38 replies to this topic

[Roadbeer]

Heffay, on 08 November 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Didn't he also say he didn't have the budget to do that?

There are a number of things in that presentation that PGI managed to do right in the first place (monetization issues specifically), and even releasing a minimally viable product can be recovered from. CW is the first step in the improvement of the production model. Beyond that... MWO doesn't have levels, so I'm curious as to where expansion packs can come into play. Clan launch can probably be made a reasonable expansion pack. And there are enough events in lore to use as a basis to expanding gameplay as well, but... how? It's a tricky (and expensive) question. Single player campaign?

New modes aren't really *that* big of a change in the production process, since it's still the same 12v12. So beyond single player mode and community warfare, what other changes can they make to get legitimate expansions?

He said he didn't have a marketing budget, where he was getting at was it would have been better that instead of the production costs associated with creating a new Civ, he should have gone back and added another 10 levels on an existing Civ. IMO, he should have done both, but staggered... 10 new levels on Greeks, release Celts, 10 new levels on Egyptians, release Norse, etc... this would have spread out the old AND the new, and prolonged the End Game wall.
Kind of the way that MWO does it with 3 new mechs to each map, the "hold up" on content here is the actual creation of map assets, once that's in place, as they've said, churning out maps will become quicker and cheaper. So, IMO, that they're doing right.
He also lamented that there wasn't a skirmish mode in place at launch, here, that's ALL we have, so we're 'good' on that. y'all can debate the merits of that, but in it's most basic form, it's here.

I disagree on your point about modes... new modes are REALLY going to extend the lifespan of the game, and more than just DM/TDM that the myopic are crying for. But those are also coming soon^tm. After CW, all that is left is content and modes, how PGI handles and monetizes that will determine its future success.

The real thing that struck a chord with me in the presentation was his lamenting on the ability to reach out to his customers, and this is where PGI has been, and needs to continue, improving.

[Heffay]

Roadbeer, on 08 November 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I disagree on your point about modes... new modes are REALLY going to extend the lifespan of the game, and more than just DM/TDM that the myopic are crying for. But those are also coming soon^tm. After CW, all that is left is content and modes, how PGI handles and monetizes that will determine its future success.

I guess it depends on the modes. Attack/defend didn't really add that much to WoT; it was interesting the first few dozen times but eventually it was just one more random mode that you got dropped into. However, I'm very interested in seeing the 3 phase matches, where you're dropped into a set of 3 scrimmages. My guess is that it will have to be part of CW, but I can see how it could work into PuG matches; where if someone drops early they lose on the end of round and end of match rewards, but are filled in with other PuGs. Like joining an instance in WoW that is half done.

Quote

The real thing that struck a chord with me in the presentation was his lamenting on the ability to reach out to his customers, and this is where PGI has been, and needs to continue, improving.

Look at all the goodwill they generated when they released the CW phase 1 information for the merc corp. They could be doling that info out into the parched mouths of the customers who are dying for a drop of information on what's coming and generate a ton of good will. They really should be better about releasing info like that (without a timeline, because... you know... the playerbase here.. ).

[Roadbeer]

Heffay, on 08 November 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Look at all the goodwill they generated when they released the CW phase 1 information for the merc corp. They could be doling that info out into the parched mouths of the customers who are dying for a drop of information on what's coming and generate a ton of good will. They really should be better about releasing info like that (without a timeline, because... you know... the playerbase here.. ).

Agreed, I was *JUST* starting to revert back to the angst I had when the monetization of CW was "announced/misquoted" and the whole 3PV thing... once I saw 3PV wasn't that big of a deal, I went neutral, but their prolific use of Twitter and apparent avoidance of the Forums aside from the laughable AtDs was growing thin.

The CW announcement was a breath of fresh air, but that level of communication needs to be accelerated, not just capitalized on while becoming complaisant again. "That shut them up, back to work". IMO, once they see traffic in a thread like that die down, MAKE A NEW ONE. we've now finished that bit of candy, can we have another?

[Adridos]

Sougard, on 08 November 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

Sister thread on Mechwarrior Tactics forums. It has a reply from an IGP member.

https://www.mwtactic...-the-wrong-way/

... Posting simply as someone who has been part of the fanbase, not as a direct IGP employee.

