33 replies to this topic

[Voivode]

Nice info Strum! Any of those ideas would act as a nice filler for in between. The Grenade launcher would actually be a nice compliment to MGs, assuming they cause some screen shake. A locust or spider with 2xMG, 2xGL, and ML would be pretty effective, for what it is.

[RandomLurker]

Agreed to needing a mid-way ballistic, especially for medium mechs, although I don't think that a "it's totally not a missile launcher, really" cannon is the way to go.

Firstly, I'll just say this, screw the timeline. This is game balance.

All the options sound good but I think the best one to start at will be the Rifles. AKA, autocannons minus the 'auto' part. Now the TT rules penalizing their use against mechs make no sense, either from any kind of realism standpoint or relevance to MWO (since MWO is not a combine arms game). Instead, I suggest giving them a clip/reload mechanic- you get 5/3/2/whatever shots as if it's a normal AC, and then a nice hefty (5-10 seconds) reload. Benefit would be that they are dirt cheap and lightweight. This would make them a good hit-and-run weapon and fill the ballistics gap on medium and light mechs very nicely. No class 20 version though. A pocket AC20 would be OP (can you imagine the spiders? yech....) They're also in-timeline, even though I'd rather ignore it, since they are stated to be extremely old tech.

Heavy machines guns are the same- how much R+D does it take to turn a 20mm machine gun into a 40mm one? Really, timeline is completely nonsensical on this one.

Make it so!

[General Godmode]

What I love about this game is it tries well at keeping everything cannon. It makes it seem more legit and real. I love that about this game hands down. If they start mixing other {Scrap} and try it out here it will be the last day I log in. I love mechwarrior online. NOT battle tech or what have you.

Good idea yea, just not here no!

[MonkeyCheese]

If I had my way.

For lights and mediums

RPG
Magshot
Light rifles all
Light ACs

For mediums and up
Lb2x AC
Lb5x AC

Also definitely need half ton ammo

Please just anything that is in or near the timeline for between machine guns and the AC2, machine guns are very situational and I have never really liked them in mwo.

As for the AC2 I think it is a wonderful weapon and have used it well on my 5k spider and my 4x raven. Problem is that it is a 6 ton weapon and you need seriously at least 3-4 tons of ammo in 12v12 to defend yourself and make real use of it. So 9-10 tons needed for a light or medium mech and multi ballistic hard point mechs such as the locust, spider, cicada and the eventual flea would have either MG's or lots of wasted hard points and be really gimped in other areas when trying to carry an AC2.

[HammerSwarm]

Voivode, on 06 November 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I like the OP suggestion and FupDup's. Something between the AC2 and MG needs to be in game.

Lucky for you there is already an option for an effective light ballistic in battletech which is available in 3050 and is just waiting to be added to the game. It's called the Machine Gun

The machine gun in battletech is a short range powerhouse with ample ammunition. It has no heat. A very short range, and does the same damage as an A/C 2.

[Trauglodyte]

The Mech Mortar will fix the issue that we have. The problems with it, though, include how they're going to code its use.

Mech Mortar: 2 damage; 21 hex range (620m MWO)

• 1 - weighs 2 tons, 1 crit at 1 heat per round
  
• 2 - weighs 5 tons, 2 crits at 2 heat per round
  
• 4 - weighs 7 tons, 3 crits at 5 heat per round (see PPC)
  
• 8 - weighs 10 tons, 5 crits at 10 heat per round

The way that it should work is like an LRM in that it fires by way of an arc. The problem, though, is that all weapons in game have their standard TT range and then are either doubled (energy) or tripled (ballistics) with their damage reduced beyond normal ranges due to disperson or velocity drop off. Part of the damage caused by a ballistic weapon is, beyond the explosive war head, the impact from the metal against its target. Mortars don't work this way. You can't just raise your arc and have them still hit because they already fire in an arc and the speed of the round doesn't impact its damage. So, you're already looking at an issue with range but I imagine they'd go LRM with it and make its max range 1250m and put in a 240-360m minimum range (mortars already have minimum ranges).

Problem 2 is how you differentiate each mortar. The shell used by each does the same damage regardless of what the number indicates (weird, I know). The only difference between the mortars is the weight, critical space, and number of rounds per ton of ammo. But, that last bit would indicate that each mortar shell is larger as the weapon increases in number. Could be that, and I don't have the rules in front of me (Tactical Operation), the number of the mortar actually indicates how many rounds are fired and that ammo count is actually a "clip". Regardless, they'd have to go the AC route here and simply use the number as the damage (ie, 1, 2, 4 and 8).

