179 replies to this topic

[-Muta-]

It really depends if you are on a PUG or 12's.

[Stealth Raptor]

while i kind of agree with you, to me there is a reason why a lot of the top units use similar builds - because they have the highest affect. our group tends to run whatever we want, and normally we only lose to teams that run meta build, so at what point does a team win due to meta builds and when due to pilot skill? personally i am still very effective running ppc gauss builds (and sometimes more effective then running the current meta). in the end however, until team who run meta get knocked off by teams that dont, i still have to give nods to the meta.

pugs dont really matter when it comes to builds, any good pilot can do stupid things in pugs just by flat out being better

Edited by Stealth Raptor, 10 November 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Stealth Raptor, on 10 November 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

while i kind of agree with you, to me there is a reason why a lot of the top units use similar builds - because they have the highest affect. our group tends to run whatever we want, and normally we only lose to teams that run meta build, so at what point does a team win due to meta builds and when due to pilot skill? personally i am still very effective running ppc gauss builds (and sometimes more effective then running the current meta). in the end however, until team who run meta get knocked off by teams that dont, i still have to give nods to the meta.

pugs dont really matter when it comes to builds, any good pilot can do stupid things in pugs just by flat out being better

Top tier success comes when 3 things meet:

Highly Skilled Pilots
and
Good Tactics/Leadership
use
Builds that are Effective, not just solo, but in complimenting each other.

You can have some success with 2 out of 3. But you will more often than not lose out to a unit that practices all 3.

[Stealth Raptor]

agreed completely. it is why the discussion of builds is such a hard one, as there are so many factors about what makes builds good and bad, and exceptional pilots who can do well in odd builds muddle it up a lot (have to deal with this a lot in our group). in the end, i still think that there is a reason why meta builds are used beyond the fact that they are easy. if other builds can be superior to them when piloted by exceptional pilots, then why do the groups that DO have exceptional pilots still run meta? is it because maybe they arent that good, or is it because they really are the best overall fits? imo if we really want to give the current meta a shake up, fix hit reg, that will have a big impact on the jump jet metagame

[Bishop Steiner]

ManusDei, on 10 November 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

I call this a fallacy because they are basing their rational on false information. If winning every match only required building meta then why don't they win every match? When they do lose a match, the meta build requirements are not the problem, its their arrogance. Meta is not how the game is won in competitive 12 man drops. The game is won by a strong leader with superior tactics and exploiting the strength of each team member's unique ability.

While I generally agree with a lot of this, I would say that your argument would be stronger if you removed the fallacious reasoning from your own post. I would say possibly rethink the way you express that part of your argument, as it does put a ***** in the armor of an otherwise well thought out post.

Even when a unit consistently does all 3 of the "keys to victory", they will still lose. Why? Because there are other teams just as good, who that night might have a new tactic. Or a player or two could be having an off night. Or a dozen other reasons.

That doesn't invalidate that more often than not, in two groups of equal skill and tactics and leadership, Meta will win. It becomes Meta, because it is the easiest path to victory. So by definition, to consistently overcome it, you need to be markedly superior in the other 2 aspects. And Unfortunately, in 12 man, even if you get 12 fabulous pilots together, they need that chemistry and cohesion to win consistently. And usually, "individualists" have more trouble achieving synergy than pack thinkers.

Not saying one cannot have success without Meta. But on is going to have to work a lot harder to get it, and sadly, most people are drawn to the path of least resistance. And then finding 11 other like minds who you can consistently practice which? Even harder.

But that SHOULD be the goal. Because winning without going EZMode IS the path to real satisfaction. Except most people have never tried it long enough to understand that.

And in 12 man, the sad truth is, overall, the individual skill part is actually the least important of the 3 blocks of victory. 12 Average guys who have a good plan, and who can be counted on to stick to it, even when they might individually get killed and get their stats hit, will usually beat 12 guys who are very talented, but not cohesive, and are often more worried about their individual stats than the Teams win. Can't count the number of losses I have suffered because the closest guy to stopping a basecap "doesn't want to suicide". So instead we lose anyhow to that.

Truthfully, the only real laughable part of the Comp12 crowd to me is the number of them that think that being part of a good 12 man makes them a superior player, when many of them (though not all) are mediocre at best PUGing, and when they don't have 11 other guys covering for their deficiencies. Because we all have them. Every build, every pilot, has weak spots. In a good cohesive 12 man, you can design around it to "cover" those spots, and enhance strengths. In PUG fights, you can honestly count on no one but yourself. Sometimes you get the good draw, but you cannot count on it.

