120 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Thorn Hallis, on 27 November 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

The Battletech Master Rules allow those Omniweapons to be modified to fit into a standart 'Mech, though this modification is not reversable (unless of course these rules weren't rewritten by Catalyst).

I don't think it has been changed, and I agree that it would be a sensible thing to continue to have in the rules!

[FireDog]

I hope PGI looks at the way MekTek's MW4 found a sort of balance between Clan and IS Tech.
http://www.sarna.net..._4:_Mercenaries
I mostly played on the Pure Tech Servers and saw both Clan and IS mechs regularly being fielded in matches (granted a post invasion/FedCom Civil War time line). Per lore, for the most part Clan weapons were lighter, longer ranged and ran hotter. And many players including myself did use Clan chassies, however most also used their favorite IS mechs as well. Where the MekTek IS mechs started to shine was due to the IS tech developing greater variety of specialized mechs and weapons. While most the basic weapons were sub-grade, the IS guns while heaver had greater rates of fire. the IS Cap-PPCs and X-pulse lasers hit harder than the clans equivalents, and the IS developed mini-gauss, hyper-ACs and RAC2s balanced the clan's PPC and Er-large Lasers much like the IS Thunder missiles balanced with the Clan's Adv-Tech-Missiles. Chassies like the MekTek's IS Tenchi and Clan Aries, being equivalent light strike heavies, found balance with each other with each able to beat the other in "their" game. Anyway I really hope everyone at PGI realizes this wheel has been invented before with great success and has the wisdom to put aside any preconceptions and examine the options others discovered before them.

[RagingOyster]

Lucian Nostra, on 18 November 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

They've already stated that Clan mechs won't be more powerful but different in some way

and do you really think they'll actually make it into the game? I really don't expect it to ever happen

LauLiao, on 18 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Probably something stupid like having the weapons have double the range but half the damage or something.

Quit being so pessimistic. No one here wants to hear you whine.

Karl Streiger, on 19 November 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

The problem is that wouldn't happen.
You remember the rise of fire power simple by the fact or DHS and Endosteel available?
And at this time XL tech, Gauss, ERPPCs.... was allready ingame.

To be shock and awe - PGI never should have allowed Star League Technology - and if - only one technology per Mech and Master Skill.
The will hardly be faster, nor better armored nor will have better heat dissipation

Totally wrong. Why would PGI not allow tech that was readily available at the time? Everything you mentioned was found in the Helm memory core. Regardless, Clan tech was still better in every way than what the IS had available. Even the Com Guards weren't on-par with them and they actually did have SLDF gear. A Clan ERPPC was lighter, smaller, had longer range and did better damage for less heat than the IS ERPPC. The things you mentioned would do absolutely nothing to lessen the shock value of the Clans.

mp00, on 19 November 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

It was stated that it would be 12 IS mechs vs 10 Clan mechs. Of coarse that could have changed..

That was never stated anywhere. It was fan speculation, and was never confirmed or denied by the devs. Don't spread false info, people will believe it.

[RagingOyster]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 November 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

I for one do want to face this kind of mismatch. That is the enemy I came here to beat!

Joseph Mallan, on 25 November 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

I don' have a problem with that cause I have learned my limits. After that, all the bragging in game doesn't mean a thing.

That's all well and good, and you sure sound like some wise old master (I think that's what you're going for, at least) but you just straight up contradicted yourself. Not only that, but I seriously doubt you or anyone is actually O.K. with getting roflstomped over and over by Clanners. I sure would not be.

It's why the Com Guards were always my favorite; cuz they finally stonewalled the tank-born invaders and gave the finger to their ridiculous "warrior race"

[Vanguard319]

This is just speculation on my part. These were things I suggested in other threads, and who knows, they seem like fair methods to balance out clan mechs.

- Pilot trees for clan mechs take longer to master, (due to an omnimech being any variant) or provide reduced returns on perks (based on the reasoning that clan mechs are better tuned out of the factory than thier IS counterparts and a higher technology base)

- Clan weapons retain their range, damage, heat, and bulk profiles, but have less health, or are slightly more susceptible to critical hits once their armor has been breached.