Problem 3 is how they'd be coded on use. Ballistics are dumb fired but mortars had the ability to fire semi-guided shells (the rules indicated that TAG was necessary but with MWO that doesn't seem likely). Thing is, they'd have to travel at a much faster rate than the LRMs but wouldn't have anywhere near the turn speed. SO, if you're looking at the MM-1 and comparing it to the AC2, you could say that the shell would travel at about 75% its speed (1500m/s) and probably have a turn radius of 25% of LRMs. That is just spit *******, though.

The final problem is that, unlike other ballistics that are pin point, mortars are artillery pieces. So, we're talking about having to code them to act like the Artillery Strike module. If you use the mortar number as damage, you'd have to say that the MM-1 would do 1 damage to its target and everything within maybe 10-20m? It has to have splash damage because it doesn't make sense to not have it. You could then refrain from jacking up the ROF on the mortars to keep pace with the ACs and just allow them to be area denial weapons. Niche but still powerful.

Anyway, the Mech Mortar is what this game really needs in the way of a light ballistic weapon. Locusts, Fleas, Spiders, and other mechs are in dire need of them without having to reinvent the wheel with the MG.

[Strum Wealh]

Trauglodyte, on 07 November 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

The Mech Mortar will fix the issue that we have. The problems with it, though, include how they're going to code its use.

Mech Mortar: 2 damage; 21 hex range (620m MWO)

• 1 - weighs 2 tons, 1 crit at 1 heat per round
  
• 2 - weighs 5 tons, 2 crits at 2 heat per round
  
• 4 - weighs 7 tons, 3 crits at 5 heat per round (see PPC)
  
• 8 - weighs 10 tons, 5 crits at 10 heat per round

The way that it should work is like an LRM in that it fires by way of an arc. The problem, though, is that all weapons in game have their standard TT range and then are either doubled (energy) or tripled (ballistics) with their damage reduced beyond normal ranges due to disperson or velocity drop off. Part of the damage caused by a ballistic weapon is, beyond the explosive war head, the impact from the metal against its target. Mortars don't work this way. You can't just raise your arc and have them still hit because they already fire in an arc and the speed of the round doesn't impact its damage. So, you're already looking at an issue with range but I imagine they'd go LRM with it and make its max range 1250m and put in a 240-360m minimum range (mortars already have minimum ranges).

Problem 2 is how you differentiate each mortar. The shell used by each does the same damage regardless of what the number indicates (weird, I know). The only difference between the mortars is the weight, critical space, and number of rounds per ton of ammo. But, that last bit would indicate that each mortar shell is larger as the weapon increases in number. Could be that, and I don't have the rules in front of me (Tactical Operation), the number of the mortar actually indicates how many rounds are fired and that ammo count is actually a "clip". Regardless, they'd have to go the AC route here and simply use the number as the damage (ie, 1, 2, 4 and 8).

Problem 3 is how they'd be coded on use. Ballistics are dumb fired but mortars had the ability to fire semi-guided shells (the rules indicated that TAG was necessary but with MWO that doesn't seem likely). Thing is, they'd have to travel at a much faster rate than the LRMs but wouldn't have anywhere near the turn speed. SO, if you're looking at the MM-1 and comparing it to the AC2, you could say that the shell would travel at about 75% its speed (1500m/s) and probably have a turn radius of 25% of LRMs. That is just spit *******, though.

The final problem is that, unlike other ballistics that are pin point, mortars are artillery pieces. So, we're talking about having to code them to act like the Artillery Strike module. If you use the mortar number as damage, you'd have to say that the MM-1 would do 1 damage to its target and everything within maybe 10-20m? It has to have splash damage because it doesn't make sense to not have it. You could then refrain from jacking up the ROF on the mortars to keep pace with the ACs and just allow them to be area denial weapons. Niche but still powerful.

Anyway, the Mech Mortar is what this game really needs in the way of a light ballistic weapon. Locusts, Fleas, Spiders, and other mechs are in dire need of them without having to reinvent the wheel with the MG.

