99 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Shredhead, on 14 November 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

While that's all true, you should rather compare MW gunplay with tank systems. Leopard 2A4 was able of mechanically and electronically stabilized precision firing at ranges over 1000 meters, on the move. With 1980's technology. A human body doesn't quite equate to something like that, does it?

Just remember - a weapons designer in a German, Russian, US or whatever US R&D lab is trying to make the best possible weapon system, and he doesn't care about "game balance".

But a game designer in the best AAA game company does think about how to make all weapon systems balanced. Making a weapon the best possible is easy for a game designer - just take any existing weapon and add a few 0s after the current damage number.

[stjobe]

Vodrin Thales, on 14 November 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

But aren't we comparing apples and oranges there? We are assuming that a human being firing handheld weapons is the same thing as a several stories high, multi-ton mech firing it's integrated weapons with computer assistance.

There is such a thing as taking an off-the-cuff comparison too far. Yes, the 'mechs have targeting computers. No, they're not able to put all the weapon damage in one spot on 'mech-sized target at ranges under a kilometre.

Ever wondered why that is?

Apart from it making BattleTech a more enjoyable game, it may well be because BT 'mechs didn't alpha; their weapon fire were spread out during the 10 second turn and thus naturally hit different parts of their target.

That's just one possible explanation, of course, but one that makes at least some sense.

Vodrin Thales, on 14 November 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

I don't think any of us is qualified to evaluate the plausibility of MWO's current convergence system.

Oh I think we all are qualified to say it stinks.

Vodrin Thales, on 14 November 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

What we need to focus on is what sort of system makes for a fun game experience and leave real life out of it, as MWO is attempting to simulate a world that is very different from our real one.

Exactly, and I've often used the very same argument myself. 1000-years-in-the-future giant walking armoured fighting machines equipped with 1000-years-in-the-future arms and armour have very little to do with the battlefields of today.

However, I am focusing on a fun game experience when I say that pin-point accuracy needs to go and that making ACs burst-fire weapons and the PPC a beam weapon is one way of achieving that.

Edited by stjobe, 14 November 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Shredhead]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 November 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Just remember - a weapons designer in a German, Russian, US or whatever US R&D lab is trying to make the best possible weapon system, and he doesn't care about "game balance".

But a game designer in the best AAA game company does think about how to make all weapon systems balanced. Making a weapon the best possible is easy for a game designer - just take any existing weapon and add a few 0s after the current damage number.

I know, and I agree. All I'm saying is that a cone of fire system is detrimental to a fun game experience. A conversion system works way better in my opinion because you can learn skills to get good with that, while a constant cone of fire makes the game one of pure chance, which is no fun at all. Using some RL stuff to back up the lore behind a system helps with immersion.

stjobe, on 14 November 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

There is such a thing as taking an off-the-cuff comparison too far. Yes, the 'mechs have targeting computers. No, they're not able to put all the weapon damage in one spot on 'mech-sized target at ranges under a kilometre.

Ever wondered why that is?

Apart from it making BattleTech a more enjoyable game, it may well be because BT 'mechs didn't alpha; their weapon fire were spread out during the 10 second turn and thus naturally hit different parts of their target.

Well that's just not true. There are several stock builds that can Alpha all day long in TT, and people made heat neutral builds as well, which isn't even possible in MWO.

Quote

[...]
However, I am focusing on a fun game experience when I say that pin-point accuracy needs to go and that making ACs burst-fire weapons and the PPC a beam weapon is one way of achieving that.

Well, that's just like... your opinion, man. I like the ACs being single shots, makes them harder to use, especially up close. Same goes for PPCs.

Edited by Shredhead, 14 November 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[akpavker]

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There's nothing random about a laser. It just takes more skill to put the beam in the same spot for the entire burn time. It also gives the victim a chance to maneuver defensively on reflex to shade the hitbox you're trying to hit. It ups the skill cap, it doesn't lower it or randomize your shots.

i dont beleive i said any thing about lasers in their current state. maybe you need to read things a little more carfully before running your mouth. here is khobai's post that i commented on.

Khobai, on 13 November 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

thats the biggest problem with the current weapon balance.

ssrms were unbalanced because they all hit center torso. now that they spread damage out theyre fine. PGI needs to apply that same principle to all weapons.

either that or the pinpoint weapons need to have massive downsides like gauss does.

if this mechanic was implemented to the game no matter how good of a shot you are the damage would spread every where. e.g. you aim and shoot your laser at the right torso and hit that right torso for the entier duration of the beam but the damage doesnt hit right torso. instead it transfers to 1 leg and 2 of the arms and maybe the CT there for sir your laser becomes very random. this is his suggestion.

