8 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

Does anyone know of a mouse that also has some features of a joystick? I want the mouse movement and functionality but with stick buttons.

Think of a mouse base with an short angled handle with the thumb buttons (R/L with scroll wheel in between) and a couple trigger buttons.

[XphR]

Ive been considering the posts from the SimPits and LocNars posts on controls.. and I feel somewhere something was mentioned about dissecting an optical mouse. Mounting the optics looking down from the stick into a gridded hemisphere. I really cant stop thinking about the possibilities of this type of build.

My first concern is a way to regain center (quickly) if it is lost. I dont know if triggering the "lifted mouse" sensor with a momentary would be the way to go, or having a physical blinder on the lens during recenter.

Barring that and a few other control inputs (rudders for turning and a physical linear throttle), I think a wireless M705 (its got insane battery life) may be worth me hacking up into a Moystick and SimPit here I come(one day)!

[Redshift2k5]

It slides around like a mouse and has trigger buttons as well as thumb buttons. No hats, though.

[XphR]

Ohh mehr gherhd!
I shall keep this design in mind when making a throttle! As it stands.. I would give it a shot (>_<) as an everyday mouse.

Edited by XphR, 06 November 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[sneeking]

I want to run legs on my Logitech freedom stick in left hand and torso mouse in right hand with keyboard in the middle, so far mwo has resisted my attempts to map all this out.

Edited by sneeking, 07 November 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Redshift2k5, on 06 November 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

It slides around like a mouse and has trigger buttons as well as thumb buttons. No hats, though.

Very interesting though the "boot" design is a turn off and seems to be bulky and unwieldy. Something more like this:

Edited by cdlord, 07 November 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Something like this:
http://vr-zone.com/a...tick/18074.html
http://www.aliexpres...1299951261.html
http://www.dvice.com...safetype_mo.php

The opposite of this:
http://spacemice.wdf...ry/Cyberman.jpg

[Loc Nar]

I had another long winded post that got backpage deleted and lost (happens all too often...) because there is no auto-save feature on this forum for composing posts. > This is an interesting thread though and it desrves a bump if nothing else. Projects like this is how better controllers are born.

I can't recreate my post that got lost, but want to throw out a few things and provide a few links in case you haven't seen my own setup, which is also falls squarely into the category of 'buttons of a stick and functions of a mouse', but in a very different mechanical way, but have more in common with each other than either do with a regular joystick and using either one in practice would be pretty similar. Yours would freely move in x/y cartesian where mine pivots in fixed location, but both manipulate target position directly with displacements.

First, what you are drawing/describing would actually be a very easy mod using off-shelf components and what I consider pretty basic model building skills to frankenstien them together. In addition to the examples of 'vertical mice' here and I've seen elsewhere, some pretty neat almost-made variations of this and what to me is more intriguing, where the input device is trapped on an x/y linear slides and mechanically damped. Another one that comes to mind is essentially a stylus on a miniature x/y linear rail above an absolute trackpad.

XphR astutely mentioned something I myself mentioned a while back (wow, you really read this stuff!) that I was considering just using the optical sensor/guts of a mouse as the sensor for my joystick, but in that case it would have been describing the same trapped range of motion and have it's own little compound curved little section of 'mousepad' instead of Hall pot displacement being converted into absolute mouse emulated inputs. In the case of the mouse sensor, it would be using actual mouse inputs and would be a perfect 'missing link' between what I have currently and what you are shooting for. Equally astutely the point of drift/losing center is brought up, but this is a case where I need to give PGI a hand. By providing the 'c' centering function, that problem already has a solution and using the mouse's guts this way actually still might be a better solution than what I'm currently doing. A mouse uses a surprisingly small amount of real estate for MWO, even at low dpi..

I constructed a gimbal for my Cougar that is a complete departure from a flightstick arrangement and it's optimized for the specific task of positioning rather than vectoring. As such, it moves in pitch/yaw +/-15 deg and +/-45deg and has no center detente or spring centering, instead relying on highly damped friction rubs that allow me to freely move it at any spot along it's travel with butter smooth consistent mechanical resistance from stop to stop and it will firmly stay in whatever position it is left in, and it uses absolute inputs. In practice, the torso tracks/mimicks the position of the stick and follows it quite precisely. It's very natural to adapt to, although can feel pretty twitchy when new to it, making it I'd estimate it's >90% as accurate as a mouse for precision on aim, but 100% more immersing and much better for convenience, ergonomics, and situational awareness.

Whether that device the one you describe, or even my own stick however they all have a common denominator that makes them viable for aim in MWO, and that is they are dedicated zero-order positioning devices, meaning displacements on them directly manipulate target position, in contrast to a regular joystick/game controller/etc that generates velocity/direction inputs called first-order control, which is the underlying reason why regular sticks are 'hard mode' at best. A first-order controller is a fish out of water in a zero-order positioning environment like reticule aim in MWO, a pointing task identical to moving a cursor in a browser and can only be efficiently manipulated with a controller made for this type of control, which a mouse is the best example of, but by no means the only representative of their family.

While not necessary to understand for your immediate goal/project, it's useful information applicable to a host of things that require human inputs so I recommend at least skimming the writeup I did on controls a while back called Controls Demystified(?) where I attempt to explain control order better, which is the essence of all controls and is basically the naming convention used to identify axes by the specific behaviors that define them from each other.

I only focus on talking about zero-order and first-order to keep it simple and relevant to gaming/simming subjects although those do get into second-order as well.

Quick analogy time: Here's a quick thought exercise to establish a loose relation between orders of control. Imagine playing a game of chess:

zero-order control -using your hand to directly move the piece to its new square
first-order control -strap the piece to a tiny RC car and drive it its new square
second-order control -use a robotic arm to operate the controller driving the RC car with your piece on it to drive it to the new square
third-order control -use a robotic arm to control the robotic arm being used to operate the controller driving the RC car with the piece on it to the new square
fourth-order control -use a robotic arm to control the robotic arm to... and so on.

Why does it matter? Imagine instead of chess it were simply a race against your opponent -first one to the new square wins! Moving your reticule in MWO is such a race... and first one to put the crosshairs where they want usually does win.

[CDLord HHGD]

Loc Nar, on 09 November 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wall of good information.

So yeah, I'd guess I'm looking for a zero-order controller that moves like a mouse but repositions the buttons to be more like a joystick with enough variation to be ergonomically viable. Unfortunately I am unable to create such a monstrosity. Having no talent I am relegated to purchasing someone else's.

Chances are I'll probably buy a more standard gaming mouse, been eyeballing the logitech one with the 12 buttons on the thumb side. If I found something close to what I imagine, I'd buy it though (of course, reasonable price would be a consideration).