25 replies to this topic

[A Tin Can]

I am a (mostly Jenner) light pilot, running a build like this one.

I don't have a lot of time to play, but I've had some successful matches doing 200-300 damage, first scouting, and then running harassment for my team. I run away from fights I can't take, and come back at a good angle to alpha a few rears of distracted enemies before I run away again.

I've also had some very bad matches, where I do less than 100 damage, and get murdered by another light either while scouting, or by being chased when I'm trying to run away from the fight.

Fighting another light usually degrades to circling round each other at full throttle taking potshots at each other's legs. I usually lose these fights - I assume because the enemy pilots are better shots, and concentrate their damage better.

Any advice, other than practice? Do I just need to work on being a better shot, or should I be trying to avoid circling round each other? How do light vs light fights go for experienced pilots?

[Wraith 1]

Your overall tactics sound solid, with some practice you'll be doing 600 damage on a good day. Don't worry too much about terrible matches, a streaktaro or jagerbomb can ruin even the best light pilots day.

As for 1v1 in light mechs... Well, you really don't want to fight another light 1v1 if you can avoid it. The difference between life and death is slim at best, it's called the circle of death for a reason. If you don't have any other lights with you, try to force your opponent to disengage by regrouping with the main force.

Be careful when running away from another light. I usually play an anti-light role when I'm close to my heavier allies, and many newer pilots will ignore me entirely while they run back to their blob. This makes it extremely easy to leg you or core you from the rear. If you run away from a light fight, use your jumpjets to turn in the air and shoot back. I get plenty of free SRM hits that way, though it's a bit easier with more jets.

If all else fails, you could adjust your build a bit. SRMs have been known to have bad hit registration, especially against fast targets. Pulse lasers are easier to deal concentrated damage with due to their shorter beam duration. I like this build for pulse lasers, but 4 MPL could work if you watch your heat: JR7-K

Hope this helps, good luck!

[xMintaka]

I still lose a great deal of duels against other lights, but since starting to implement the below tactics that has risen from almost always losing.

- Use your jumpjets to perform tighter turns.
- Reverse your turn. It confuses the hell out most of the pilots I face.
- Stop. It will take them a moment or two to realise, in this time you can start moving again at a more favourable angle (one that allows you to fire but doesn't allow them).

Of course, there is always the "run back to your team and hope they follow" tactic. If you go for this one, remember to keep torso twisting so they don't core you out from behind. Not running in a straight line helps too.


Take the above with a pinch (or handful) of salt, as I still struggle against other lights.


Edit to include my JR7-K build. It's similar to yours, but with more jumpjets and marginally less cooling. You could drop two JJ's and add another heatsink, or more ammo. Two is plenty for getting getting yourself out of (and into) trouble.

Edited by Lunatech, 11 November 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[Silentium]

Lunatech, on 11 November 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

- Use your jumpjets to perform tighter turns.
- Reverse your turn. It confuses the hell out most of the pilots I face.
- Stop. It will take them a moment or two to realise, in this time you can start moving again at a more favourable angle (one that allows you to fire but doesn't allow them).

This is generally solid advice. I have been using reverse turns for some time, mainly because I want to break the circle, and it does seem to work pretty well. I also fully endorse getting back to your blob, and would generally advise against going more than a grid square out without some back up.

Ultimately, practice makes perfect, but it sounds like you are already starting to get there. I think 1v1 light duels are a waste of time personally, it takes too much effort, and you might be better off shooting into open slots on heavies, or chasing off the little ******** harassing your fatties.

[Dominoran]

You may be able to practice to improve fighting in a circle of death. It's not a desired situation to be in, but if you're forced to may as well be the better one.

Blindsiding from a different angle, or a stopped/slow light is probably the most efficient way to kill. If the shots don't connect and you gain threat, try to disengage and try another angle. The less shots against you the better.

[Durant Carlyle]

I am a light pilot. I have 1,157 matches, 630 wins, 518 losses, 1,072 kills, 617 deaths, 276,242 damage done, 996,197 XP earned, and 4 days 22 hours of seat time in the Jenner. I also have 600+ matches in the Spider. I am nowhere near the best, but I am very good.

Unlike the others, I highly recommend getting into any and all 1v1 duels (even dueling against heavier 'Mechs) that you can. I have won many and lost many -- but they are always fun. There are a few 'Mechs I will not duel 1v1 unless they are already damaged, but all others are fair game.

Be careful though -- they can easily become more-v-1. Depending on what the second 'Mech is (and how damaged the first one is), I will sometimes keep fighting and sometimes attempt to disengage.