[Lukoi Banacek]

ManusDei, on 10 November 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Please name a few groups I can join to demonstrate my skill as a true warrior which does not restrict my ability to mech loadouts.

We need a 12th lol.

[ManusDei]

I see your point Biship Steiner perhaps I should say that I'm looking for some out of the box thinking, unconventional thinking because non-meta builds are just as effective if not more effective with the right pilot.

I can't tell you how many times I find a meta build Atlas pilot rage in the text chat during a match after I kill him with my twin AC/2's and dual LL build. The Atlas pilot had AC/20, 3 SRM 6 and two LL. They complain that my twin AC/2's are OP right after I kill them. People seem to scratch their head after dying to twin AC/2's like its not supposed to ever happen. My motto - less is more.

[Ghogiel]

Since the meta is actually varied now. Drop decks include all kinds of short and long ranged play styles, brawlers and snipers I find it hard to view the current meta as so 1 dimensional as the OP makes out. However I would still absolutely ask pilots to get with the given program for that evenings entertainment and do what good pilots do best... adapt.

I can see both sides, but is a stubborn snowflake really a real pilot?

edit; Ac2s eh?
I have seen wolf spiders pump out some AC2 drop decks. Might try give those lads a knock maybe they looking for some new blood?

Edited by Ghogiel, 10 November 2013 - 08:14 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Roadbeer, on 10 November 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Ahem... LRMs require patience, especially when not in LOS situations, which sometimes is a greater skill than any 'twitch' response, they also require a greater level of ammo discipline than most auto cannons.

But thank you for your OPINION.

This.

Twitch response/precise aim may be a skill, but using LRM's effectively is absolutely a skill as well. If a bad player is doing well with LRM's, it's because his opponents are worse.

Unlike... well, practically everything else, LRM's have multiple passive counters, which reduce the weapon systems effectiveness irregardless of the target player. Then there's mounds of active defenses as well... such as walking backwards and turning. Or, noticing the "incoming missiles" warning and stepping behind a rock.

I see lots of new players move to LRM/SSRM builds hoping to have an easier run of things, but I think that's a very, very bad idea. Using either system effectively requires a lot more actual player skill in terms of battlefield awareness and actual understanding of the weapon system itself than, say, Large Lasers which just hit whatever you point at.

Off topic, though, my apologies.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 10 November 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

This.

Twitch response/precise aim may be a skill, but using LRM's effectively is absolutely a skill as well. If a bad player is doing well with LRM's, it's because his opponents are worse.

Unlike... well, practically everything else, LRM's have multiple passive counters, which reduce the weapon systems effectiveness irregardless of the target player. Then there's mounds of active defenses as well... such as walking backwards and turning. Or, noticing the "incoming missiles" warning and stepping behind a rock.

I see lots of new players move to LRM/SSRM builds hoping to have an easier run of things, but I think that's a very, very bad idea. Using either system effectively requires a lot more actual player skill in terms of battlefield awareness and actual understanding of the weapon system itself than, say, Large Lasers which just hit whatever you point at.

Off topic, though, my apologies.

not too mention LRMs and Streaks dont benefit from double and triple weapon ranges. And ÑLRMs to be remotely effective require either mad skills to TAG and bag at mid range yourself, or serious team work to keep target s lit for LRMs. Consistently effective LRM work require more team coordination than pretty much any weapon in the game.

LRMs need a serious projectile speed boost, for one thing.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 November 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

not too mention LRMs and Streaks dont benefit from double and triple weapon ranges. And ÑLRMs to be remotely effective require either mad skills to TAG and bag at mid range yourself, or serious team work to keep target s lit for LRMs. Consistently effective LRM work require more team coordination than pretty much any weapon in the game.

LRMs need a serious projectile speed boost, for one thing.

Yup. The solo LRM pilot is basically only effective from 200-450m, unless his opponents are terrible.

In order to maintain a lock, the LRM pilot must keep his crosshairs on his target. With good teamwork this can be possible without line of sight, but otherwise the LRM pilot must stare at his target for the missile's painfully long flight time... all the while, his target is aware those missiles are incoming. At longer ranges, the 5+ second flight time means your target has to be in a really bad situation to actually hit him.

So, you've got a weapon system that's passively countered and effectively shut down entirely if too many enemy mechs mount AMS and/or ECM, which is only effective within a narrow range band - is literally useless inside 180m, and effectively useless at longer ranges.