- Clan Ferro-fibrous armor retains it's protective properties along with it's weight and bulk, Clan Endo-Steel retains it's bulk, but is slightly weaker, resulting in clan mechs having tougher armor, but once the armor has been breached, they are more susceptible to internal damage.

- Clan XL engines remain unchanged, as they are more survivable than their IS equivalents, but not as survivable as a standard engine.

- In addition, ALL clan tech weapons, components, and upgrades cost 50~75% more than their IS equivalents. (Due to rarity and availability as salvage on the market) If repair and rearming costs are ever reinstated, clan components could cost 50% more, (ammunition costs would remain identical however) to repair or require more time to repair.

I think that any of these ideas could be used to balance out clan mechs without making them exceedingly over-powered, It would also give Inner sphere mechs a few advantages (easier to level, with higher returns, more resilient weapons/internals but heavier weapons, and cheaper.) while giving clan mechs advantages of thier own (long range, high damage lighter weight weapons, and strong armor but slower to level up, with lower returns, less resilient weapons/internals, and greater cost.)

[Karl Streiger]

RagingOyster, on 27 November 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Totally wrong. Why would PGI not allow tech that was readily available at the time? Everything you mentioned was found in the Helm memory core. Regardless, Clan tech was still better in every way than what the IS had available. Even the Com Guards weren't on-par with them and they actually did have SLDF gear. A Clan ERPPC was lighter, smaller, had longer range and did better damage for less heat than the IS ERPPC. The things you mentioned would do absolutely nothing to lessen the shock value of the Clans.

It was available? And were they common?
No all that StarLeague Tech was Rare - while the production of new weapons and technology did made an outburst after the arrival of the Clans - (after the Outreach conference) - it doesn't mean that from day to night the GaussRifle reintroduced 3040 by the FWL was available for all houses.

And the ClanTech in TT is only that good because the SL Technology is so much better - fighting with Tech 2 vs Tech 1 is fighting butter with a hot knife. The better clan tech was only the edge to have a chance vs IS units with SL technology.

So SL - Tech should be supperior - but look at MWO? Is the ER-PPC supperior? No, the ER-Large Laser? No - the GaussRifle? Not anymore. The UAC 5 - depends. SSRM? No.
So technology that should be supperior was nerfed - to be balanced. So the asumption is clear - Clan Tech will be nerfed until it is balanced.

There is another route anyhow: That route is called BattleValue: should have been introduced after the first QQ during the Closed Beta regarding the GaussCat.
QQ:
oh the Gauss is so superior over 2 AC 5s...or a AC 20... so instead of charge and HP tweaking -> increase the BattleValue congratulation - your Catapult is matched vs an Atlas.

Same with the PPC Stalker - 40 or 60 damage pinpoint - congratulation your Mech and a stock Commando are matched vs 2 Highlanders

[smokefield]

Quote

They should absolutely not be lore-faithful for Clan tech. I don't want 6-ton, 15-damage, no-minimum-range, 2-crit-slot PPCs. I don't want CERMLs that are basically 1-ton Large Lasers. I do not want LB20-Xes that can fit in a torso with an XL engine. I do not want XL engines that take up less space and are not destroyed by taking just one side torso out.

If the Clans are that busted, then it doesn't matter how they design the game. It will be unfair and nobody will pilot IS.

What is missing in this game is the feeling that you are piloting an 100 tons robot full of weapons, weapons that could blow an entire house in one salvo. With the nerfs and all the "balancing" we are close to playing now just a FPS..which is not the idea of this game.