I'd recommend modifying your build to include Beagle Active Probe and two Streak SRM-2 launchers, especially if you intend to be a light-hunter.

[Silentium]

Just out of curiosity, how much of your kill total would you attribute to light on light combat?

I don't disagree with the fun factor, but i think it is safe to say that fighting an equally skilled light pilot is frequently a drawn out affair. I always end up feeling like a drag on the team when i get drawn into these contests, frequently ending up the last man standing even if i do come out on top.

[Buckminster]

Honestly, I find that in the light vs light fight, the mech with the most streaks seems to come out on top. Enough streaks will eventually leg or cripple the other mech.

I've done the circle dance many times, and my Locust 3S (with 4 Streaks) seems to come out on top more often than not. If I'm in one of my other lights (without Streaks) it seems that I end up the loser. The only thing that really changes that equation is the presence of ECM.

But honestly, I find that as a light pilot, I try to avoid one on one fights on mechs I can't outmaneuver. Speed is my greatest strength, if I come across an opponent that matches me in that category, I look for another opponent.

Edited by Buckminster, 11 November 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[A Tin Can]

Thanks everyone, some great tips. I was also reading this thread, and found this quote, which I'll reproduce here:

PEEFsmash, on 24 October 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Ah, Jenner-F vs Jenner-F is probably the highest skill fight in the game right now.

I do not go for legs initially, but I am open to the possibility of going for legs if by accident I hit leg quite a bit. Typically I want to go CT, and I don't go for diaper I just shoot at center mass of that huge boat of a CT. Shooting at the "grill" is often good.

One of the biggest things to remember in a duel is not to shut down. Honestly probably a third of jenner F duels someone shuts down and promptly loses. You have to know the percents that will shut you down and don't shoot until you are below them. Never turn your legs while firing, only torso. Position your legs before the shot so that you will be able to keep your full laser beam on them just by twisting your torso.

I might also try taking some streaks as per this JR7-D build, feedback welcome.

[Durant Carlyle]

Silentium, on 11 November 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, how much of your kill total would you attribute to light on light combat?

I would guess around 30-40%. I love light fights. Each light I challenge is one that won't be messing with my heavier buddies who are less adept at handling them.

I'm not a "scout" pilot -- I'm a striker/harasser that happens to like speedy, mobile 'Mechs.

I'd pilot a JR7-F, but I don't like it when multiple weapons shoot out of the same opening. If they change it so that it actually shoots three beams out of each arm, I might switch to that. They still need to go over the Jenner for visual weapon changes, so it's a possibility.

[Hayashi]

I wrote a (now hopelessly outdated) guide on Jenner tactics some time ago, of which some of it has been nerfed into irrelevance, and some of the others that are more generalisable to light mechs are now 'common knowledge' you'd observe nearly every pilot do. But a few bits that haven't already been said:

In the event that you're even fighting another mech 1-on-1 you've already failed. Your job is to stack odds against other mechs because of your high speed and jump jet capabilities. Assist others, shoot assaults from behind so they turn around (then run away while your team shoots them in the back), etc. Lights are meant to appear as if they're everywhere, fighting everyone, at once. This was true back in 8v8, it's even more true now that there's 4 more mechs per side. Always fight with stacked odds on your side. This makes nonsensical results like 600+ damage and 4+ kills entirely possible on a regular basis. Fighting chains of 1v1 battles will never benefit your team's result or your personal rewards as much as helping others in repeated 2-3v1 battles will. Fire like crazy, stack heat up to 80-90%, then withdraw and go to the next battle, using the transit time to cool off. Transit between cover so you don't get shot on the way. For speed plus jump jets, only Spiders can even catch up with you, and they don't have half enough firepower to ruin your day. When 2 players gang up on a target, the target takes double damage and inflicts half the damage (because he dies faster), so it's a 4x advantage. When 3 players gang up, it's a 9x advantage. By repeatedly pressing numerical advantages, you make it very difficult for any enemy to win.

Withdraw behind cover, and run in zigzag manners. Jump jet near the end so that your zigzag is a sharp one, not a nice curve which anyone can predict (and which gives people a 1 second window where you're running directly away from them).

Maybe I should do another recording now since this video is OLD (back in closed beta when collisions were enabled, back when only SHS existed, back before HSR when aiming lasers required leading targets, back before ECM etc etc) but it suffices to show the concept.