As far as AoE:O goes, it was a demo of a ridiculously overpriced game advertised as F2P, thus it took all the stigma that a F2P game has and got nothing good from it in return. When saving the game, they've made it more F2P than was possible and ended up getting cancelled. It's for the good that the game went under, but at least the name of the franchise wasn't damaged (as opposed to, say, Tri...b...e..s: Ascend [which is Tribes in too few aspects and was even worse when we got to see it first and had to constantly "fire at the devs" to force them to back up on a lot of crappy designs of theirs]).

[QuantumButler]

This video is quite chilling, you could literally just find and replace all instances of "age of empires online" with "MWO" and it would ring just as true.

[Heffay]

QuantumButler, on 09 November 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

This video is quite chilling, you could literally just find and replace all instances of "age of empires online" with "MWO" and it would ring just as true.

There are a number of places where MWO started off right. A lot of them in fact. , no upper limit, etc. However, the big takeaway is expansion packs. New things for people to do. CW is desperately needed.

[Vassago Rain]

Heffay, on 12 November 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

There are a number of places where MWO started off right. A lot of them in fact. , no upper limit, etc. However, the big takeaway is expansion packs. New things for people to do. CW is desperately needed.

There won't be anyone left here if they don't get CW out before the year's over.

[dal10]

they really should have had it out at launch like was initially promised. that is probably going to screw them in the long run.

[MustrumRidcully]

Well, it seems to me a bit as if PGi might not be doing as much wrong as we feared.

AOE Online apparently didn't have a skirmish mode - MW:O is nothing but that. While it's not sufficient, it might be better than stating with some kind of quest-based game that always has a finish line.

I find it interesting that he notes that he thought that dropping the price on some things wasn't the best decision, it would have been better to just offer sales. I am of the opinion that PGI's prices are too high, but if he's right, they still shouldn't drop it, just make more sales. Well, they are busy doing sales, so maybe they are already getting this one right (and it's still true that the base price is too high.)

Maybe the most important aspect here is that they need to make sure that your production model and business model align up - relying on people to buy your most epxensive to build components is bad. I wonder if mechs are "cheap" enough to make? It certainly seemed Civilizations in AOE cost them a lot of time and effort - much more than M:WOs mechs, but then, this team is smaller. But 1-2 mechs per month might suffice?

---

But there are also things that look dangerous or MW:O did get wrong.
For example, he remarked that the PvP population (and we are purely PvP) had big problems with their leveling concept that felt like it was grind-to-win or pay-to-win and not much fun. The whole mech efficiency and module (and consumable) system might turn problematic here.

R&R is gone now, but its original concept that we saw in game didn't give us a way to spend time to get out of the R&R cost - if you wanted that mech again, you better had the money, and Premium (or Hero/Founder bonuses) were the best way. Not being able to sustain your mech without it could be very problematic.

The community aspect seems also important - I still find PGI not doing such a great job on it. They lack transparency and openness in many ways. And I find it interesting that the AOE team always tried to drive people back to their website and forum, and makes it difficult to find out everything about M:WO without accidentally stumbling on it on other websites. (I notice that Cryptic - to name another F2P company - does this better, too - they always have a featured news post and a Dev Announcement reporting about interviews and articles on other websites. They still give these websites exclusives and drive traffic to them, but they also ensure that the word is out there and that the game's website is the best starting point to learn about the game.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 November 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Vassago Rain, on 12 November 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

There won't be anyone left here if they don't get CW out before the year's over.

Exactly, we had patience a year ago.. the patience is long gone for most who've been throwing cash at the game over the course of it.

Fact of the matter is (for me) hit detection is buggy again. I can't top charts with horrible hit detection + bad frames for what this game is. (for awhile a few months back this game made my computer run so hard it would overheat and shut down.......... does this game developer mention that? Nope!)

^ guess that's for another thread, but still... Why is seismic sensor not fixed yet, why is spider / jenner just as buggy as ever, why does the command console still do {scrap} all, why do old mechs weapons systems not change, why hasn't pgi kept any of their deadlines I mean we were literally talking about clans being here about this time LAST YEAR and I read those topics that said (will PGI change the timeline, will clans not happen until two years from now?) I laughed at those topics but apparently I did not understand that this company wants to milk the flying {scrap} out of this game.

It's fun, the combat, but it could and should be so much better. Why am I finding more enjoyment out of going back and playing OLDER GAMES or OLDER VERSIONS and enjoying them more?
(/end frustration)

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 12 November 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Vassago Rain, on 07 November 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

>minimum viable product

Oh, thanks, that's the answer I was looking for! That seems to be how they make games these days!