What I want is that feeling - remember this :



What I think it could be done and that will fix a lot of present problems is expand the number of hit boxes per chassis for IS mechs and leave the same hit boxes as they are now for clan mechs. We have now 3 for torso, head, legs, arms. A good start... but- Inside these.. lets call them MAIN BOXES, we should have other boxes. Now i know that each weapon has its own hit point life and take an amount of slots..and after your armour its stripped the weapon can be destroyed..but its not this I have in mind - I want boxes that keep their shape even when no items are mounted there. You have 2 enery slots in one arm - if no armour is there any weapon mounted there will be hit and destroyed, no matter if you have one or 2 installed. but if you split the arm in 2 hitboxes you can have someone hitting your lower hit box that is empty cause you didnt mounted there anything...destry that hit box but you would stillhave the upper hit box where the weapon is functional. It will give mechs a higher survivability rate, it will increase the need to target and pick well where to hit a mech, it will add a lot of strategy and will bring the IS and clan mechs on a equal foot when speaking about pilot skills...making the nerfing of clan mechs unneeded...or not as bad as there are the talks now. - because you could have a clan mech with superior firepower vs a IS mech with inferior firepower but the result of the fight will depend a lot more (than it is now) of pilot skill and targeting. The clan mech would have a higher chance of losing its weapons that the IS, a higher rate of critical hits and the fight would be much more balanced.

the idea can be polished/improved but i think it is a good idea. (its not somethign that i thought for long time..just a moment idea i had when reading the quoted post and thinking what i am missing in this game...and i am missing that feeling ... )

[Karl Streiger]

smokefield, on 28 November 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

the idea can be polished/improved but i think it is a good idea. (its not somethign that i thought for long time..just a moment idea i had when reading the quoted post and thinking what i am missing in this game...and i am missing that feeling ... )

Its not only hitboxes - its internal components to:
why have a reactor always have 6 or 12 crits? A 100er Fusion as well as a 240er Fusion - both have the same size - no matter if you mount them into a 25t Mech(if possible) or a 80t Mech
Same about heatsinks - a double heatsink that occupy 25% of internal space of an Assault Mech must occupy the full torso of an Commando
I knew its LORE - and don't dare to tell me - I know - but I also know that the critical system was developed for a beer and pretzel game - for Pen & Paper and 2 dice 6. Its not even funny to keep that system for a modern computer game. Its not even nostalgic

[Borgadun]

Just to say it once:

CLAN mechs aren´t supirior. The Clans just had 200 years to make further advance in SL-tech taken with them. so they seem to be supirior. And due to their eugenic program had the most fearsome and skilled Pilots for Mechs, Aerofighters and Battlearmor.

If we now set that to MWO, we will reckocnise that we are all just humans, not having improved reflexes or something. Clan-tech will allow us, if availabel to all mechs and NOT just Omnimechs, to improve the combat-values and flexebility.

To my statemant above where I said Clan mechs aren`t supirior a small example:

The CLAN Daishi has at the same wight as an Atlas the same armorprotection. Both use Standard internal and plating. the only difference between those two is the use of different engines. Atlas 300S and Daishi 300CXL. So, you should be able to mount the same weight of weapons and equipment in both mechs if you exchange the 300S of the Atlas. But since the Daishi is an Clan-Omni-front Assaultmech you could install whatever, where ever you want.


And one thing to keep in mind: OMNI-TECH has a doubled price compared to standard "Hardwire" tech.

Just think of it, would you really pay 1.2 million C-Bills for a ERLL which produces more heat at the same bulk and weight with slightly more range? Or a UAC/20 which will produce 14 heat when fired in Ultra-mode?

Edited by Borgadun, 28 November 2013 - 03:10 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Borgadun, on 28 November 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

Just think of it, would you really pay 1.2 million C-Bills for a ERLL which produces more heat at the same bulk and weight with slightly more range? Or a UAC/20 which will produce 14 heat when fired in Ultra-mode?

As long as I can also buy Clan-DHS, yes.

[RagingOyster]

Karl Streiger, on 28 November 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

It was available? And were they common?
No all that StarLeague Tech was Rare - while the production of new weapons and technology did made an outburst after the arrival of the Clans - (after the Outreach conference) - it doesn't mean that from day to night the GaussRifle reintroduced 3040 by the FWL was available for all houses.

