9 replies to this topic

[Tooooonpie]

I'm not exactly a new player, but I'm still new enough to not know the balancing history of the game and all the various tweaks.

I've noticed Splatcat videos on youtube that are around 6 months old, and it just got me pondering two things:

1. How exactly were they nerfed? Was it just the inclusion of ghost heat?
2. Are Splatcats still viable?

~David

[John MatriX82]

They have been nerfed in various ways.

First of all the old SRMs had a splash damage bug that basically made each srm to do way much more damage than it should have done. So PGi reduced their damage and removed the bugged splash damage, lowering dmg per SRM @ 1.5 and then, after a huge public poll they indicted, they brought it back @ 2.0 per srm.

Then the flight pattern of the SRMs changed alongside that of the LRMs; while 6 months ago they "pulsed" waving so that you had them concentrating at certain distances (under 50m, 75/80m, 150m) and allowing you to target specific sections if you timed the shot knowing the best concentration distance, now they fly in a tube-like trajectory. Basically they spread open at 0m and follow the same spread and casual pattern up to 270m.

While the new flight pattern makes them more useful at distance (old flightpath without artemis made them useless past 150m with artemis you could use them at longer ranges but above 200/220 they went to hell nevertheless), now this new tube trajectory it's extremely punishing.. because it doesn't matter if you maneuver to get into very close range to take advantage of the tighter spread.. because the spread is the same from 0 to 270m. Which is BAD.

You don't award the player that puts the guts on the line risking them to get closer.


Add that hit detection is rather fuzzy with SRMs since the introduction of the Host State Rewind also for missiles, and that they included SRMs into the ghost heat penalty (so that if you shoot more than 3 SRM6 at once or 3 SRM4s or mix shoot more than 3 launchers at time, your heat becomes huge).. and you've basically destroyed the best brawling weapon of the game. And thus the splatcats.

This has lead directly to the 4PPC, then xPPCs+GR, then 2PPC+GR since ghost heat intro and now AC/UAC5+PPC or AC20+PPC metagame after they nerfed the GR.

Edited by John MatriX82, 11 November 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Koniving]

I can add to this. Splat cats are still reasonably viable, but you literally have to do one of two things. Set 3 SRM-6s to one trigger pull and 3 SRM-6s to another, or chainfire rapidly. SRM-6s are unfortunately very inaccurate and impractical. Even back then I preferred the far more accurate and predictable SRM-4s.

Also if you alpha strike any cluster of SRMs, hit detection gets progressively worse with every volley fired at the same time.

Mentioned at the beginning of this is a comment on hit detection in large volleys. Ghost heat has actually made this joke build (6 LRM-15s) deadlier due to being forced to chain fire.

[Roughneck45]

Damage was lowered and splash damage was removed.

Ghost heat was added.

SRM's have HSR issues.

The new weapon models for cats make the ears huge with that many launchers.

[John MatriX82]

Werewolf486, on 11 November 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Poor planning on how to manage weapons by PGI lead to all weapons issues and band-aid fixes. Keep it simple stupid is a wonderful saying they should learn. Ghost heat, new firing mechanics, and a host of poor band-aid fixes to help them manage a very poorly thought out weapons management system. All they had to do was class the weapons and limit the amount of the best class weapon on a chassis, managing the weapons on a per chassis basis and thus keeping the band-aid fixes at bay and allowing the people to build with in reason and eliminate the boating and exploitation of weapons systems to bring the masses an easy to manage and balance game.

http://mwomercs.com/...ystems-for-mwo/

Aka hardpoint restrictions.. This game desperatedly need similar systems to avoid boating and to better balance off weapons systems that are naturally boated like srms and LRMs. Not ghost heat, not 1.4 dhs and all that lead us to the poor balance we're experiencing for more than 1 year..

[Nehkrosis]

Well, on the plus side, at least we are steadily chugging through all the weapon system and graaaaaadually fixing them.

Slowly.

[Koniving]

Far as how the missile launchers attach despite having 15 holes inside the arm, I basically got a "its a programming limitation" type answer which basically means accommodating it with IF, THEN script contingencies is a pain in the rear.

[aniviron]

John MatriX82, on 11 November 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

They have been nerfed in various ways.

First of all the old SRMs had a splash damage bug that basically made each srm to do way much more damage than it should have done. So PGi reduced their damage and removed the bugged splash damage, lowering dmg per SRM @ 1.5 and then, after a huge public poll they indicted, they brought it back @ 2.0 per srm.

Then the flight pattern of the SRMs changed alongside that of the LRMs; while 6 months ago they "pulsed" waving so that you had them concentrating at certain distances (under 50m, 75/80m, 150m) and allowing you to target specific sections if you timed the shot knowing the best concentration distance, now they fly in a tube-like trajectory. Basically they spread open at 0m and follow the same spread and casual pattern up to 270m.

While the new flight pattern makes them more useful at distance (old flightpath without artemis made them useless past 150m with artemis you could use them at longer ranges but above 200/220 they went to hell nevertheless), now this new tube trajectory it's extremely punishing.. because it doesn't matter if you maneuver to get into very close range to take advantage of the tighter spread.. because the spread is the same from 0 to 270m. Which is BAD.

You don't award the player that puts the guts on the line risking them to get closer.


