388 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

strikebrch, on 12 November 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

AC OP ?? LASERS BAD??.....mmmm can't see that. Playing with balanced loadouts (Energy + balistic + missiles) and still having fun.

But, but, that's not possible! That means all the "The only way to be competitive and have fun in this game is to run ACs" posts are wrong!

[R Razor]

Sandpit, on 12 November 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

But, but, that's not possible! That means all the "The only way to be competitive and have fun in this game is to run ACs" posts are wrong!

Reading isn't your strong suit is it? He said he was having fun, not that he was being competetive nor that he was winning most of his matches. Attention to detail fella, that's what you're lacking.

[Mad Strike]

R Razor, on 12 November 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Reading isn't your strong suit is it? He said he was having fun, not that he was being competetive nor that he was winning most of his matches. Attention to detail fella, that's what you're lacking.

ehmmm actually i am 1.45 W/L ratio and have between 1.41 / 2.71 K/D in stock weaponry mechs soo.....im winning and killing mostly with balistic + energy + missiles in my mechs if the hardpoints let me.

I dont make heavy modifided loadouts....dont like to do that...i beleive that each variant and their respective weaponry are there for a specific playstyle and purpose so the only thing i do is Upgrade my chassis (endo-ferro---double heat sinks--armor points--artemis) and do the best i can with it.

My 3 best stock weapons mechs i have are my boars head k/d 2.64 , Locust 1V k/d 2.71
and Ilya Muromets k/d 1.62.

I find Battlemasters interesting too 1G - 1D - 1S 1.67 , 1.63 and 1.85 respectively ; being the 1S the ONLY modified weapons battlemech i have (4xmedium pulse lasers , 2x SSRM2 and 2x SRM6+Artemis.

Edited by strikebrch, 12 November 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[R Razor]

strikebrch, on 12 November 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

ehmmm actually i am 1.45 W/L ratio and have between 1.41 / 2.71 K/D in stock weaponry mechs soo.....im winning and killing mostly with balistic + energy + missiles in my mechs if the hardpoints let me.

Drop into a competetive 12 v 12 and let me know how your non-optimized builds fare.

Not busting your stones here beleive me, I hate the fact that there are so many min-max cheese balls playing this game, but at this stage of the design it's what is required if you truly want to dominate. I almost never run anything in the ballistic meta (although most of my assaults do carry an AC-20) and I manage to stay above the 1.0 win/loss and KDR ratio as well.......but I also know that some of the folks I drop with that do have the current meta ballistic builds are well above 2.0 and some are even in the 3.0 range in KDR and win/loss. It's just the way the game works at the moment.

I am relatively confident that once CW kicks off (if it ever does), unless the AC has been better balanced than it currently is, most are going to be forced into running those builds or face losing vast swathes of territory to folks that do run them.

Edited by R Razor, 12 November 2013 - 06:02 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I hate the fact that there are so many min-max cheese balls playing this game

Min-maxers arnt the problem. Min-maxers find imbalances in the system and exploit them. But ultimately its the fact those imbalances exist in the first place thats the problem.

[Mad Strike]

R Razor, on 12 November 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Drop into a competetive 12 v 12 and let me know how your non-optimized builds fare.

Not busting your stones here beleive me, I hate the fact that there are so many min-max cheese balls playing this game, but at this stage of the design it's what is required if you truly want to dominate. I almost never run anything in the ballistic meta (although most of my assaults do carry an AC-20) and I manage to stay above the 1.0 win/loss and KDR ratio as well.......but I also know that some of the folks I drop with that do have the current meta ballistic builds are well above 2.0 and some are even in the 3.0 range in KDR and win/loss. It's just the way the game works at the moment.

I am relatively confident that once CW kicks off (if it ever does), unless the AC has been better balanced than it currently is, most are going to be forced into running those builds or face losing vast swathes of territory to folks that do run them.

I do 12 vs 12 dude (HHOD , Carrion Crows , Triumvirate Guards , Black Crusaders , NGNG and Ars Clan) so don't come with that "and let me know how your non-optimized builds fare" **** ok ? They work and those 2.0 ratios are going to be reset so pfff dont care about that part. Thing is that theres a lot of people having fun with this and AC do point 2 point damage rely on ammo isn't that the way they should work ?

Edited by strikebrch, 12 November 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[R Razor]

strikebrch, on 12 November 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

I do 12 vs 12 dude so don't come with that "and let me know how your non-optimized builds fare" **** ok ? They work and those 2.0 ratios are going to be reset so pfff dont care about that part.

Sure you do.

[R Razor]

Khobai, on 12 November 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Min-maxers arnt the problem. Min-maxers find imbalances in the system and exploit them. But ultimately its the fact those imbalances exist in the first place thats the problem.