And the ClanTech in TT is only that good because the SL Technology is so much better - fighting with Tech 2 vs Tech 1 is fighting butter with a hot knife. The better clan tech was only the edge to have a chance vs IS units with SL technology.

So SL - Tech should be supperior - but look at MWO? Is the ER-PPC supperior? No, the ER-Large Laser? No - the GaussRifle? Not anymore. The UAC 5 - depends. SSRM? No.
So technology that should be supperior was nerfed - to be balanced. So the asumption is clear - Clan Tech will be nerfed until it is balanced.

There is another route anyhow: That route is called BattleValue: should have been introduced after the first QQ during the Closed Beta regarding the GaussCat.
QQ:
oh the Gauss is so superior over 2 AC 5s...or a AC 20... so instead of charge and HP tweaking -> increase the BattleValue congratulation - your Catapult is matched vs an Atlas.

Same with the PPC Stalker - 40 or 60 damage pinpoint - congratulation your Mech and a stock Commando are matched vs 2 Highlanders

Yes, both were available and both were common enough by 3050 to no longer be considered lostech. Not saying every mech in the IS was sporting Endo-steel and DHS, but since the GDL had disseminated copies of the Helm data all over the IS these technologies were at least fairly common.

Not sure what you're saying here. Structure your sentences better so people can understand your meaning. It sounds like you are saying Star League tech is better than Clan tech, which is wrong.

SL tech is superior. The ERPC is better than the PPC, ERLL is better than LL, Gauss is about the same, UAC/5 is better than AC/5 and SSRMs are most definitely better than SRMs. The trade off is all these weapons are either heavier, bulkier or generate more heat and that is all lore-accurate so no they were not nerfed, you just have to look at the trade-offs.

The last part is the only part i agree with. Mechs should be assigned a BV and drops should be balanced based on total BV, or at the very least matches should be made based on tonnage.

[Lucian Nostra]

Borgadun, on 28 November 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

Just think of it, would you really pay 1.2 million C-Bills for a ERLL which produces more heat at the same bulk and weight with slightly more range? Or a UAC/20 which will produce 14 heat when fired in Ultra-mode?

Uh What?

Er Large Laser 12 heat, 8 damage, 5 tons, 2 critical slots, ranges 1-7, 8-14, 15-19
Clan Er Large, 12 heat, 10 damage, 4 tons, 1 critical slot, ranges 1-8, 9-15, 16-25

So 25% more damage, 1 less ton and for MWO purposes somewhere around 180m more range.

Uac/20 14 heat? yeah cause it's spitting out 2 shells

of course I'd use em!

edit: added criticals, and I know mwo has changed the heat and damage but going by raw stats the clan er is far superior.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 28 November 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Lucian Nostra, on 28 November 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Uh What?

Er Large Laser 12 heat, 8 damage, 5 tons, 2 critical slots, ranges 1-7, 8-14, 15-19
Clan Er Large, 12 heat, 10 damage, 4 tons, 1 critical slot, ranges 1-8, 9-15, 16-25

So 25% more damage, 1 less ton and for MWO purposes somewhere around 180m more range.

Uac/20 14 heat? yeah cause it's spitting out 2 shells

of course I'd use em!

edit: added criticals, and I know mwo has changed the heat and damage but going by raw stats the clan er is far superior.

Though, imagine if PGI were to simply make each Clantech weapon equal to the IS Tech 2 counterpart in each field except weight and criticals?

MWO IS ER Large Laser

• Weight: 5.0 tons
  
• Volume: 2 criticals
  
• Damage per salvo: 9
  
• Heat per salvo: 8.5
  
• Beam duration: 1.00 seconds
  
• Recycle time: 3.25 seconds
  
• Optimal range: 675 meters
  
• Maximum range: 1350 meters

Proposed MWO Clan ER Large Laser

• Weight: 4.0 tons
  
• Volume: 1 critical
  
• Damage per salvo: 9
  
• Heat per salvo: 8.5
  
• Beam duration: 1.00 seconds
  
• Recycle time: 3.25 seconds
  
• Optimal range: 675 meters
  
• Maximum range: 1350 meters

The same could be done for the Clan ER-PPC, Clan LB-X series, Clan UAC series, and so on.

