15 replies to this topic

[Narfed]

Say someone is interested in joining a clan to add some RP feel to their games and they like the honor and japanese flavor of house Kurita. In the face of inevitable defeat would we gather around and overheat ourselves in a ritual suicide? I think that would be fun. Not sure if that is in the lore or not or if any clans would be interested. Thoughts?

[unFearing]

I know nothing of lore and how it works, but I would imagine that the "code of honor" would be more of fighting to the death (and perhaps intentionally dying from overheating) rather than killing yourself in the face of inevitable defeat. Who wouldn't want to be granted with the chance to take down as many 'mechs as possible?

Anyways, maybe overheating in a little circle with your Kuritan friends is nice if you don't want to be for-sure destroyed and have your body possibly mutilated (again I know nothing of lore). Much more fun killing as many of them baddies as possible though, and then killing yourself to deny them the kill (for fighting you so (possibly) dishonorably, you put up your best fight but deny the satisfying taste of extinguishing your existence).

Some RP players might be better sources.

[Zolaz]

Snakes practice belly slitting ... little known difference.

[Most Twisted]

There actually is lore regarding ritual suicide/disembowelment or "Seppuku" as atonement for major failures and loss of honor. I believe the right to perform it had to be requested and accepted by the coordinator.

It's the culmination of a major plotline explaining the "bad" relationship between Wolfs Dragoons and the Draconis Combine. Minobu Tetsuhara (sic?) performed Seppuku at the end of the novel "Wolves on the Border" to atone his perceived failure in a stacked battle against Jaime Wolf.

Jaime served as his second during the ritual and shot him in the head after the second, crossway cut before he could display pain and therefore dishonor himself again.

"Wolves on the Border" was one of the better novels by the way.

As far as group overheating in game. . . . Not this Drac

/ultrageek mode

I'm off to look for a actual life now that I realized I typed that from memory using no reference material

Edited by Most Twisted, 06 November 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[CrashieJ]

the Japanese Tradition is chopped into pieces when it comes to both Battletech Material (depending on the author).

sometimes it gets promoted fairly, most of the time it doesn't.

Seppuku is a thing in Battletech as it tries to give the overall image of "honorable space barbarians" (again, depending on the author)

RP'ers may engage in it, but as with Most Twisted;

Most Twisted, on 06 November 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

As far as group overheating in game. . . . Not this Drac

[Kyone Akashi]

"The proper business of the warrior is death. The warrior cannot enter a contest with any thoughts of his own survival. His only concern must be to destroy the enemy, or else to die fighting."
- Excerpt from the Dictum Honorium, House Kurita sourcebook

I humbly submit that intentional self-destruct is as dishonorable as surrender, as it denies the warrior the opportunity to inflict further damage upon an enemy of the Combine, and denies the enemy a honorable battle. The only permissible exception to this is if the self-destruct would result in extensive damage to the enemy force, either militarily or logistically, such as by affixing high yield explosives to an expendable, perhaps damaged machine to trigger a catastrophic explosion within the perimeter of an enemy base.

If there is a reason for ritual suicide, be it due to a personal dishonor or in protest of one's lord, proper tradition and decorum for seppuku should be maintained. If it was the property of the state, the warrior's BattleMech should remain with the unit until recalled by the Procurement Department. If the BattleMech was the warrior's own, he or she should make the necessary arrangements for inheritance with their family before the beginning of the ceremony.


On a sidenote, "Wolves on the Border" was indeed an excellent novel - Robert N. Charrette has written some of the best novels about House Kurita, and displayed a good hand at portraying the very subtle but very important intricacies of Combine culture. I vividly remember Minobu correctly interpreting the low quality and missing clasps on his new rank insignia as a message that his post was temporary, his promotion not a "real" one, and that his superiors wanted to make sure he knows it. It is these details and the hidden meanings that, along with the Combine's appreciation for art and tradition, have always fascinated me about this faction, and few authors seem capable of "grasping" it quite in the way as Charrette.

[Narfed]

Thanks for the replies, very enlightening!

[ice trey]

While I think that the Mechwarriors of the DCMS would definitely commit seppuku in the event that they were doomed to failure and be unable to do their liege lords' bidding, I think that they would not do so by overheating their mechs. Mech overheating would be a very slow and painful way to go, like putting yourself inside of an oven at 400 degrees.