Edited by Hayashi, 11 November 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

For the record, I wasn't saying you should be fighting in a chain of 1v1s. But you shouldn't actively avoid every single one of them either. If you see a lone light 'Mech and no other enemies within detection range, go kick his butt. Sometimes it's enough to do a strafing run or two and then disengage. It will prevent him from going wherever he wanted and doing whatever he was going to do. Maybe he was going to go step on your base and distract your buddies. Or maybe he's spotting and TAGging your buddies for LRM rain. Disrupt his activities, or your team will suffer.

It's very situational -- not "do not do this ever" or "always do this" but something that, with practice, you get a feel for.

I do everything Hayashi recommends. I just don't consider getting into 1v1s a mistake. They're fun, exciting, and a great test of skill, and that's what I'm playing for.

[Buckminster]

Durant Carlyle, on 12 November 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

It's very situational -- not "do not do this ever" or "always do this" but something that, with practice, you get a feel for.

You can't really stress this enough. There are basic guidelines that you should stick to, especially as a light pilot (where mistakes are less forgiving), but every guideline has an exception, every rule has a time to be broken. And a lot of it depends on what you are looking to accomplish. For example:



388 damage, a kill, a component destroyed, some assists - all good stuff for a Locust. But we lost. All that time I spent in a 1 on 1 with a Cataphract got me some personal victory, but we lost the match. I may have been better off chasing caps rather than stroking my ego taking out a heavy. Then again, that heavy was in the back sniping at my team mates - so keeping him occupied may have been the best thing for me to do. It's really hard to say - no rule is always right.

Edited by Buckminster, 12 November 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[DEMAX51]

Light v. Light fights are tricky (and, for me at least, very fun) affairs. Unless you're confident that the enemy is completely alone, it's generally best just to try to lure them back to the rest of your team. If you're intent on taking them on however, here's a few tips:

1. Know what you're shooting at: Fighting a Jenner? aim at the gigantic CT. Any other Light you're pretty much going to want to try to Leg (the Commando has a decent-sized torso too, so that's one you can kind of go either way on).

2. Try to time the enemy's shots: jump jet, change direction, and use the terrain to your advantage when you think they're about to shoot. I cannot stress this one enough. When I'm in my Jenner, I'm constantly thinking to myself "ok... if I were that guy, I would shoot at me....NOW" and then I do whatever I can to make him miss.

3. Know when you're in trouble: This one's pretty self-explanatory... when you're in trouble, it's time to break off and return to your teammates. Part of this is recognizing the enemy's loadout - if you're in the Jenner-K you listed above and he's in a Jenner-D with two streaks, you're in trouble. That's not a fight you want to be in.

4. Work on your aim: Success as a Light depends largely on your ability to keep you lasers trained on a SINGLE COMPONENT of the enemy's mech, especially while both of you are moving at high speeds. To make this easier on yourself, you may want to lower your mouse sensitivity / DPI.

5. Watch your heat: In a Light v Light fight, if one person overheats it's pretty much over. Don't be that person.

6. If you're having trouble, try using a Streak build. Streaks are deadly against Lights, and the regular screen-shake from their impact makes it hard for your target to aim and return fire.

[YueFei]

One thing I'd like to add is to resist the urge to fire at the "merge" which is right when you stumble into another light mech and you're about to run past each other. Unless you have unbelievable mouse skills to rapidly track someone as they swing past at a combined speed of 300+ kph, resist the temptation to take that shot. There's a good reason fighter pilots don't go for that shot. Instead, start your jump turn early, and take the fade-away jump shot, which will have a much slower LOS-rate.

I still make the mistake of taking that merging shot sometimes, tho. =P It takes some time to break bad habits.

I saw other Jenner pilots doing this fade-away shot and didn't realize that's what I was seeing for a long time. Then finally I understood it. They'd run right past an enemy light, holding their fire. Then jump turn and shoot in mid-air. The shot from the air is much smoother than firing while running on the ground, since any little bumps in the ground will throw off your aim.

Edited by YueFei, 13 November 2013 - 12:18 AM.

[Kiiyor]

I love my Jenners.

I do best when I play like a dirty, filthy, cowardly little rogue. I shoot backs and vanish. I hide. I dart in and out of terrain. I run if i'm outnumbered. I lead enemies back to teammates, then attempt to kill steal. I won't fight if more than one person is looking at me, and even then i'll prefer to run and hide until their attention wavers. I like the ghosts from Super Mario (If they had a jetpack, Lazorz, and refused to stand still once spotted).

Any tactics that are likely to cause an opponent to rage are my bread and butter. Rage is your MASC in a Jenner.