Edited by akpavker, 14 November 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

AC2 - fires one round, 2 damage
AC5 - fires two rounds, 2.5 damage
AC10 - fires three rounds, 3.3 damage
AC20 - fires four rounds, 5 damage

This is exactly what PGI needs to do. And PPCs should do splash damage as well so they dont hit for 10 damage in one spot.

Quote

Even so we need more than just damage per second weapons, I am happy to see Our ACs do damage like a M256 Cannon. with 10-12 rounds a minute.

Nope we dont. Precise aim and convergence already multiplies weapon damage insanely. Weapons with high pinpoint damage utterly dominate for that reason. The only real solution is to get rid of pinpoint weapons and convert them over to dps/spread weapons so pinpoint alpha stops dictating gameplay.

[akpavker]

Khobai, on 14 November 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

This is exactly what PGI needs to do. And PPCs should do splash damage as well so they dont hit for 10 damage in one spot.



Nope we dont. Precise aim and convergence already multiplies weapon damage insanely. Weapons with high pinpoint damage utterly dominate for that reason. The only real solution is to get rid of pinpoint weapons and convert them over to dps/spread weapons so pinpoint alpha stops dictating gameplay.

not a bad idea.....thats if pgi wants to turn MWO in to a ghost town. the moment any direct fire weapons are changed to spread/splash damage, like i said earlier im out of here and i think a lot of others would do the same. if i wanted to play a game that is random i wouldnt be here. the idea of adding the same mechenic that SSRM uses right now to every other weapon in the game will make it down right boring to play. i feal that there should be no more nerfing in this game. if any thing buff other weapons like laser in to line with balistics if its such a problem, but the nerfing has to stop!!

Edited by akpavker, 14 November 2013 - 07:44 PM.

[Drollzy]

Khobai, on 14 November 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

This is exactly what PGI needs to do. And PPCs should do splash damage as well so they dont hit for 10 damage in one spot.



Nope we dont. Precise aim and convergence already multiplies weapon damage insanely. Weapons with high pinpoint damage utterly dominate for that reason. The only real solution is to get rid of pinpoint weapons and convert them over to dps/spread weapons so pinpoint alpha stops dictating gameplay.

Mate this is a simulator what you want to play is MWO Tactics.... This splash damage for pinpoint weapons is the worst idea ever proposed in these forums. If your incompetent in the game it does not mean we change the game mechanics to match your incompetence. It is a game of tactics and skill not random luck. Go play Table top or MWO tactics I think that would match your skill level. Its amazing that you would even propose such a preposterous idea... sigh the forums is such a cess pool of mediocrity.

The game has never been so well balanced sure there some areas that may need polishing but removing pinpoint weapons come on... Harden up and dont run in the open... use cover and flank more.. suppress the snipers or get skillz

[akpavker]

cdrolly, on 14 November 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Mate this is a simulator what you want to play is MWO Tactics.... This splash damage for pinpoint weapons is the worst idea ever proposed in these forums. If your incompetent in the game it does not mean we change the game mechanics to match your incompetence. It is a game of tactics and skill not random luck. Go play Table top or MWO tactics I think that would match your skill level. Its amazing that you would even propose such a preposterous idea... sigh the forums is such a cess pool of mediocrity.

The game has never been so well balanced sure there some areas that may need polishing but removing pinpoint weapons come on... Harden up and dont run in the open... use cover and flank more.. suppress the snipers or get skillz

i believe this is what drolly is talking about......



this game is turn based, seems to be completely based the board game rules and looks completely random when i comes to weapon fire and hit location. maybe people with problems with the current state of MWO or think it should resemble TT more should be playing this game instead.

[Khobai]

Quote

This splash damage for pinpoint weapons is the worst idea ever proposed in these forums.

Quote

It is a game of tactics and skill not random luck.

You think splash damage is worse than random cone of fire? Random cone of fire is the worst idea ever proposed in these forums. So youre wrong.

I'm not suggesting PPCs hit a random location AT ALL. Just that a % of the damage hits an adjacent location. There is zero randomness involved AT ALL. My suggestion clearly went over your head.

PPCs are a fundamentally broken weapon. So are AC/20s. The reason they are broken is because they do pinpoint damage. That's why mechs feel like they have tissue paper for armor. Reducing pinpoint damage is the only logical way to balance PPCs and AC/20s.

Quote

The game has never been so well balanced

Yeah except that its not balanced. Everyone uses the same three weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[akpavker]

Khobai, on 14 November 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

You think splash damage is worse than random cone of fire? Random cone of fire is the worst idea ever proposed in these forums.