I'm definitely not an LRM boat pilot by any means. I rarely use them at all, and when I do it's limited to 10-15 tubes worth as a supporting system on a PUG specific build, so this is not coming from some "Paper is fine, nerf Rock -- sincerely Scissors" angle. But if anything, I'd say utilizing LRM's effectively requires more skill and teamwork than any other weapon system.

[Bagheera]

I pilot my founder's Hunchie easily 2-3 times as often as any of my other mechs. Obviously my argument is invalid on all things meta.

[Mandar]

check us out, we dont force anyone to play a mech or play style they dont like.

http://rrb.enjin.com/rangers/

[Mycrus]

ManusDei, on 10 November 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Please name a few groups I can join to demonstrate my skill as a true warrior which does not restrict my ability to mech loadouts.

It's not about the size of the gun you bring to the battlefield its how you use it that matters most.

If you actively play in the GMT+8 primetime, check F8L out... We thumb our nose on the meta..

[ManusDei]

Finally, 2 groups to check out. thank you

[Orbit Rain]

Interesting, you can't use the messaging system yet, anyways, I was gonna send this directly to you:

Take a look at our recruiting thread, and if you're interested, hop on NGNG and check out the Cameron's Highlanders channel. We aren't hung up on current meta builds, haven't been for a while, We do have roles that whoever is drop-leading will ask for, like an LRM boat, ecm scout, D-DC, direct-fire... that sorta thing. We occasionally beat the poptart clans, and *do* beat most other comers. We're mostly mature (no-drama) guys that are MW addicts.

from that post:

Quote

Our comms are calm and efficient during drops. We have our own way of doing things which lead to more victoriess than defeats. A warrior in this company can choose which direction best suits him regarding roles, and we aren't hung up on running high alpha builds.

[CDLord HHGD]

ManusDei, on 10 November 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Please name a few groups I can join to demonstrate my skill as a true warrior which does not restrict my ability to mech loadouts.

It's not about the size of the gun you bring to the battlefield its how you use it that matters most.

You were already in one at one time....... BTW, good to see you around.

[RF Greywolf]

I believe that there are many units that welcome pilots that think on their own and find the non-meta builds that compliment their play style. The problem is that the units that demand their pilots use meta builds are louder and post their recruitment EVERYWHERE they possibly can, always claiming to be 'Top-Ranked'. IDK, maybe it is just a couple pilots that seem to be posting on how the meta builds are superior and shooting down any build that gets posted that doesn't fit, all I know is that they are making it hard for new players to experiment with builds to find that 'glass slipper' mech that they are great with. I have always been a big supporter of players finding a design that compliments how they play the game, how they want the mech to work.

That is actually why I like running PUG matches. You get to see some oddball builds that are actually well suited for the role that they are designed for, builds that you would never see someone try in a 12 man due to the fact it is not an 'optimized' build. PUG matches, IMHO, are also more dependent on your situational awareness since you are not in direct communication with your team. You have to look at where your team is and what they are doing, instead of following a predetermined path that if one person isn't in the exact right spot then everything fails. I know many matches that ended with someone yelling about how the only reason they died was because their team didn't use the 'hot spots'.

Sorry for the rant...

[Barantor]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 November 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Top tier success comes when 3 things meet:

Highly Skilled Pilots
and
Good Tactics/Leadership
use
Builds that are Effective, not just solo, but in complimenting each other.

You can have some success with 2 out of 3. But you will more often than not lose out to a unit that practices all 3.

I've seen top tier units that only have the bottom two, because they can make up for the top. I've seen some 'top tier' pilots that freak out like a cat in a pool when they drop into pugs and get surrounded.

All 3 being top is more rare than I think most imagine. One lance of folks with all three can make up for two lances with only two.

This is why I like pugs or 4 mans with friends, I can take what I want even if I am learning and try it out against such random occurrences that I know if I'm doing good I am the one that is skilled, not just a team propping me up. It is almost like some teams have one good lance to crutch up the few average ones.

[Mister Blastman]

Clan Star Adder does use meta-builds in some 12-man drops though lately we've been experimenting with non-meta drops. We are, however, looking for pilots who are extremely skilled in NON-meta builds. In fact, our Trial of Entrance depends on you being good in mixed weapons as we have recently overhauled the restrictions to prevent meta-builds from being used.

A pilot extremely skilled in non-meta builds who can survive and dominate in the highest ELO brackets is someone we want to talk to.

You're welcome to check us out on Teamspeak anytime. Click on the link at the bottom of my banner.