Don't disagree at all, it's the nature of the beast. At the end of the day though, the discussion is about the plethora of AC builds and you only see those because folks realize that's what wins games.

Anectodotal evidence such as "I use lasers and have a KDR or x.x" are nothing more than red herrings. Where there's smoke there's fire, and where there are enough folks making statements regarding the AC issue there is very likely an issue.

Edited by R Razor, 12 November 2013 - 06:23 PM.

[Mad Strike]

Sandpit, on 12 November 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

But, but, that's not possible! That means all the "The only way to be competitive and have fun in this game is to run ACs" posts are wrong!

We all know that theres a lot of post out there based on whinnig. Only thing i consider is Hit Detection and adapt my playstile (not weapons) for the current meta.

[Mad Strike]

R Razor, on 12 November 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

Sure you do.

pffff XD really?. Thats your answer?.

Just try to believe that some people can have fun and win with ....how you call it?........non-optimized buids...just...try

I'll add you to my friends list on MWO have a couple of matches and see if im wrong. Its more practical than posting and posting on the forum dont you agree ?

Edited by strikebrch, 12 November 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[The Justicar]

Tycho von Gagern, on 12 November 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Ok, so specifically, what builds are giving you problems? Could you share an AC2/5 build that you can't beat?

Where did I say they can't be beat? I said they were overpowered, and I think I've proven my comments several times over in this thread.

[Whatzituyah]

technically this is true they are over powered because its instant damage for Auto-Cannons but not lasers but the penalty could be how much it weighs they had to sacrifice something to use them.

[YueFei]

Thorqemada, on 12 November 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

Anything Medium or Bigger has no Advantage from using Speed bcs Size - almost impossible to miss them.
And when you stick your nose out of cover it gets shot 1/10 of a second later...

The fastest Light, the Locust - i have witnessed as Spectator a match at Alpine where an enemy AC2 Mech shot a Locust from long range and despite it moving most erratically not a single round missed.
Every half a second the "Flowers of Impact" blossomed...til it was dead.

Speed is only good if the Lagshield works...and in Pugs to overcome the coordination issues.

It's not about using speed to dodge shots. It's about using speed to deny the other guy the sustained barrage he wants to fully take advantage of his superior sustained DPS. How hard is it to understand this? If you're standing behind a piece of cover, and he comes barreling down on you, you peek out and shoot once, he hits you once, and then you use your speed to prevent him from rolling over the hill you're using for cover and kicking your teeth in. You use your speed to pull back to another piece of cover, you relocate, try to be unpredictable, and then when you spot each other again, you've already cooled back down. Rinse and repeat. If he's got rapid-fire ACs, you deny him the ability to use that rapid-fire, and wear him down with larger strikes.

If he manages to isolate you and gain a vantage point on you that let's him get a sustained barrage on you, and you don't recognize that you're at a disadvantage and continue shooting back until you overheat, you deserve to lose.

That Locust's mistake was in exposing himself for such a long time. He gambled on the enemy lacking marksmanship and it didn't pay off. Hey, you pays your money, you takes your chances. Next time he should try crossing in a place that isn't covered by an enemy's guns.

Edited by YueFei, 12 November 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[Nebuchadnezzar2]

I'm thinking of giving those energy fanatics their old alpha so they can stop crying
Let most people bring their energy alpha builds .... So that i can reign with my balistics

On more serious note for me it is more balanced when energy boat is the alpha king and AC boat is the dps king

[GalaxyBluestar]

YueFei, on 12 November 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

It's not about using speed to dodge shots. It's about using speed to deny the other guy the sustained barrage he wants to fully take advantage of his superior sustained DPS. How hard is it to understand this? If you're standing behind a piece of cover, and he comes barreling down on you, you peek out and shoot once, he hits you once, and then you use your speed to prevent him from rolling over the hill you're using for cover and kicking your teeth in.

hense the stalker laser boat is extremely difficult to use as the chassis counters the ideal gameplay, even with 65kph under yourbelt most mechs can still outrun you.

anyways i'm begining to doubt my validations, yes the heatmanagment learning curve and the damage over time ratio being greater is why people are fileding more ac's but i'm also thinking that faster weapons counter the latency which plays against a lot of things but shouldn't be a part of the weapons balance... directly anyways. however it does scare the judgement and the resulting behavior leads to shifts in meta like the one percieved at the moment.

for example, the gauss charge is fine hold when target is found let go when you're cursor is lined up. simple stuff however how's the damage output to someone suffereing lag?



perfect hit sparks flying on that BM yeah gauss is fine L2p etc.

but if this happens too often



and this becomes a trend i could easily percieve the gauss as being weak and could start a pgi you've ruined the gauss thread. BTW the BM has moved 9M in 6 seconds so he's a sitting duck for me to shoot. you can see the end of the sparks as my shot hits but no damage even a target like this has to be lead.

edit: yes that's a laser boat BM... he lost against mr can't hit for system screwups and a hunchi.

this has been the problem for game balance since day 1, lots of conflicting reports are made due to this hit detection issue.

i get the feeling my ping and/or rig isn't entittled to gameplay balance anymore, these experiences screw the validation although i still see a lot of ac's on the field. but like i said i think it's because people don't like heat managment in general and more frontloading shots means you could proberbly land more damage overcoming lag issues.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 12 November 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

The Justicar, on 12 November 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Where did I say they can't be beat? I said they were overpowered, and I think I've proven my comments several times over in this thread.