The Mech Mortar is a missile-type weapon system, and (like the LRM and SRM launchers) the number on the mortar itself (e.g. 1, 2, 4, 8) represents the number if individual shells launched per salvo - that is, the Mech Mortar/1 (which has the same mass & crit requirements as a LRM-5 launcher) launches one 2-damage shell while the Mech Mortar/8 (which has the same mass & crit requirements as a LRM-20 launcher) launches eight 2-damage shells.

The implementation of the Mech Mortar could, ideally (IMO), be similar to the short-lived "high-arc LRMs" from around May 2013 (when PGI "pushed [the LRMs'] dive point too far out and have missiles dropping too steeply"); the ability to go over obstacles that the LRMs cannot get over (and perhaps their canonical immunity to AMS, as well) is balanced by decreased volume of fire (fewer projectiles per salvo vs LRM launchers of the same tonnage) and decreased raw damage output per salvo (the decrease in projectiles/salvo outstrips the increased damage per projectile) and decreased battlefield longevity per unit weight (fewer salvos per ton of ammunition vs LRM launchers of the same tonnage).

As far as additional ballistic-type weapon systems that would weigh less than the AC/2 (6.0t, plus ammo) and fit MWO's timeline, there are the Vehicular Flamer (0.5t, plus ammo), the Vehicular Grenade Launcher (0.5t, plus ammo), the Light Rifle (3.0t, plus ammo), and the Medium Rifle (5.0t, plus ammo).

[Lightfoot]

Voivode, on 06 November 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I like the OP suggestion and FupDup's. Something between the AC2 and MG needs to be in game.

The Ultra AC2.

[Statius]

Strum Wealh, on 06 November 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Indeed - Mech Mortars are missile weapons that serve as an alternative to LRMs; basically, they trade volume of fire (fewer projectiles per salvo) and raw damage output (the decrease in projectiles/salvo outstrips the increased damage per projectile) and battlefield longevity (fewer salvos per ton) for immunity to AMS.

The VGL in BT is a single-shot weapon, so PGI would have to decide how much ammo per ton it would get and what its recycle time should be, assuming they decide to implement it in the first place.
IMO, the specs for a MWO VGL would be:
Grenade Launcher

• 0.5 tons
  
• 1 critical
  
• 0.38 damage/grenade, 1 grenade per shot
  
• 0.13 heat/shot
  
• 0.25 second recycle time
  
• weapon speed: 100 m/s
  
• 1000 shots per ton of ammo
  
• maximum range of 90 meters

The damage/shot and recycle time together give it a ~50% DPS increase over the MG (to ~1.50 DPS) & it has the same weapon speed as the MG, but it has a shorter maximum range (3x the TT max range) and it runs hotter than the MG (~0.50 HPS) and has 50% less ammo per ton than the MG (the proposed ammo per ton assumes a 1 kg (~2.2 lbs) anti-vehicle grenade) and it self-detonates at its maximum range (like missiles).

IMO, this is enough to make the VGL a viable alternative to the MG without becoming a replacement for the MG.

Then there are the Rifles, which serve as cheap alternatives to the ACs.

• Light Rifle: 3 tons, 1 critical, 3 damage/shot, 1 heat/shot, 18 shots per ton of ammo, range of 360 meters
  
• Medium Rifle: 5 tons, 2 criticals, 6 damage/shot, 2 heat/shot, 9 shots per ton of ammo, range of 450 meters
  
• Heavy Rifle: 8 tons, 3 criticals, 9 damage/shot, 4 heat/shot, 6 shots per ton of ammo, range of 540 meters

The Rifles technically exist at this point in the timeline (though, they are rare within the Inner Sphere due to being considered generally obsolete).


However, the canonical BT rules call for the Rifles to subtract 3 units from their damage/shot when used against anything that isn't infantry or civilian vehicles (which lowers the Rifles' damage to 0, 3, and 6, respectively), and they cannot make use of the ACs' special munitions.

