste a precious energy hardpoint on TAG and do classical scouting is cold hard spacebucks.

Edited by William Mountbank, 06 November 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[Kunae]

There is no such thing as a scouting "role" in MWO.

The maps are too small and the targeting system and sensor systems do not allow it. Not to mention that the game-modes do not allow it.

At best there can be fast light skirmishers who can do an initial spot on an enemy force. After that, they will be dead if they do not have ECM and want to maintain a target or targets under observation. Even with ECM, there's a good chance you'll be dead, as we're not allowed to use proper camo, and visible(but not collision) landscape features do not hinder our "sensors" in the least... even though they are supposed to be visual sensors, according to PGI.

[topgun505]

Multi-target module. Any opposing mech within sensor range and you have a clear LOS to is locked, not just a single unit. Only available to light class mechs.

Edited by topgun505, 06 November 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[stjobe]

Also some good ideas here: Dev Blog 4: Role Warfare.

To think they had this all planned out and then dumped it for the current system... It's enough to make a grown man cry.

[Roadkill]

It's

MustrumRidcully, on 06 November 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Like the Assist bonus encourages everyone to spread their damage across all tarets and then die in the middle of enemy fire?

Maybe.

But it depends a lot on how high the reward is, and what other rewards you can all get for actually helping.

It's actually worse than that. "Assist farming" only works if your team wins, so a farmer who goes off and dies instantly makes it less likely that his farming would be successful, which makes that type of farming less appealing.

"First sighting" farming wouldn't care if the team won or lost. Ergo, more appealing to farmers.

[Trauglodyte]

I support the "I see you first" and Jman5's "fog of war" concept.

I would also suggest the following:

- disclosing the mech and variant on the scoreboard once someone, scout or otherwise, targets and gets sensor data on a mech</li>
- creating a module that would be a Scout specific one that would allow constant sensor information on all targets with 150-180m of the primary target.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 08 November 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[Kojin]

I was thinking a lot about lights as recently I've been trying my hand at my Locusts. I've never been a good light pilot, but I'm an alright scout... if I have a group to relay back to via VoIP... Which is the problem I feel; it's nearly impossible to keep alive in a Locust whilst typing what mechs are where and heading which direction.

So my proposal would be (either a module to allow it or a default scouting action) to give xp/cb for getting visual on enemy mechs. This information would then be relayed as a marker similar to seismic but only on the command map screen. If you keep them in view for more then 5 seconds the round blip turns into an arrow and longer than 10 seconds would give mech type as well. Each of these tiers would be rewarded an additional cb/xp amount.The info would degrade over a few seconds and could then be reacquired after a time for additional, but less, xp/cb.

I also think cap ticks should reward small amounts of cb/xp too as sitting in a capture point is as much use to a win as just damaging a mech slightly.

[Warlordblackwolf]

Some good suggestions here.

Trauglodyte - I was thinking of your Mech data sharing idea the other day. I think it is great, especially with an appropriate cbill/xp bonus. Also the possibility of speeding up the information gathering of friendly units for targets that have already been fully scouted occured to me.

The "First to spot a unit", reward limits "Farming" to 12 instances in a match, and that "Farming" is actually scouting which is the role that mech was designed for. Plus it keeps scouts focused on enemy Mechs rather than random map locations, which is kind of good.

Points for reaquiring a unit that has been untargeted for 30 seconds sounds great, it would need some limit to stop "farming" as this could become a real issue with a couple of mechs deliberately draging out a game to pad bonuses.

Rather than a "first" bonus on base caps (and yes, I feel there should be some sort of delay, probably 5 minutes, before this becomes available in conquest) I would recomend the amount you caused the cap to change, be treated as a "ghost damage". Again, "farming" becomes possible, so there would likely be an upper limit of "ghost damage" available for a given base per team, in a given timeframe. The nature of the current game modes would also help limit this in normal instances, so the limits would only really be felt by farmers.

As was mentioned by someone else, TAG should also probably share some "ghost damage" bonus, where you are rewarded for the ammount of teammate induced tag assisted damage done to a target, rather than just some pittance of points. (and for crying out loud, please make tag a toggle, either as an option changeable through chainfire, the actual "option" screen, or some other method) Farming doesn't really seem like an issue here.

Please, put more modules in the game. However, making class specific modules lowers useability and mech design options. A good module should have benefits for lots of different classes, they may not always be "top tier" but they have to serve some purpose or they risk becoming ineficient programming time. If the decision were made to go this route, it might be more viable to have the modules act slightly differently in different class mechs, rahter than have different modules.

Waypoint bonuses are tricky. It really doesn't serve gameplay to have your scouts trying to see what is in the back corner of "Alpine Peaks" as opposed to actually looking for enemy mechs. This looks like it would lead to delay of game type stuff.

TLDR: Lots of good stuff here. Hope the positive posting keeps up in this thread.

[Jman5]

Warlordblackwolf, on 08 November 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Waypoint bonuses are tricky. It really doesn't serve gameplay to have your scouts trying to see what is in the back corner of "Alpine Peaks" as opposed to actually looking for enemy mechs. This looks like it would lead to delay of game type stuff.

TLDR: Lots of good stuff here. Hope the positive posting keeps up in this thread.

Knowing that there is nothing down one avenue can be just as important as knowing there is something down another. You're right that having random or non-essential navpoint markers would not help the team much, but I think you can dissect all the maps into 2-4 key paths that are worth scouting. You could even tailor them for gamemode. In Conquest the Navpoints could be the various capture zones.

It also encourages more movement in the game and less sitting around waiting for one side to push.