OK... can you share a build that you think is OP? I'd just like to get something specific to look at so people can offer constructive comments.

[Joseph Mallan]

R Razor, on 12 November 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Drop into a competetive 12 v 12 and let me know how your non-optimized builds fare.

Not busting your stones here beleive me, I hate the fact that there are so many min-max cheese balls playing this game, but at this stage of the design it's what is required if you truly want to dominate. I almost never run anything in the ballistic meta (although most of my assaults do carry an AC-20) and I manage to stay above the 1.0 win/loss and KDR ratio as well.......but I also know that some of the folks I drop with that do have the current meta ballistic builds are well above 2.0 and some are even in the 3.0 range in KDR and win/loss. It's just the way the game works at the moment.

I am relatively confident that once CW kicks off (if it ever does), unless the AC has been better balanced than it currently is, most are going to be forced into running those builds or face losing vast swathes of territory to folks that do run them.

The problem isn't that ACs are to powerful its that other weapons are to weak. An AC10 is equal in damage to a PPC on TT. In one 10 second turn they do the same amount of damage. Here an AC10 does 40 damage and a PPC does 20 in a 10 second turn. Make PPCs equal to an AC10 not the other way around. I am here to kick ash and chew Bubblegum. I Can't properly kick ash if I am left with feather dusters and wet beach towels.

[Sandpit]

R Razor, on 12 November 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Drop into a competetive 12 v 12 and let me know how your non-optimized builds fare.

Why? Why would anyone need to drop into a 12man? Is there somethign goin on in 12man that is different in the rest of the game? Is there some sort of magic kool-aid? Oh, is it because it's "competitive"? You act like nobody who plays outside of 12man drops has any kind of game influence. Do you somehow think there's going to be a magical section of the game in CW where you'll have special abilities to influence things where the rest of the players won't?

Get off your high horse. You flat out got told he played "competitively" and then just dismissed him. "Well you should play like this and do it"
"I do"
"Nuh uh!"
"Ok...."

[R Razor]

Sandpit, on 13 November 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Why? Why would anyone need to drop into a 12man? Is there somethign goin on in 12man that is different in the rest of the game? Is there some sort of magic kool-aid? Oh, is it because it's "competitive"? You act like nobody who plays outside of 12man drops has any kind of game influence. Do you somehow think there's going to be a magical section of the game in CW where you'll have special abilities to influence things where the rest of the players won't?

Get off your high horse. You flat out got told he played "competitively" and then just dismissed him. "Well you should play like this and do it"
"I do"
"Nuh uh!"
"Ok...."

I don't play competetive 12 man drops genius, but I know enough people that do to know what they see and run in them. I'm not on a high horse, in fact I have exactly 2 mechs that has more than 1 AC on them..........that doesn't change the fact that to be competetive in that environment you will be forced to run an AC build thanks to the current meta. I realize you might have a hard time comprehending what I'm saying but I honestly can't see any way to "dumb it down" any more than I already have.

As the poster above me stated, 40 vs 20 damage in the same time frame from what are supposed to be simularly balanced weapons. Chew on that for a bit and get back to me.

[Joseph Mallan]

R Razor, on 12 November 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Drop into a competetive 12 v 12 and let me know how your non-optimized builds fare.

Not busting your stones here beleive me, I hate the fact that there are so many min-max cheese balls playing this game, but at this stage of the design it's what is required if you truly want to dominate. I almost never run anything in the ballistic meta (although most of my assaults do carry an AC-20) and I manage to stay above the 1.0 win/loss and KDR ratio as well.......but I also know that some of the folks I drop with that do have the current meta ballistic builds are well above 2.0 and some are even in the 3.0 range in KDR and win/loss. It's just the way the game works at the moment.

I am relatively confident that once CW kicks off (if it ever does), unless the AC has been better balanced than it currently is, most are going to be forced into running those builds or face losing vast swathes of territory to folks that do run them.

In 12 mans I get roughly 1.3 kills per match, 3-7 Assists, an between 100-700 damage. Pretty much the same as I do in PUGs.
driving this or this.