Likewise, the later IS counterparts to the Clan gear (e.g. the other-size ER Lasers, the rest of the LB-X and Ultra autocannons, and so on) would have the same performance specs as the Clan gear (which would be based on the TT values for the IS gear) but would be slightly heavier and/or bulkier.

[Lucian Nostra]

it's very possible and probable Strum, I don't see clan tech being what it really is in mwo. That or like stated in the interview with the former catalyst guy who's now working with pgi. short range hard hitting guns..not really a fan of hid vision of the clans

[Haakon Valravn]

Now here's an original idea: Keep the armor as the armor, the weapons as the weapons, the ammunition counts as the ammunition counts.

[Sinthrow]

One thought to help balance clans is in game play.
No target sharing.
No ecm mechs.
No paperdoll damage display.
No modules.
At any one time 2 clan mechs can not lock the same target.
There can be more the one way to balance the game. Any of these or none of them could help balance the game.
But the biggest way to balance IS to Clans at least in CW is the Economy and logistics. What does it Cost if you loose even one Clan Mech. how long to replace it. a 12 to 2 victory for the clan team is really a loss. and counts as such in stats and income.
Dont stay in the box
There could be lots of ways to make this work
darn clanners anyway.. piffts

[CyclonerM]

Sinthrow, on 28 November 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

No ecm mechs.

Mr. Hellbringer would share with you his idea of "No ecm".

Quote

No paperdoll damage display.
No modules.

These i do not understand.

[Vanguard319]

By that logic, Clan tech just becomes the new endgame equipment. Considering anyone who has been playing MWO for awhile probably has at least a few mechs with Star League tech by now, the Technology gap probably isn't as horrible as the naysayers are claiming, especially when you consider clan tech traditionally generates more heat than their IS counterparts. You have stronger, lighter weapons, but you have to mount more heat sinks to keep your heat under control.

Now that I think about it, that could be one possibility PGI has considered to keep clan mechs from being over-powered.

[smokefield]

i still think that this could work :

IS mechs - dedicated weapon slots, hit-boxes splitted per slot (so more hitboxes, harder to kill in battle)
clan mechs - omni spots, hit-boxes as they are now (big as an entire mech part..easier to crit weapons, easier to kill the mech)

you take a clan mech you can put there more weapons but they can be destroyed much more easy that IS if they work on those split hit bixes.

[Karl Streiger]

Vanguard319, on 28 November 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Considering anyone who has been playing MWO for awhile probably has at least a few mechs with Star League tech by now, the Technology gap probably isn't as horrible as the naysayers are claiming, especially when you consider clan tech traditionally generates more heat than their IS counterparts. You have stronger, lighter weapons, but you have to mount more heat sinks to keep your heat under control.

Now that I think about it, that could be one possibility PGI has considered to keep clan mechs from being over-powered.

Hm - depends on the XL engine: when Clan_Mechs are not destroyed by side torso destruction or other penalties happen. All ClanMechs will have XL. Plus the smaller size of Clan Heatsinks -> you can mount 1 in the legs and 1 in the CT. You can have 5 DHS in the side torso with XL and 6 without XL.

Example:
STK-3F
With Clan Tech:
You may be able to mount an 340 XL engine - and at least 34 DHS. Roughly the same heat capacity and dissipation of this guy:
AS7-D

Given the current heat for a ER-Large Laser -> you dissipate the heat for 1 ERLarge in 2 seconds.

You also can mount 2 ER-PPCs but limiting he heat sinks to 30 DHS (wouldn't be a problem to add ES- and increase the engine rating)
So yes you can mount more weapons - but on the other hand you also can add more heatsinks. And if you can mix Clan Heatsinks with IS chassis - the IS DHS will be obsolete like the SHS are now.