[MustrumRidcully]

Well, for "waypoints" - my idea was to have secondary objectives that grant extra rewards - for example "find the stranded pilot/combat unit/lost sensor probe/science team". But that was something that was more aimed at generally having a bit more variety in each match without introducing a fully fledged separate game mode.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 November 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[Warlordblackwolf]

Jman5, on 08 November 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Knowing that there is nothing down one avenue can be just as important as knowing there is something down another.

True, I just have a hard time wanting to reward someone for NOT finding things. I worry that the map could become a scout racetrack, with them more intent on reaching the next waypoint, than actually finding an enemy mech that is hiding just out of sight of the well known waypoint.

I agree that any information is important. On those large maps that don't offer naturally occuring common engagement zones, the waypoint could bring opposing mechs together.

The idea has merrit, I just don't feel it is a good solution to "this" problem. It gives me the impression of another game mode where a point is captured and dissapears for a time. With scouts running between spawn points and fatties doing their best to "plow the road". (wondered off topic on that thought.)

[Trauglodyte]

Just to add something to the discussion as XP/cbills came up, I want to posit a question to you all:

Do ANY of you think that it is acceptable, on any level, to give the same amount of XP/cbills to someone driving an Atlas that does the same amount of damage with the same amount of kills/assists as someone in a Locust? Weight, tech level, and efficiency level MUST be brought into the equation. It unduely screws the lightest pilot just as it hampers the guy that is just working on their brand new mech versus someone that has the optimum builds and mastered out or is in something 4x its size.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 08 November 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Hot box: 5000 cbill per cap point you are standing in when it changes control in conquest

It's down to you: 10000 Cbills when you win the match as the sole remaining mech on your side.

Because it's stupid that I get paid less when I singlehandedly win the game by capping after everyone else has done a conga line suicide into massed enemy fire the average assault mech pilot gets when they lose.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 08 November 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Jman5]

Warlordblackwolf, on 08 November 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

True, I just have a hard time wanting to reward someone for NOT finding things. I worry that the map could become a scout racetrack, with them more intent on reaching the next waypoint, than actually finding an enemy mech that is hiding just out of sight of the well known waypoint.

I agree that any information is important. On those large maps that don't offer naturally occuring common engagement zones, the waypoint could bring opposing mechs together.

The idea has merrit, I just don't feel it is a good solution to "this" problem. It gives me the impression of another game mode where a point is captured and dissapears for a time. With scouts running between spawn points and fatties doing their best to "plow the road". (wondered off topic on that thought.)

I think you're absolutely right that many players would just treat it like a reward to be gathered up without really caring about being a teamplayer. However, I think by giving them that bonus you are incentivizing good gameplay. The greedy player is also also helping his team by gaining map control and watching areas of importance.

Oh and just to be clear, the line I drew from navpoint to navpoint was just an example of a path a player could take. The important thing is arriving at that point because it doesn't matter what path you took. Players would not be on some track they have to follow. I'm also not trying to say this is "the solution" to rewarding lights. It's just one of many that could be added to the game. For example being the first to target and reveal the information of a mech could give the player some bonuses. I feel that would synergize well with players who are traveling down collecting navpoint rewards because as soon as you target a mech it's transmitted to the whole team whether you want to or not.

Trauglodyte, on 08 November 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Just to add something to the discussion as XP/cbills came up, I want to posit a question to you all:

Do ANY of you think that it is acceptable, on any level, to give the same amount of XP/cbills to someone driving an Atlas that does the same amount of damage with the same amount of kills/assists as someone in a Locust? Weight, tech level, and efficiency level MUST be brought into the equation. It unduely screws the lightest pilot just as it hampers the guy that is just working on their brand new mech versus someone that has the optimum builds and mastered out or is in something 4x its size.

I wish at the very least they would add a Damage/Ton statistic to the main End of Round Screen so 90 ton highlanders would shut up about their 500 damage games. That's equivalent to a Jenner doing a mere 192 damage.

Edited by Jman5, 08 November 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Kojin]

Trauglodyte, if the rewards for scouting actions was implemented properly light mechs wouldn't necessarily need to do much damage or get many kills or assists to out perform a heavier mech doing low damage. On the other hand, if an assault mech ends up caught out of position and decides to do some capping while it's near a point, it would then benefit from some reward instead of being totally useless.

[Warlordblackwolf]

A wonderfull question Trauglodyte. Not sure this is the right thread for it, but it does address scouting payment imbalances.

Personnaly, it seems like the team should split the rewards evenly, with specific bonuses going to individuals. This doesn't really fly in PUGs however, as the "every man for himself" mentality tends to dominate. And it opens the door to "Grief Farming" where an individual gets on the team and disconects to jump on another mech and do the same.

Dividing damage by tonage is how I determine if I have really helped my team. It might be possible to cause indivdual rewards to be mitigated by tonage, but without a carefull approach, it would likely become a battle of tiny mechs looking for the smallest divisor in their equation, with large tonnage seen as an unnescessarry liabilty. Besides, the largest guys tend to get targeted first, that can really mess with this.

I believe proper roll bonuses based on actions taken would be a better mitigator than any size quantifiers.

[Rhent]

mike29tw, on 06 November 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

MustrumRidcully and stjobe, I like that you're trying to improve scouting, but the direction you're taking almost look like a list of challenges/achievements...... it looks arcady, tbh. I'd prefer to come up with some tools, either modules or weapons, designed specifically for scouting.




There we go. Adv. TAG in the module slot, invisible TAG that doesn't require a laser hardpoint.

Also I had this idea for a while, a module(or make it a BAP feature) that shares both your current target and your last target on C3 network, given that you still have LoS to your last target.

Here's another one, a module(or an extra piece of equipment) that marks the last known position of your target when you lose LoS on all teammates' HuD and map.

Well now all of a sudden a fast running Locust at 1,000M out using TAG is useful to the team rather than being an easy kill or capping vehicle that dies to spiders, jenners and kintaros Oh My.