Add that hit detection is rather fuzzy with SRMs since the introduction of the Host State Rewind also for missiles, and that they included SRMs into the ghost heat penalty (so that if you shoot more than 3 SRM6 at once or 3 SRM4s or mix shoot more than 3 launchers at time, your heat becomes huge).. and you've basically destroyed the best brawling weapon of the game. And thus the splatcats.

This has lead directly to the 4PPC, then xPPCs+GR, then 2PPC+GR since ghost heat intro and now AC/UAC5+PPC or AC20+PPC metagame after they nerfed the GR.

An excellent post summing up the direct nerfs to SRMs, which alone would be enough reason to see no more splatcats. I do however feel that you're missing two of the most important things, which contributed as much if not more to the death of the splatcat:

First of all, the maps got HUGE. Around the turn of the year when the Splatcat was king, the biggest map we had was Caustic Valley. Even on CV, despite its open playing area and relatively large size, there's still generally some cover to be found within 3-500m of any given position. But when alpine, tourmaline, terra therma, and crimson strait came out, all four are maps over 4km long and they all feature gigantic open areas where all the combat happens, places where it can be 1km to the nearest cover. Because all of those maps allow you to essentially ignore the close combat areas if they have them at all, the splatcat was left wide open with a hard max range of 270m. Incidentally, this is also why brawler AS7-D/DC builds are much rarer than they once were, and they weren't even hard capped to 270.

At the same time that the maps became much longer ranged (with the exception of Canyon Network), the PPC and entire autocannon line got pretty huge buffs, and while the PPC buffs were eventually rolled back, they still have the best hit detection of any weapon in the game, while SRMs have the worst. The small autocannons also retained the buffs they got during the PPC's reign as king, and the 2, 5, and 10 are some of the only weapons in the game (certainly the only used ones) which do not suffer from ghost heat penalties. All of the above things have made long-range combat a very very attractive prospect, and that attitude has taken root from competitive play down to the lowest Elo brackets, meaning that a splatcat will have a very tough time getting into position at its optimal range of about 100m or even max range of 270m without getting chewed up pretty badly first, making it easy prey for every long-range weapon except the PPC even at close range.

[John MatriX82]

aniviron, on 11 November 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

An excellent post summing up the direct nerfs to SRMs, which alone would be enough reason to see no more splatcats. I do however feel that you're missing two of the most important things, which contributed as much if not more to the death of the splatcat:

First of all, the maps got HUGE. Around the turn of the year when the Splatcat was king, the biggest map we had was Caustic Valley. Even on CV, despite its open playing area and relatively large size, there's still generally some cover to be found within 3-500m of any given position. But when alpine, tourmaline, terra therma, and crimson strait came out, all four are maps over 4km long and they all feature gigantic open areas where all the combat happens, places where it can be 1km to the nearest cover. Because all of those maps allow you to essentially ignore the close combat areas if they have them at all, the splatcat was left wide open with a hard max range of 270m. Incidentally, this is also why brawler AS7-D/DC builds are much rarer than they once were, and they weren't even hard capped to 270.

At the same time that the maps became much longer ranged (with the exception of Canyon Network), the PPC and entire autocannon line got pretty huge buffs, and while the PPC buffs were eventually rolled back, they still have the best hit detection of any weapon in the game, while SRMs have the worst. The small autocannons also retained the buffs they got during the PPC's reign as king, and the 2, 5, and 10 are some of the only weapons in the game (certainly the only used ones) which do not suffer from ghost heat penalties. All of the above things have made long-range combat a very very attractive prospect, and that attitude has taken root from competitive play down to the lowest Elo brackets, meaning that a splatcat will have a very tough time getting into position at its optimal range of about 100m or even max range of 270m without getting chewed up pretty badly first, making it easy prey for every long-range weapon except the PPC even at close range.

120% Agree. I simply focused on the weapon system's history without taking into account the increase in range, which is one of the things that made brawling rarer, although with the terrain you can still try to employ short range builds even there, but few of them pay off due to their situational nature. If srms would be more effective, I bet people would be happier to even take into account the risk to drop on long range maps, because they know they can hurt if they close in appropriately.

Now you can close in as you want only to spread damage all over, while the other pinpoints the {Scrap} out of you..

We could also count the abysimal design choice of the newer missile pods with external launchers that they slapped on the A1s, making them even more worthless since they are gargantuan, but it's a 1 week-old nerf so I skipped it.. the thing was dead far before this tombstone.

[Geek Verve]

Werewolf486, on 11 November 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Poor planning on how to manage weapons by PGI lead to all weapons issues and band-aid fixes. Keep it simple stupid is a wonderful saying they should learn. Ghost heat, new firing mechanics, and a host of poor band-aid fixes to help them manage a very poorly thought out weapons management system. All they had to do was class the weapons and limit the amount of the best class weapon on a chassis, managing the weapons on a per chassis basis and thus keeping the band-aid fixes at bay and allowing the people to build with in reason and eliminate the boating and exploitation of weapons systems to bring the masses an easy to manage and balance game.

http://mwomercs.com/...ystems-for-mwo/

I just have to say, as someone who just started in mid-September, short of the hit registration issues, the weapon systems seem fine to me (though the charging mechanic on the gauss is kind of odd). People get all worked up about ghost heat, but it makes sense enough to me - heat output climbs to more than the sum of its parts. I just work around it (which was the intent, I would think) and move on.

I wonder how much dissatisfaction there would be if we were all experiencing this game for the first time at launch, rather than there being so many who had played for many months during beta - you know, when one should *expect* all these sorts of things to be getting tweaked left and right.