I'm not suggesting PPCs hit a random location. Just that all their damage doesnt hit the same location. You would still be able to aim PPCs at a specific location. But a % of that damage would hit an adjacent location instead of it all hitting one location.

PPCs are a fundamentally broken weapon. So are AC/20s. The reason they are broken is because they do pinpoint damage. That's why mechs feel like they have tissue paper for armor. Reducing rid of pinpoint damage is the only solution.

um sorry but you did suggest PPC's hitting in a random location here it is again........

Khobai, on 13 November 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

thats the biggest problem with the current weapon balance.

ssrms were unbalanced because they all hit center torso. now that they spread damage out theyre fine. PGI needs to apply that same principle to all weapons.

either that or the pinpoint weapons need to have massive downsides like gauss does.

its on the first page a few posts down from the top. splash damage, cone of fire and random hit location. like drolly said their all dumb idea's for a first person shooter/simulator. if people want balance between ballistics and lasers remove ghost heat from the game!!!!! and like he also said mechwarrior tactics might be a better place for you there is no aim skill required, its turn base and looks likely to be based on dice rolls.

[stjobe]

Shredhead, on 14 November 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Well that's just not true. There are several stock builds that can Alpha all day long in TT, and people made heat neutral builds as well, which isn't even possible in MWO.

"Alpha" in TT translates to "fire all your weapons in 10 seconds" in MWO, that's what I'm saying, whereas there is no evidence that the MWO alpha ("fire all your weapons in the same instant") was ever applicable in TT.

Can you make a build that's heat neutral over 10 seconds in MWO? Yes, you can.

Shredhead, on 14 November 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Well, that's just like... your opinion, man. I like the ACs being single shots, makes them harder to use, especially up close. Same goes for PPCs.

No, it doesn't make them "harder to use", quite the opposite. Pointing at a pixel on the screen and clicking a button isn't hard, clicking a button and then following a small group of pixels as they move around the screen for half a second or so is much harder.

Neither one is especially hard, of course, but the notion that ACs are harder to use because they're instant-damage is ludicrous.

akpavker, on 14 November 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

if this mechanic was implemented to the game no matter how good of a shot you are the damage would spread every where. e.g. you aim and shoot your laser at the right torso and hit that right torso for the entier duration of the beam but the damage doesnt hit right torso. instead it transfers to 1 leg and 2 of the arms and maybe the CT there for sir your laser becomes very random. this is his suggestion.

That's not really what he's saying, is it? He's saying that SSRMs were OP when they were pin-point, but now that they have spread they're no longer OP (even though their damage has been increased!). He's not saying lasers should have the same spread mechanic as SSRMs; they can have their beam-duration as a spread mechanic. But the ACs and PPCs need some kind of spread as well.

ACs and PPCs are currently the most used weapons simply due to the fact that their pin-point nature makes them highly efficient killers. They're much easier to kill the enemy with than any laser or missile weapon. And that's not how it should be.

The easiest way of making these weapons non-pinpoint would be to make ACs burst-fire over a short duration, and make PPCs a beam weapon. This would also have the pleasant bonus of making them work like the lore fluff says they should work.

cdrolly, on 14 November 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

The game has never been so well balanced sure there some areas that may need polishing but removing pinpoint weapons come on...

Yes, that's exactly what needs to be done, and I wouldn't call a game balanced when the majority of weapons you see on the field is from three out of the available twenty-six weapon systems - all three of course using the pin-point accurate, all-damage-to-one-pixel ballistic mechanic.

Make ACs burst-fire and the PPC beam duration. It would make for a much more balanced game, with more skill required to put all your damage into one location. It would make for more survivability across the board, which would make matches longer and more tactical.

Edited by stjobe, 14 November 2013 - 11:27 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Shredhead, on 14 November 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

I know, and I agree. All I'm saying is that a cone of fire system is detrimental to a fun game experience. A conversion system works way better in my opinion because you can learn skills to get good with that, while a constant cone of fire makes the game one of pure chance, which is no fun at all. Using some RL stuff to back up the lore behind a system helps with immersion.

If you don't like cone of fire, there are alternatives:
Option 1: No convergence at all. Players have to learn how much each weapon needs to be lead depending on where it's located on their mech.
Option 2: No group fire - all single shot projectile weapons must be fired with a 0.5 second delay after each other, similar to how many MMOs disallow activating multiple powers together. (A proven technology of global cooldown ensures you can't circumvent this with macros.)
Option 3: All weapons fire a burst of projectiles (only the MG kinda works like this right now), a group of scattered projectiles (LBX, SRM, LRM), or have a beam with multiple pulses over a duration (like lasers now). This means weapons will spread because people cannot always hold their weapon "streams" steady on a target, especially not when it's moving and torso-twisting, or because the projectiles they fire inherently spread.