IMO, PGI could change the damage reduction to a 50% reduction rather than going by number of damage points & give them the same recycle time as the same-step AC (with LR = AC/2, MR = AC/5, and HR = AC/10) & give them the same weapon speed as the reverse-step AC if they were to implement the Rifles. What it would look like then is:
Light Rifle

• 3 tons
  
• 1 critical
  
• 1.5 damage/shot
  
• 1 heat/shot
  
• 0.52 second recycle time
  
• weapon speed: 900 m/s
  
• 27 shots per ton of ammo
  
• optimal range of 360 meters
  
• maximum range of 1080 meters

Medium Rifle

• 5 tons
  
• 2 critical
  
• 3 damage/shot
  
• 2 heat/shot
  
• 1.50 second recycle time
  
• weapon speed: 1100 m/s
  
• 14 shots per ton of ammo
  
• optimal range of 450 meters
  
• maximum range of 1350 meters

Heavy Rifle

• 8 tons
  
• 3 critical
  
• 4.5 damage/shot
  
• 4 heat/shot
  
• 2.5 second recycle time
  
• weapon speed: 1300 m/s
  
• 9 shots per ton of ammo
  
• optimal range of 540 meters
  
• maximum range of 1620 meters

Thoughts?

I think this is the way to go. It fills the gap nicely while not simply making smaller AC's. It makes them a viable alternative even for larger mechs, although I think the ammunition could be bumped up just a little bit more.

[MonkeyCheese]

Statius, on 07 November 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

I think this is the way to go. It fills the gap nicely while not simply making smaller AC's. It makes them a viable alternative even for larger mechs, although I think the ammunition could be bumped up just a little bit more.

I agree its perfect, but this is all dreams. I dont see pgi bringing out in any new weapons any time soon, even if the basic weapon mechanics are already in place.

[Trauglodyte]

Strum Wealh, on 07 November 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

As far as additional ballistic-type weapon systems that would weigh less than the AC/2 (6.0t, plus ammo) and fit MWO's timeline, there are the Vehicular Flamer (0.5t, plus ammo), the Vehicular Grenade Launcher (0.5t, plus ammo), the Light Rifle (3.0t, plus ammo), and the Medium Rifle (5.0t, plus ammo).

The problem with the Rifle line of weapons is that they don't actually do damage to mechs. Yes, they'd provide a lighter ballistic weapon but they don't provide a weapon to be used against mechs. Now, PGI could ignore that and just add them and I'd have no issue with it (some people might but whatever). Personally, as a former 11Charlie, I like the idea of the mortar. Is it too LRM like? Yeah but I can live with that.

[Svensken]

General Godmode, on 07 November 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

What I love about this game is it tries well at keeping everything cannon. It makes it seem more legit and real. I love that about this game hands down. If they start mixing other {Scrap} and try it out here it will be the last day I log in. I love mechwarrior online. NOT battle tech or what have you.

Good idea yea, just not here no!

then you should have stoped playing a long time ago as the devs mutilated the MG and turned into some non cannon BS

Edited by Svensken, 08 November 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Tombstoner]

BlackDeathLegion, on 06 November 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

After searching @ http://www.sarna.net...ite_ref-MT_10-1

I started thinking about what PGI could use from the Battletech lore and ADD to the Ballistics in MWO whilst following the timeline of 3050.

Machine Guns, or AC/2?

What about a Mech RPG (Grenade Launcher) ???

*Grenade Launcher: Fires 1 rocket propelled grenade, like an SRM toward target Mech!

Weight: 0.5 tons (maybe even make it 1 ton?)
Crit: 1 slot
Ammo: 20 shots p/ton, 1 crit p/ton
Heat: 1
Dmg: 2
Range: 200meters / 600meters MAX
Recycle time: 1.5 secs?
projectile speed: 1,100?

Discuss....

just take a med laser.... personally if the grenade splashed black goo i'd use that to cover the cockpit and blind the pilot.
if its camera based then jsut cover them and your blind.

[MadCat02]

BlackDeathLegion, on 06 November 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

After searching @ http://www.sarna.net...ite_ref-MT_10-1

I started thinking about what PGI could use from the Battletech lore and ADD to the Ballistics in MWO whilst following the timeline of 3050.

Machine Guns, or AC/2?

What about a Mech RPG (Grenade Launcher) ???

*Grenade Launcher: Fires 1 rocket propelled grenade, like an SRM toward target Mech!

Weight: 0.5 tons (maybe even make it 1 ton?)
Crit: 1 slot
Ammo: 20 shots p/ton, 1 crit p/ton
Heat: 1
Dmg: 2
Range: 200meters / 600meters MAX
Recycle time: 1.5 secs?
projectile speed: 1,100?

Discuss....

There are RPGs in Battetech lore . I think some RPG in mechwarrior 4 did 27 damage per shoot XD.

I belive its a Clan tech though thats why we don't have it yet .

Edited by MadCat02, 09 November 2013 - 11:45 AM.