[Heffay]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 12 November 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Oh, thanks, that's the answer I was looking for! That seems to be how they make games these days!

Yup. The AoEO postmortem said it's something that can be built on. We just need them to deliver.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

PGI PAY ATTENTION - Quote from Kevin Perry: "You do in general annoy your core at your own peril". Also he stated that had he to do it over again he would have focused on the core players. He also stated that transparency is a good thing.

So to review PGI has alienated most of the core in some way, and transparency is only now becoming a part of PGI's thinking. I really do hope that PGI actually watched this.

[MustrumRidcully]

Ah, so here the thread went.

[dal10]

least it isn't in katetoa. there is cake there.

[Council13]

I've just been playing since the Sept official release and I'm bored already. Kudo's to you guys who have been here for a year + through all the broken deadlines and promises. The content that the game was officially released with is extremely dissapointing considering how rich of a world the Mechwarrior universe is.

[Deathlike]

The video was excellent, although having not played that game at all, it is hard to determine how the players felt (he gave his side of the story, which was fine) to determine what the core issue was. It seems obvious however that the resource costs to create the civilizations should have been a critical factor in their pricing decision making... at least to some degree try to properly regulate the costs better. Although, it seems like they hadn't really done much with the core playerbase by expanding what they could do...

It is obvious that MWO really does fit on the same/similar trajectory that AOE has. I was reminded how the release of the PP pack led to the "highest activity ever" and although that's good, but like in the AOE video, those things became temporary. We're almost a month out from the PP's release and it's very likely hit back to what the normal (or potentially less than average) activity happens to be (although, the SH is a popular mech to debut this week). Just knowing that any addition is only a temporary boost (the Saber pack will increase activity for a period during the holidays), the wait for CW continues to limit activity. There's nothing to hold people over if we're "played the game out" like those players for AOE.

The maps AFAIK has been PGI's greatest source of costs (they've mentioned it in interviews/videos pretty often). It is unclear when they are "done" getting to that point, but I also wonder what the costs are putting together a mech. There's something inherently odd about that but even if we just accept the costs as stated, it makes me wonder if the costs make sense in the first place. It's obvious we still need more maps, but it would make sense to even offer the ability to create maps would help in offsetting costs significantly (at least, assuming you put in a fair system to evaluate player created maps) in the same way you "hire" cheaper labor to accomplish the same task (like how many companies hire support from other countries). The "free" man hours (which could be compensated in many ways) would probably produce a better ROI than continuing to funnel over a quarter of a million to the map guys. Of course, numbers would help.

Anyhow, the major problem PGI has been having is still communication, and lack thereof. They have committed a lot of cardinal sins (telling the core playerbase they aren't the people they want) and word of mouth is having the real opposite effect. I'm willing to bet that the cost of "player acquisition" continues to grow (possibly exponentially) due to the putting very little effort into it... or possibly that if they even did it, it would "cost too much" to try to lower it. It's almost like the dirty dishes/room/whatever effect... if you had done the cleaning earlier, it wouldn't be so hard to clean the thing. We're at the point where recommending offering feedback about this game to other people is like asking people to help clean out a hoarder's basement. There may be people that will want to come (crazy enough to clean that mess up), but most won't bother to care after seeing it after a brief moment.

It's just a sad state of affairs nonetheless.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 November 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Davers]

I think it is a bit scary that CW seems to be more in the 'maintain' rather than 'growth' category. It's something everyone who has been around wants, but I am not sure that it will attract any new blood to the game. Moving lines on a map only interests people who are invested already. Notice how within 3-4 months they hit their 'daily user' level that remained pretty much unchanged for the life of the game? We may be in the same boat.

[Deathlike]

Davers, on 21 November 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I think it is a bit scary that CW seems to be more in the 'maintain' rather than 'growth' category. It's something everyone who has been around wants, but I am not sure that it will attract any new blood to the game. Moving lines on a map only interests people who are invested already. Notice how within 3-4 months they hit their 'daily user' level that remained pretty much unchanged for the life of the game? We may be in the same boat.

I think that many people have either left or simply stopped playing the game due to the game being stale. Two modes that are only accomplish two different facets (capping and killing) is not what I call "engaging" long term, even though more maps and mechs are being added. If CW arrives, I suspect people will come back, but if there is no depth in CW (as it is now), then this game is truly in "oh poop" mode.