I'd recommend you watch some of PEEF's videos on Jennering. Some good stuff there.

[Tremendous Upside]

Wraith1 pretty much nailed it. Thing about lights - is that they're not all equal. Some are better equipped for fighting other lights. Some are best equipped and suited for fighting as +1 vultures - add ons that excel at dropping bigger mechs while they're screened/engaged. The latter is pretty much what the Jenner K that you're running is. SRMs are more or less useless vs. other light mechs. Only time you're going to score with them is when the target is standing completely still - and even then only when the hits register. Your best tactic is to think more along the lines of drawing and fading. Working along the outer lines of the main group, picking at something and then fading it back into the pack... Then swinging back around once they realize they've taken the bait and hitting them from behind or popping heavily damaged torso areas.

If you want a jenner that excels in 1v1 combat with other lights, the D and the F are both better. The D carrying streaks - and the F just for pure leg/torso-crunching firepower. One thing to note with the Jenner F. It can carry 6MLs - and that's pretty brutal as far as light mech firepower goes... but I tend to find you're better running it with just 5MLs and extra heat sinks. You can get more volleys off that way with less concern of overheating. It's constant damage that'll win the race. Not bigger alphas with lights...

The one "trick" that also helps a lot with normal lasers when you're fighting other lights is to NOT try and just spin and shoot with them. You do that and your damage will go all over the place. You want to line your shots up so that you're travelling in a straight line as you unload. Almost like jousting. Yes, that's hazardous to your own health... so get a pop on the way in as you engage, then cut hard to one direction or another and hit your jump jets, spin and THEN take the next shot. Most times, the target will try to turn to follow you and line itself up perfectly for you to drop full duration on torso or legs on the next shot. And if they don't follow, you've given yourself a full-speed pass to get behind them or pop them again on the way in. With the firepower and armor the Jenner has, it's an advantage for you either way.

And of course if you're already badly damaged to front armor - that's not the way to go. You need to pop targets that aren't looking at you and just pull them back to other friendlies so they can either drop or help drop them for you. The absolute key is staying alive, causing as much chaos as you can for as long as you are. Get that down and you'll be raking in massive damage and kill numbers in no time. Help your team jump out to an early lead by feeding them easy kills, and you'll have field days out there mopping up what's left. Don't think of what you do as "scouting" per se. Think of what you do more as splitting, compressing/holding or drawing the other team apart. That's what'll win games when you're running light mechs.

[Shade4x]

A Tin Can, on 11 November 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

I am a (mostly Jenner) light pilot, running a build like this one.

I don't have a lot of time to play, but I've had some successful matches doing 200-300 damage, first scouting, and then running harassment for my team. I run away from fights I can't take, and come back at a good angle to alpha a few rears of distracted enemies before I run away again.

I've also had some very bad matches, where I do less than 100 damage, and get murdered by another light either while scouting, or by being chased when I'm trying to run away from the fight.

Fighting another light usually degrades to circling round each other at full throttle taking potshots at each other's legs. I usually lose these fights - I assume because the enemy pilots are better shots, and concentrate their damage better.

Any advice, other than practice? Do I just need to work on being a better shot, or should I be trying to avoid circling round each other? How do light vs light fights go for experienced pilots?

3 manuevers to take out any mech as a light.

1) Stop when your behind. When you are behind the enemy, stay there, circle straifing has an objective. That objective is to be facing the enemys back.
2) use jump jets to change the angle you are running. This can even be used to pull a 180. Often it will change who is chasing who (also do a complete stop, and then jump jet into the air. They usually go past you, and you can have imedate access to their back when you land
3) run to your team, pilots are stupid and often follow to far.

That being said, if your having problems with lights, ssrm 2 it. it's much more reliable on smaller mech's and drive byes.

[Adiuvo]

Circle fighting is the mark of a bad pilot. No light fight should degrade into that. This is why jump jets are required on light mechs - by using them your turn rate rapidly increases allowing you to move as needed.

There aren't any tricks to fighting another light. The only concerns are movement and aim. This can only be improved with practice.

[-Muta-]

I am mostly a Raven 3L pilot.

I usually carry with me the info gathering module and quickly identify the area that has been damage the most and go for it.
After a lot of practice you will be able to concentrate your lasers in one area even while moving. Plus I have streaks and ECM.

JJ's are super useful but not a must for me.

But tslking about jenners I use the jenner D with BAP on it.

Edited by Mutaroc, 05 December 2013 - 06:12 AM.