You don't need any randomization or cone of fire here.

[Lefty Lucy]

And of course option 2 makes medium mechs that spam light weapons completely worthless. It would make AC2s completely worthless, as you could only ever consistently fire on e AC2. It would pretty much make slow-firing, heavy-hitting weapons the only useable guns.

[Almond Brown]

Lefty Lucy, on 15 November 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

And of course option 2 makes medium Mechs that spam light weapons completely worthless. It would make AC2s completely worthless, as you could only ever consistently fire on e AC2. It would pretty much make slow-firing, heavy-hitting weapons the only useable guns.

The AC2 is not one of those on the *hit list here. Disallow Group fire and make the Global cool down .25 seconds even. Any amount of spread is enough. The issue is max points fired all arrive simultaneously.

That, or Double armor yet again. The average Match time is rough 7 minutes. The timer has a 15 minute count. Set the Mechs up with enough staying power to provide a 12 minute Match average. Another 2X of armor or Structure could easily accomplish that.

Another point of note. Yes TT had a cartridge based system for the AC type weapons BUT if the first of any cluster HIT, you were awarded full points of damage. How does the Dev translate that? What the ruck is the point of an AC20 if it average cluster score level off at 16? Nothing for the weight it costs to carry.

Edited by Almond Brown, 15 November 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[mike29tw]

Shredhead, on 14 November 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Well, that's just like... your opinion, man. I like the ACs being single shots, makes them harder to use, especially up close. Same goes for PPCs.

You have it backwards. ACs being single shots makes them easier to use.

Imagine if all our lasers deal damage in an instant. It makes them easier to land precision shots.

[stjobe]

Almond Brown, on 15 November 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

What the ruck is the point of an AC20 if it average cluster score level off at 16? Nothing for the weight it costs to carry.

What's the point of a ML that averages 2.6 damage?

Try it, go to your stats page and take the damage done for a laser and divide it by number of hits. You may be surprised.

Yet nobody complains that the ML is underpowered. Fancy that, perhaps it would be the same with burst-fire ACs?

Edited by stjobe, 15 November 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Shredhead]

stjobe, on 14 November 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

"Alpha" in TT translates to "fire all your weapons in 10 seconds" in MWO, that's what I'm saying, whereas there is no evidence that the MWO alpha ("fire all your weapons in the same instant") was ever applicable in TT.

Can you make a build that's heat neutral over 10 seconds in MWO? Yes, you can.


No, it doesn't make them "harder to use", quite the opposite. Pointing at a pixel on the screen and clicking a button isn't hard, clicking a button and then following a small group of pixels as they move around the screen for half a second or so is much harder.
[...]

Nope, there you're wrong. You can't make a heat neutral build in MWO. You can not compare a 10 second cycle of TT with a 10 second cycle of MWO while only firing once in MWO. You have to fire all weapons every time you can within the 10 seconds in MWO, then compare it with a round of TT. You will always build up heat within these ten seconds in MWO. There should be a heat penalty system in MWO, but I was saying that since CB.

And yes, pinpoint damage weapons are harder to use the closer you come! There are also other factors. Pinpoint weapons are more dangerous the bigger, heavier and more cumbersome a mech becomes. It is way easier to hit a certain torso section on an Atlas or Highlander than on a Blackjack or Shadowhawk, not to speak about lights.
You talk like it is such a walk in the park to hit certain parts while both opponents are moving and twisting. It's not. Lasers and SRMs are, due to spread or the ability to adjust while firing, way more forgiving weapons. Imagine a Hunchback 4P vs a Hunchback 4G. Who is more likely to win a CQB? It's the 4P because once he is through the armor he is much more likely to apply damage to the target area than the 4G. The advantage of the 4G is that he will most likely be through the armor earlier than the 4P.
Add to that, that all those pinpoint weapons have travel time, and the ACs also have a ballistic curve, which needs you to train your aiming skills. A laser I can simply adjust while firing to at least apply a bit of the damage I intended to. A miss with an AC or PPC cost you in ammo and/or heat while it gains you nothing.

mike29tw, on 15 November 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

[size=4]

You have it backwards. ACs being single shots makes them easier to use.

Imagine if all our lasers deal damage in an instant. It makes them easier to land precision shots.

Please read my explanation to stjobe.