Instead, I think they would first be concerned with bringing the 'mechs back to their master, and THEN committing seppuku the old fashioned way. Remember the old Battletech Creedo: "Life is cheap, Battlemechs aren't". Their liege lord would probably see it as a waste of potential resources if they committed suicide in their 'mechs for any reason other than preventing them from getting into enemy hands.

...and even then, They'd probably do something along the lines of a Banzai charge instead.

[dal10]

gavilatius, on 06 November 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

the Japanese Tradition is chopped into pieces when it comes to both Battletech Material (depending on the author).

sometimes it gets promoted fairly, most of the time it doesn't.

Seppuku is a thing in Battletech as it tries to give the overall image of "honorable space barbarians" (again, depending on the author)

RP'ers may engage in it, but as with Most Twisted;

the entirety of the inner sphere is space barbarians. you guys are just the japanese ones.

[Lord Ikka]

You also have to remember that Theodore Kurita's reforms has been slowly changing the DCMS, and that seppuku is not nearly as common as it was before. Now it is for major failures, rather than simply losing a battle. Retreat is no longer a reason for seppuku, as we have lost too many good commanders for perceived cowardice that is actually good tactics.

[dal10]

and the bad ones lost all of their men to suicide charges, but kept their honor.

[Kyone Akashi]

Lord Ikka, on 10 November 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Retreat is no longer a reason for seppuku, as we have lost too many good commanders for perceived cowardice that is actually good tactics.

Indeed. I believe the saying is that the warrior must honour their obligation to the Combine and continue fighting for their lord on another day, rather than to throw away their life and talent due to a simple setback. Likewise, commanders are expected to take good care of the men, women and materiel given into their care.

Of course, a dictum like this remains a matter of interpretation. The Kanrei cannot ignore tradition, but he can refine it. The DCMS Field Manual mentions how Theodore-sama's doctrines have made the commanders' duties more difficult, for they are expected to put an end to the waste of warrior talent whilst simultaneously enforcing stricter punishment for actual infraction and failure, the latter of which were implemented to remove any concern that the Combine's warrior class might be "growing soft".

[dal10]

and this is what happens when you go medieval in the 31st century.

[Jakob Knight]

I think it is important to remember that seppuku is a personal atonement for dishonor, and not something done 'on the fly'. A commander might decide to do this, but only after he/she had failed in such a way that no other means of atonement was possible and after facing their superiors to obtain acceptance that their act would be deemed proper compensation. A commander also could not order his/her men to commit seppuku, even if they could order them on a suicide charge, as the commander is the one who is responsible for the outcome of the mission (note that the Coordinator 'inviting onwards' a subordinant is simply giving the failed subordinant the option of commiting seppuku instead of just being shot by a firing squad and having their family live in disgrace at their actions).

In the case of a battle, no commander would commit themselves to such an action prior to combat because they would be, in essence, be acting out of cowardice and avoiding their duty because they have not even fought the battle before declaring themselves failures. If a battle became unwinable, a Kurita warrior would consider if honorable surrender would better serve his/her master's interests and, if surrender was deemed undesirable to their master's interests or impossible, would instead continue to pursue their mission to the death (note this mission may not be to inflict as much damage on the enemy as possible).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 18 November 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Probably in a failed 12 v 12 matchup where they wanted to play against a different team. They would commit Seppuku out of shame due to landing on the wrong planet during the invasion.

Personally if this happens to us, then we prefere the redcoat approach. Walking in a stright line (if possible) towards the enemy... everyone needs to walk at aproximately the same speed of the slowest mech (including the light mechs of course).

[Goldfinger]

Kyone Akashi, on 06 November 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

On a sidenote, "Wolves on the Border" was indeed an excellent novel - Robert N. Charrette has written some of the best novels about House Kurita, and displayed a good hand at portraying the very subtle but very important intricacies of Combine culture. I vividly remember Minobu correctly interpreting the low quality and missing clasps on his new rank insignia as a message that his post was temporary, his promotion not a "real" one, and that his superiors wanted to make sure he knows it. It is these details and the hidden meanings that, along with the Combine's appreciation for art and tradition, have always fascinated me about this faction, and few authors seem capable of "grasping" it quite in the way as Charrette.

Indeed an excellent book. And though it has been a few years I remember that part particularly. The cheap, easily chipped enamel on the newly presented rank insignia. The depth of culture has always been a draw for House Kurita. Things like the Dictum Honorium, the Five Pillars, and the yellow bird.