MustrumRidcully, on 15 November 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

If you don't like cone of fire, there are alternatives:
Option 1: No convergence at all. Players have to learn how much each weapon needs to be lead depending on where it's located on their mech.
Option 2: No group fire - all single shot projectile weapons must be fired with a 0.5 second delay after each other, similar to how many MMOs disallow activating multiple powers together. (A proven technology of global cooldown ensures you can't circumvent this with macros.)
Option 3: All weapons fire a burst of projectiles (only the MG kinda works like this right now), a group of scattered projectiles (LBX, SRM, LRM), or have a beam with multiple pulses over a duration (like lasers now). This means weapons will spread because people cannot always hold their weapon "streams" steady on a target, especially not when it's moving and torso-twisting, or because the projectiles they fire inherently spread.

You don't need any randomization or cone of fire here.

I don't understand what's so bad about having a delayed conversion? It will effectively reduce the RoF of snipers and make pinpoint snapshots in CQB spread out randomly. That's all you're asking for, isn't it?

Edited by Shredhead, 15 November 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Lefty Lucy, on 15 November 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

And of course option 2 makes medium mechs that spam light weapons completely worthless. It would make AC2s completely worthless, as you could only ever consistently fire on e AC2. It would pretty much make slow-firing, heavy-hitting weapons the only useable guns.

I might actually consider the AC/2 to qualify as a non-pinpoint weapon, to be honest. One shot every 0.5 seconds for 2 damage - I think that's kinda the "break even" point. But I only wanted a brief explanation, not a detailed run-down in what you could or must do.

[YueFei]

Shredhead, on 15 November 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

You talk like it is such a walk in the park to hit certain parts while both opponents are moving and twisting. It's not. Lasers and SRMs are, due to spread or the ability to adjust while firing, way more forgiving weapons. Imagine a Hunchback 4P vs a Hunchback 4G. Who is more likely to win a CQB? It's the 4P because once he is through the armor he is much more likely to apply damage to the target area than the 4G. The advantage of the 4G is that he will most likely be through the armor earlier than the 4P.

The Hunchback 4G is more likely to win the CQB, because his damage is pin-point. The Hunchback 4P uses *lasers*, which the Hunchback 4G can *reflexively* twist to spread the damage out, making the 4P's damage highly inefficient. At close range, the AC/20 projectile strikes too quickly for the Hunchback 4P to twist out of the way, and the Hunchback 4G can in fact just wait for the Hunchback 4P to twist to face him before letting loose with an AC/20 shell, and then defensively twisting after the Hunchback 4P starts shooting. Plus, the Hunchback 4P will find itself quickly overheating in the sustained combat of CQB.

The Hunchback 4P actually should try to stay back farther away about 400 meters and wear the Hunchback 4G down with hit-and-run. That's far enough out that he can dodge or defensively twist against the AC/20 shells, and find cover to cool off behind safely.

Edited by YueFei, 16 November 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[Shredhead]

YueFei, on 16 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

The Hunchback 4G is more likely to win the CQB, because his damage is pin-point. The Hunchback 4P uses *lasers*, which the Hunchback 4G can *reflexively* twist to spread the damage out, making the 4P's damage highly inefficient. At close range, the AC/20 projectile strikes too quickly for the Hunchback 4P to twist out of the way, and the Hunchback 4G can in fact just wait for the Hunchback 4P to twist to face him before letting loose with an AC/20 shell, and then defensively twisting after the Hunchback 4P starts shooting. Plus, the Hunchback 4P will find itself quickly overheating in the sustained combat of CQB.

The Hunchback 4P actually should try to stay back farther away about 400 meters and wear the Hunchback 4G down with hit-and-run. That's far enough out that he can dodge or defensively twist against the AC/20 shells, and find cover to cool off behind safely.

Heat is pretty equal between both mechs. Also, at a range around 400 meters the 4G can absolutely play to its strengths. 16 Damage pinpoint, travel time is not that relevant. Add to that its two med lasers. The 4P has to get in close, so it can profit more from twisting and its firepower.
Are we both playing the same game? I mean, try it out for yourself, get close to pinpoint damage builds and start twisting. CQC is a delicate dance of twisting away, waiting for the enemy to shoot, then turn back and wait till he turns around again to expose his weak points. With lasers you have a chance to deliver the damage to the spot every single time he turns to face you. If you misjudge the timing for an AC shot, it's wasted.
If you are not able to follow my explanation through personal experience, I highly recommend more training before you cry for a nerf once again! It's becoming quite obvious that cries for nerfing often come from inexperienced players who have no clue about the abilities of their mechs and the game mechanics. No offence.